Quality of Canadian urbanism

[ue]

Perhaps it's the lack of travel (especially city travel) due to covid, but I was recently in Calgary and it got me thinking about the state of Canadian urbanism in a few different ways. I thought this would be a decent place to articulate my thoughts that arose out of that visit with regards to Prairie urbanism.

It had been a few years since I did a proper visit of Calgary, and so a lot of things really stuck out to me, especially from living in Winnipeg and Edmonton. I'll preface this by saying that Winnipeg probably has the nicest extant urbanism on the Prairies, and in many ways it feels like an improvement upon Edmonton, which has a very gauche urban form.

Now, that being said, things have improved a lot in Edmonton over the past decade. Massive LRT expansions have been undertaken and new landmarks have risen. The new Walterdale Bridge is a great example of a nice new landmark. Despite my grievances over subsidizing millionaires and aiding in gentrification, the Ice District has made downtown busier and the architecture is pretty good. Edmonton now has the tallest building outside of Toronto in Canada. Major brownfield sites on Whyte Ave have filled in and Strathcona in general feels more urban and built up. Legalizing garden suites is adding new forms of density to the city, too. But, there's still a lot of tacky or cheap stuff being built. Manchester Square is probably the most famous recent example.

Calgary, by contrast, feels a step ahead of Edmonton. But it always has, at least in recent memory. And while Edmonton has pushed ahead and made strong improvements, shedding a lot of its parochial qualities, Calgary has also been pushing forward. Perhaps Edmonton has caught up to the Calgary of a decade ago, but Calgary kept pushing ahead.

The first thing that really stunned me in Calgary was being in Inglewood. I've been familiar with the area for a decade or so, but it is markedly different now. 9th Ave is a bona fide vibrant main street now, competing with 17th Ave in the Beltline and 10th and Kensington Rd in Kensington. It is very busy, and maybe that's dramatic because despite the quality of Winnipeg's urbanism, it really does not have vibrant main streets in the same way.

While I do think Edmonton's Whyte remains the best main street on the Prairies, 17th is not very far behind, and has things that remind you more of Vancouver or Toronto than Edmonton, like an urban-format Urban Fare/Canadian Tire combo. As well, Edmonton really lacks areas like Kensington and Inglewood. 124th Street is not on the same level. 104th Street, despite being a lovely street after decades of public investment, isn't that busy outside of events.

And on top of that, Calgary continues building amazing new landmarks. The new Central Library puts Edmonton's to shame. The city has built 3 new premium towers >220m in the past decade, all far more distinctive than what you generally see in Toronto or Vancouver these days. There's the Peace Bridge. The infill in areas like Bridgeland is pretty good, too. The public realm improvements along the Bow River are also really beautifully put together. Outside of the very exaggerated downtown, Calgary doesn't really feel bigger than Edmonton, but it does feel like a more prominent city with a better urban experience.

With regards to Winnipeg urbanism, its edge is really only due to the sheer wealth of pre-war urbanism it has. What it has done in recent decades in terms of urban policy is often quite abhorrent. Closing Portage and Main to pedestrians, turning main streets into quasi-highways, racist pro-development governance, and laughable public transit. If you can never take the bus and simply walk or bike everywhere, Winnipeg is pretty alright if you live centrally. Because of the quality of pre-war urbanism, Winnipeg has a huge leg up, and its urban experience is probably closest to what Easterners would resonate with. You just don't get places like the Exchange, Wolseley, Point Douglas, and Wellington Crescent in Western Canada. Well, maybe you could make some analogues in Vancouver, but that's about it.

Not only is Winnipeg's legacy urbanism great, the broader urban experience is also awesome. By that I mean the feel on the ground, the people that make up the city, and just the experience of being on the ground in the city. The fact that Winnipeg is still an awesome urban experience despite awful policies for decades is both a testament to the breadth of pre-war urban ambition and expansiveness as well as its strong sense of community. While Calgary may be gorgeous and Edmonton certainly.... tries, Winnipeg is cool in a way no other Prairie city is. It's got strong grassroots organizing and a great arts community along with just a lot of cool shit everywhere. I don't know how else to describe it. It also helps that despite terrible urban planning, the contemporary architecture, while usually less flashy than Calgary, is generally a notch above Edmonton.

What's frustrating is that it has all of these perks, in its existing built form and its communities, but the powers that govern it have an extremely suburban, classist, and racist ideology that regularly shit on all of that. Edmonton and Calgary can have the latter two, and Edmonton was very suburban-oriented until recently, but Winnipeg feels more extreme. Perhaps that's because Winnipeg is an extreme place. It has the opulence of Wellington Crescent and the extreme poverty of the North End. The City Beautiful of Assiniboine Park and the stubby South of Portage office blocks.

As I briefly mentioned, Winnipeg's main streets aren't as vibrant as many of Calgary's or Edmonton's Whyte. But it has great cohesive communities like Wolseley, with gorgeously maintained old homes and apartments and the cutesy amenities on Westminster. The closest I can think of in Alberta to this is perhaps Edmonton's Highlands, but, aside from the river valley at its edge (which is more impressive than the Assiniboine), it isn't quite as good, I'd argue. The West End of Winnipeg has decently busy main streets and amazing food that the more yuppie oriented 17th or (increasingly) Whyte could only dream of.

All this said, I think my recent visit to Calgary put into perspective just how far that city has pushed ahead. While it doesn't have the steeples of St Boniface or the pre-war apartment blocks of West Broadway, after a while, the high quality recent investments in infrastructure and urbanism add up. Couple that with that city's ambitiousness and I don't think Winnipeg necessarily objectively offers the best urban experience on the Prairies anymore. In some respects it does, especially if you're looking for a different, more lived-in city, but there's too much that Calgary has done in recent decades that cannot be ignored. If anything, Calgary is evidence that you can have a minimal amount of pre-war urbanism and still produce a nice, attractive, vibrant city. You don't have to be content with a Phoenix-type city.

In Saskatchewan, Regina and Saskatoon are surprisingly nice cities. Well, I think for those in the know, Saskatoon is well-regarded, but Regina, which until last year, I hadn't visited in a very long time, kind of surprised me. It's still probably my least favourite of the 5 "major" Canadian Prairie cities, but it isn't a dramatic drop-off. Transitional is a nice high-density residential neighbourhood with a surprising number of pre-war apartment blocks. Cathedral is cute and exudes some Wolseley-esque qualities. The Warehouse District is kinda cool.

Saskatoon still feels a notch above it, though. For one thing, Regina just doesn't really have major urban main streets outside of the core. Saskatoon, by contrast, has Broadway, 20th West, 33rd West, and Central Avenue. Now, not all of these are super vibrant, but they give the city a lot more to work with than Regina. On top of that, it has new major public investments like the Rivers Landing, including the Remai Modern, which is a fine art museum, something you would not expect for Saskatchewan.

Anyways, these are just my observations from the Prairies. I could also talk about Ontario, Quebec, BC, and Atlantic Canada, but I thought I'd open the floor up to others for their thoughts on the quality of urbanism in various Canadian cities.

[hipster duck]

Good post! I hope more people reply.

Winnipeg sounds like a rustbelt American experience in a good way. More than anything, I'm fascinated about how these places - despite all the obstacles thrown at them - attract very inventive people who are bursting with civic pride. There aren't many of them - they may be <1% of the metro population - but they make all the difference and can make just about any place exciting and absorbing.

I have a soft spot for Edmonton since I spent a summer there when I was in university, and also found the place to be crawling with characters. Maybe that's changed? Edmonton doesn't have good bones, but it has a bit of an Angeleno vastness to it, especially on the north side along streets like 118 Ave. NW. All that street needs is more people and better transit.

Calgary definitely feels bigger than Edmonton and doesn't make the same number of mistakes. I'm impressed with the calibre of their arts projects, and how they've just put all their public realm effort into making their riverfront sing. Calgarians remind me of what Torontonians used to be like: insecure, maybe a little haughty, but ambitious and with a hustle to be recognized and to make it into the big leagues with legitimate accomplishments. We can scoff at those things, but cities that think that way eventually succeed, especially in Canada, where we have a short memory, we don't venerate things, and we don't let cities rest on their laurels.

[Kilgore Trout]

One thing that Covid has underlined is how much space cars take up in our cities. I say that the pandemic has emphasized this because, for the first time, we've been seeing mass pushback against these auto-dominated spaces, because there is a more urgent need for places where people can do things outdoors. Cities like Vancouver and Toronto have gotten Montreal-style parking spot patios for the first time, but here in Montreal, it seems increasingly absurd to have these shack-like wooden structures when the alternative would be much wider sidewalks with permanent spaces for large patios.

That's just one example. But throughout Canada, there needs to be a reckoning with how much space is taken up by cars. Not just on a few streets here and there but everywhere. Even the suburbs. Last time I was in Calgary, I was reminded of just how densely built new subdivisions are. They're not so different from inner city Toronto in terms of how closely packed together the houses are. And yet they're completely car-oriented, despite the fact that they could easily become more walkable and bikeable if the default mode of urban planning wasn't to accommodate cars at all costs.

[ue]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Good post! I hope more people reply.

Winnipeg sounds like a rustbelt American experience in a good way. More than anything, I'm fascinated about how these places - despite all the obstacles thrown at them - attract very inventive people who are bursting with civic pride. There aren't many of them - they may be <1% of the metro population - but they make all the difference and can make just about any place exciting and absorbing.

I have a soft spot for Edmonton since I spent a summer there when I was in university, and also found the place to be crawling with characters. Maybe that's changed? Edmonton doesn't have good bones, but it has a bit of an Angeleno vastness to it, especially on the north side along streets like 118 Ave. NW. All that street needs is more people and better transit.

Calgary definitely feels bigger than Edmonton and doesn't make the same number of mistakes. I'm impressed with the calibre of their arts projects, and how they've just put all their public realm effort into making their riverfront sing. Calgarians remind me of what Torontonians used to be like: insecure, maybe a little haughty, but ambitious and with a hustle to be recognized and to make it into the big leagues with legitimate accomplishments. We can scoff at those things, but cities that think that way eventually succeed, especially in Canada, where we have a short memory, we don't venerate things, and we don't let cities rest on their laurels.

Thanks!

Winnipeg definitely has some Rust Belt vibes, although I think Hamilton and Windsor are better analogues to the Rust Belt. Winnipeg just has some deep Midwest/Plains vibes. It could be Omaha. Or Milwaukee. Winnipeg didn't really de-industrialize in the same way that the Rust Belt did - it still has a lot of manufacturing and processing.

There's also a provincialism and a defeatist attitude that permeates in Winnipeg in many respects that reminds me of Edmonton 10-20 years ago. Actually, aside from all the old stuff, Winnipeg's vibe reminds me of Edmonton in the '00s. Kind of hungover from past glory days still (for Edmonton it was the 1970s-1980s, for Winnipeg it is the 1900s-1910s), fairly small town/suburban in mindset, while you're starting to see more projects occur again indicating that the nadir is over.

But there is, as you mention, a lot of people in Winnipeg content with being there and enjoying what it offers while trying to make it better. And that's great - Winnipeg is a very underrated city and has a lot of great things going for it. However, things I unknowingly took for granted previously in Edmonton also became apparent. Like the momentum. There's not much momentum in Winnipeg. You kinda gotta take it as it is. It's not trying to be Calgary like Edmonton is. Also the lack of a functional public transit system is a major turn-off. But, if you don't mind criss-crossing stroads every now and then, a lot of the city is very walkable. More than Edmonton or Calgary.

Another thing I alluded to in my original post that I think Winnipeg does surprisingly well is food. There's a real variety of (often) cheap, generous, good food in the city. It was a lot harder finding the same in Calgary, especially in the core, where it is very much like Downtown Toronto - either chains or high end pretentious spots. Obviously Calgary (and Edmonton) have great restaurants, but there's a lot more overpriced nonsense in both cities. I like Winnipeg's lack of pretense.

I also think there is something to be said for appreciating Edmonton's vulgar urbanism. You spend enough time looking at the utter absurdity of the city (or are reminded of it from out-of-towners getting gobsmacked) and you end up just kind of laughing it off and embracing it to some extent. There was a poster on here once that said there will inevitably be some future artistic movement obsessed with the kitsch of Edmonton. I think there's something to be said for embracing the ugliness of Edmonton's vernacular. As much as it tries to be Calgary (and Calgary tries to be Toronto), it often misses the mark, but it's a form of comedy in a way.

What is really intriguing is that Edmonton is the Alberta city with the more established arts roots, but the city's vernacular betrays aesthetic sensibilities in many ways. On top of that, while the gulf between Edmonton and Calgary in terms of the arts used to be much wider, I do think that has narrowed considerably in the past 10 years. The National Music Centre, the better exhibits at the Glenbow compared to the AGA, emergent local artists, festivals like Sled Island, and far better public art (in aggregate - Edmonton does have some nice public art) are emblematic of this. Edmonton's new AGA opened in 2010 and after a few years, the quality of exhibits started going downhill with a lack of funding. A lot of local galleries have also closed in the past 5-7 years. The new RAM is honestly kind of boring for what it is.

It's also really weird how much worse Edmonton's 'bones' are compared with Calgary's. Now, Calgary has been given a huge leg up with some nice infill and public realm improvements, but still. There aren't any Inglewoods lying around. And yet, both cities are and have been almost in constant lockstep population-wise since the 1890s. Edmonton didn't have a smaller pre-war footprint than Calgary (in fact it was a bit larger back then) so it definitely had an extent of pre-automobile era urbanism comparable to Calgary. While Whyte Ave looks nicer than 17th in general (aided by the frontier-ish old buildings), the other main streets in Edmonton are pretty ugly except 97th Street. Jasper Ave, especially west of 109th is a stroad with little architectural value along it (although it is improving). 124th Street is a very odd hodgepodge of architecture. Alberta Avenue (118th) is quite shabby. 109th Street would be forgettable if not for its proximity to the UofA. Comparatively, 1st Ave NE in Bridgeland, 10th and Kensington in Kensington, 9th Ave in Inglewood, 8th Ave downtown, and 4th St in Mission are pretty nice. Sure, there's shabbier main streets like 33 Ave SW in Marda Loop, Centre St in Crescent Heights, and Bowness Road, but it's not quite as stark as in Edmonton where it's Whyte, 97th, and then the rest. The Beltline is also a better high-density residential urban neighbourhood than Oliver.

I like your comment about Edmonton having a feeling of a sort-of 'Angelino vastness'. Winnipeg and Calgary are also sprawly, but in Edmonton it hits different. All those shoulder roads in the 1940s-1960s residential neighbourhoods along major arterials definitely help this sense. And just how the city is an enormous grid with generously sized streets.

I also like your remark regarding Calgary's haughty-but-ambitious drive. It's impressive. There's a real positivity and energy to Calgary that even Edmonton, despite shedding its previous parochialisms to some extent, lacks. It's dynamic. And even though it is in the same rung as Ottawa and Edmonton in terms of size, there's a reason it is often the next thought of city after Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver, and is the closest thing to a "big city" for the Prairies. People are sometimes surprised Edmonton is significantly bigger than Winnipeg. People don't make that mistake with Calgary.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

One thing that Covid has underlined is how much space cars take up in our cities. I say that the pandemic has emphasized this because, for the first time, we've been seeing mass pushback against these auto-dominated spaces, because there is a more urgent need for places where people can do things outdoors. Cities like Vancouver and Toronto have gotten Montreal-style parking spot patios for the first time, but here in Montreal, it seems increasingly absurd to have these shack-like wooden structures when the alternative would be much wider sidewalks with permanent spaces for large patios.

That's just one example. But throughout Canada, there needs to be a reckoning with how much space is taken up by cars. Not just on a few streets here and there but everywhere. Even the suburbs. Last time I was in Calgary, I was reminded of just how densely built new subdivisions are. They're not so different from inner city Toronto in terms of how closely packed together the houses are. And yet they're completely car-oriented, despite the fact that they could easily become more walkable and bikeable if the default mode of urban planning wasn't to accommodate cars at all costs.

That's an interesting comment. I agree that there has been a greater awareness for how much room is taken up for cars and these temporary measures to "take back" the city (expanded patios into parking stalls, 'open' streets) are showing a push back against that. Cycling has also surged in popularity. On the flip side, covid has caused a depression in public transit ridership as people feel more comfortable (or are encouraged to) drive instead. Cities have also felt emptier as people took to the outdoors in their province as an escape instead of flying to other cities or going to events and hang outs in their own city. A lot of people have even left cities altogether. I know places like the Kawarthas and Peterborough have had surges in real estate values due to the influx of Torontonians. It's a mixed bag imo.

[thebasketballgeek]

I agree with many of your points on Winnipeg. We (luckily) didn’t build a freeway in the city so there’s many more avenues of urbanism that can be provided. Despite our recently regressive policies it appears there is a slight shift towards reurbanizing the Inner city. Downtown Winnipeg is actually getting record numbers in investment and population growth it hasn’t seen in decades. The Downtown population for 2021 census will be around 19-20,000 people.

Osborne Street is getting 3 new very crucial developments (all 6 stories to keep great streetscape) that will inject further life into the area. Our public transit masterplan also really smartened up and is placing a grade seperated thoroughfares running through the centers of Westbound Portage and Northbound Main up to the perimeter (about 25km of brt infrastructure). Pair that with Polo Park high density residential plans this should really help establish Portage as a destination Main Street.

And then there’s the Railside at the Forks. This is probably my favourite (maybe 2nd) development that has ever occurred in the city. They’re replacing two massive surface parking at the Forks to make way for permanent residents and community facilities using very pedestrian friendly 3-6 story buildings adding at least 2,000 people to the area. It’s going to cement the Forks as one of the best sites in the whole country.

One more thing I want to point out is our suburbs are very slightly becoming more urban. Whether it’s through mid-high density infill such as the Kapyong Barracks (soon to be largest urban reserve in Canada), or Southwood Lands which on paper should be a game-changer for the U of M by adding 10,000 units in 120 acres it should be even more urban and walkable then our best neighborhoods in Osborne or West Broadway. Hell even developments like Bridgwater and Amber Trails have population densities hovering around 3,000 ppl/sq km (double our current density of 1,500 ppl/sqkm)

Winnipeg is densifying quite rapidly and 20 years from now we won’t even be able to recognize this place.

[ue]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I agree with many of your points on Winnipeg. We (luckily) didn’t build a freeway in the city so there’s many more avenues of urbanism that can be provided. Despite our recently regressive policies it appears there is a slight shift towards reurbanizing the Inner city. Downtown Winnipeg is actually getting record numbers in investment and population growth it hasn’t seen in decades. The Downtown population for 2021 census will be around 19-20,000 people.

Yeah, it's good that Winnipeg didn't build actual freeways. But it still pursued automobility in the cheapest ways possible by turning many main streets into quasi-highways. Portage west of Memorial is horrendous. Most of Main Street is too outside of the few blocks connecting the East and West Exchange. Osborne, Notre Dame, St Marys, Henderson, etc are all also not good for walkability. Furthermore, Winnipeg didn't produce expensive freeways to make car driving the most convenient, but did divest from transit and walking despite a lot of the city being built for it. As a result, Winnipeg is easiest to get around by car, but it isn't exactly a smooth process like it is in Alberta. I also have reservations with how the downtown 'revitalization' has been financed by recolonization and gentrification of BIPOC spaces by groups such as CentreVenture, but you are right, there is a lot more investment than a decade ago.

Osborne Street is getting 3 new very crucial developments (all 6 stories to keep great streetscape) that will inject further life into the area. Our public transit masterplan also really smartened up and is placing a grade seperated thoroughfares running through the centers of Westbound Portage and Northbound Main up to the perimeter (about 25km of brt infrastructure). Pair that with Polo Park high density residential plans this should really help establish Portage as a destination Main Street.

I agree there's some nice projects in the Osborne area, like ZU and 350 River. As it is, Osborne Village is kind of underwhelming for the city's premiere urban neighbourhood/main street. Corydon, for what it is, is much nicer, and although less dense, I prefer South Osborne as well. The streetscape and walkability of Osborne St in the Village is one of my main gripes (the other being that it's a relatively short stretch). It's one of the few ways into downtown from the South End, so there's a lot of traffic, which gets prioritized, such that you have cars zooming down pretty fast while the sidewalk is not that wide. Portage Ave at least has wide sidewalks.

The new 2040 transit master plan is pretty decent, I agree. My main criticism is that Winnipeg still isn't even considering LRT or streetcars, which I think would be a lot better than BRT in many parts of the city. I can see BRT as a stepping stone to that, but considering the decades this is expected to take to build out, we'll all be old or dead by the time that happens. It's frustrating when you see smaller cities like Kitchener-Waterloo and comparable cities like Quebec City and Hamilton proposing and constructing LRT. Calgary and Edmonton were smaller than Winnipeg now when their LRT systems were originally built as well. The new plan also doesn't really do much about the existing Blue Line iirc... which is quite a joke honestly.

And then there’s the Railside at the Forks. This is probably my favourite (maybe 2nd) development that has ever occurred in the city. They’re replacing two massive surface parking at the Forks to make way for permanent residents and community facilities using very pedestrian friendly 3-6 story buildings adding at least 2,000 people to the area. It’s going to cement the Forks as one of the best sites in the whole country.

I agree this is an intriguing project. It'll really upgrade the Forks imo into something of its own community rather than a tourist trap for suburbanites. Stuff like this, while less in-your-face than Calgary's projects, have the potential to push the needle back in Winnipeg's favour as the better urbanism, as it already has its strong legacy urbanism keeping it in high regard.

One more thing I want to point out is our suburbs are very slightly becoming more urban. Whether it’s through mid-high density infill such as the Kapyong Barracks (soon to be largest urban reserve in Canada), or Southwood Lands which on paper should be a game-changer for the U of M by adding 10,000 units in 120 acres it should be even more urban and walkable then our best neighborhoods in Osborne or West Broadway. Hell even developments like Bridgwater and Amber Trails have population densities hovering around 3,000 ppl/sq km (double our current density of 1,500 ppl/sqkm)

I had to look up the Southwood Lands development. It doesn't seem like much activity has been occurring on that one recently but it has a lot of potential. Reminds me of the Blatchford development's potential in Edmonton, on the site of the former City Centre Airport.

Kapyong Barracks looks mostly like a fancy strip mall, unfortunately. Unless it changed recently.

Bridgewater and Amber Trails suffer from the same problem that Kilgore mentioned - these new suburbs may be denser but they're still entirely built for cars, so it doesn't matter much in terms of urbanism.

Winnipeg is densifying quite rapidly and 20 years from now we won’t even be able to recognize this place.

I suppose I was a bit disingenuous when I said Winnipeg lacks momentum. There definitely is progress happening in the city, it just is a lot more subtle than in Alberta, generally. That doesn't mean great things aren't happening though and that those improvements won't continue to pile up to make Winnipeg better.

[ssiguy]

I have always loved The Peg. It has great bones and tons of character. It somehow feels "solid" and doesn't give the impression that regardless of the price of a commodity or real estate {ie Calgary & Vancouver}, the city will still be standing. Winnipeg has a real sense of permanence.

Calgary has indeed come a very long way and is a shinning example of how a high income and newer city can still build a vibrant and pleasant downtown, offer great urban experiences, and can offer a truly top-notch transit system.

I have never been a fan of Edmonton. It is of course good to see the city investing in it's downtown and encouraging downtown living to much success. That said, I don't think Edmonton will ever offer a truly urban environment like Calgary/Winnipeg do. Edmonton, despite all the development, doesn't have any "complete streets" in it's downtown. You have streets with shops/rest etc but the urbanism is disconnected. Those streets have a restaurant beside an office building beside a parking garage beside a government building beside a clothing store. In short, there is no street to just sit and watch the people go by.

Of course one thing that Calgary enjoys that none of the other Prairie cities do.........a low crime rate.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by ue

You just don't get places like the Exchange, Wolseley, Point Douglas, and Wellington Crescent in Western Canada. Well, maybe you could make some analogues in Vancouver, but that's about it.

I think we’ve all heard of the Exchange District, but can you summarize the key attributes of the other neighbourhoods? I looked up Wellington Crescent and I’m not sure what about it is unique?

As for the prairie cities - as a pedestrian I find them terrible, but they all have their unique charm. As each year goes by the sea of parking lots is reduced and generally speaking continuous positive urban change. People are straight forward and down to earth, there is little pretentiousness, with the possible exception of Calgary. That’s anecdotal though and also from friends who have lived there and relates more to the younger crowd in their 20’s and 30’s and the whole night club/I’m beautiful/look at me scene. I haven’t been to Saskatchewan for over a decade now, but watching many of the YouTube walking videos both Regina and Saskatoon are looking good. Makes me think that there is a sweet spot between 200,000 and 500,000. Small enough to be walkable, but large enough for there to be constant growth and change. At some point does anyone even notice or care if 5 new towers are going up in Vancouver or Toronto?

[ue]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I have always loved The Peg. It has great bones and tons of character. It somehow feels "solid" and doesn't give the impression that regardless of the price of a commodity or real estate {ie Calgary & Vancouver}, the city will still be standing. Winnipeg has a real sense of permanence.

I think that's a great way of putting it. Winnipeg's a classic and even if it never became the "Chicago of the North", it is a more matured, lived-in city than other Western Canadian cities (even similarly old Vancouver).

Calgary has indeed come a very long way and is a shinning example of how a high income and newer city can still build a vibrant and pleasant downtown, offer great urban experiences, and can offer a truly top-notch transit system.

Again, agreed.

I have never been a fan of Edmonton. It is of course good to see the city investing in it's downtown and encouraging downtown living to much success. That said, I don't think Edmonton will ever offer a truly urban environment like Calgary/Winnipeg do. Edmonton, despite all the development, doesn't have any "complete streets" in it's downtown. You have streets with shops/rest etc but the urbanism is disconnected. Those streets have a restaurant beside an office building beside a parking garage beside a government building beside a clothing store. In short, there is no street to just sit and watch the people go by.

Edmonton is a city that's easier to appreciate if you know the right people and are just physically there. Tokyo is kind of ugly, too, and although obviously on a totally different level compared to Edmonton, it is a city that people routinely say is enjoyable to be in, rather than to look at.

Winnipeg doesn't really have 'complete streets' downtown either. The bones are definitely there with Main, Portage, and Broadway, but they aren't exactly the best to be in if you're not driving. Jasper Ave in Edmonton is more pedestrian friendly. Or 104th St.

But you seem to be speaking to a different kind of 'complete street' - more in the urban fabric, vibrancy, and breadth of amenities. For that, I agree, Downtown Edmonton lacks that. But Downtown Winnipeg does too. The Exchange nudges Downtown Winnipeg in a better position with regards to that, as do the bones on Portage, Main, and Broadway, but retail isn't doing too well in Downtown Winnipeg.

Outside of downtowns, though, Edmonton does have Whyte Ave, which is very complete in terms of vibrancy, amenities, density, and quality of urbanism. Better than Osborne or Corydon imo.

Of course one thing that Calgary enjoys that none of the other Prairie cities do.........a low crime rate.

Actually, what I found really fascinating and unfortunate with Calgary is how the city's upper classes have really taken over the entire inner city, such that there are no low-income neighbourhoods centrally like pretty much every other city has. The East Village was the last one and now it's the city's shiny new play thing. Of course, there's still shelters and organizations in the area, so you have this stark dichotomy of well-to-do bourgeois residents and tourists clashing with unhoused and marginalized communities accessing amenities in the same streets, blocks, and neighbourhoods. This doesn't happen as much in Edmonton.

[ue]

Originally Posted by zoomer

I think we’ve all heard of the Exchange District, but can you summarize the key attributes of the other neighbourhoods? I looked up Wellington Crescent and I’m not sure what about it is unique?

As for the prairie cities - as a pedestrian I find them terrible, but they all have their unique charm. As each year goes by the sea of parking lots is reduced and generally speaking continuous positive urban change. People are straight forward and down to earth, there is little pretentiousness, with the possible exception of Calgary. That’s anecdotal though and also from friends who have lived there and relates more to the younger crowd in their 20’s and 30’s and the whole night club/I’m beautiful/look at me scene. I haven’t been to Saskatchewan for over a decade now, but watching many of the YouTube walking videos both Regina and Saskatoon are looking good. Makes me think that there is a sweet spot between 200,000 and 500,000. Small enough to be walkable, but large enough for there to be constant growth and change. At some point does anyone even notice or care if 5 new towers are going up in Vancouver or Toronto?

Sure.

Wolseley - gorgeously maintained pre-war homes, a very strong sense of community, a decent collection of pre-war apartment blocks, quaint shops along Westminster, the 'hippie' vibe, the leafy streets, the well-utilized front lawns and boulevard lawns. If you take one of these things out, sure, that one thing isn't unique, but altogether Wolseley is pretty unique for Western Canada. It doesn't have bustling streets but it is just very cutesy, quaint, and walkable. A very "comfortable" neighbourhood. It's easier to get in-person.

Point Douglas - the amount of industrial warehouses is what I'm primarily referring to, as well as the different Indigenous-led organizations and community both in and adjacent to the neighbourhood. You could arguably say some of this exists in Vancouver, but not really elsewhere on the Prairies.

Wellington Crescent - the extremely opulent mansions (though there's a lot of newer mansions that are pretty ugly) and especially the street itself. It's Winnipeg's toniest street and the airy, leafy-ness that it exudes has a real grandeur to it. The boulevard's median is pleasantly walkable and the street is quite manicured. It overall just exudes a grandeur and older opulence you don't generally find in the West. Mount Royal in Calgary and Glenora in Edmonton are the closest to it but they're a lot newer and less grand. Shaughnessy, the British Properties, and Point Grey are extravagant, but lack the wide, grand boulevard that is Wellington Cres.

[zoomer]

Thanks for the summary! It would be nice to see way more pics of neighbourhoods on SSP vs. the understandably more popular downtown shots. From a Victoria perspective, Wolseley sounds like our Fairfield neighbourhood, except it doesn’t have pre-war apartments but a lot of 1960’s to 1980’s apartments on the outer edge.

A comparable to Wellington Crescent here would be Rockland, with the oldest mansions in Victoria (many now are divided up into a dozen different units) set in a rocky hilltop over looking downtown. There are no wide boulevards but winding narrow streets with lots of old stones walls, giant redwood trees and natural gardens. You’ll find Craigdarroch Castle and the BC Government House here. The ‘newer’ mansion area of Victoria is Uplands and was first developed around 1910, and has more highly manicured gardens, but doesn’t have that same old world charm as Rockland.

[ue]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Thanks for the summary! It would be nice to see way more pics of neighbourhoods on SSP vs. the understandably more popular downtown shots. From a Victoria perspective, Wolseley sounds like our Fairfield neighbourhood, except it doesn’t have pre-war apartments but a lot of 1960’s to 1980’s apartments on the outer edge.

A comparable to Wellington Crescent here would be Rockland, with the oldest mansions in Victoria (many now are divided up into a dozen different units) set in a rocky hilltop over looking downtown. There are no wide boulevards but winding narrow streets with lots of old stones walls, giant redwood trees and natural gardens. You’ll find Craigdarroch Castle and the BC Government House here. The ‘newer’ mansion area of Victoria is Uplands and was first developed around 1910, and has more highly manicured gardens, but doesn’t have that same old world charm as Rockland.

No problem. I haven't been to Fairfield in Victoria, but I can see some similarity between Wolseley and Fernwood. However Wolseley feels more "complete" I guess. Similarly, the Highlands in Edmonton is less complete (as well as newer) version of it. Wolseley is kind of like Nelson, BC if Baker Street wasn't so commercial and instead was a small, mostly residential street with a few community-oriented businesses and amenities along it.

I think the thing with Wellington Crescent is not that it is above and beyond any other old mansion neighbourhood, just that it is a specific style of one that isn't replicated elsewhere in Western Canada. Rockland has some beautiful homes, but it's more like River Heights in Winnipeg, directly south of Wellington Crescent. Nice, old homes on normal residential streets with lots of greenery. They're both beautiful neighbourhoods, but the main thing that is distinctive with Wellington Crescent is the boulevard-style leisurely road that the mansions connect to. It's a lot roomier and airy. Not necessarily better than the Rocklands, but a different vibe.

[Architype]

Before you can discuss urbanism, you need to properly define it; here is a good definition:

"Urbanism is the study of how population of urban areas, such as towns and cities, interact with the built environment. It is a main component of specialties, for example, urban planning, is the practice focusing on the physical design and management of urban structures and urban sociology, which is the academic field of study. . . . Many architects, planners and sociologists explore how people live in densely populated urban areas."

https://www.ierek.com/news/index.php...-and-benefits/

[zoomer]

/\ interesting! I’ll have to come back to this and look for some videos of those neighbourhoods in Winnipeg to better understand them. Ironically, although this thread started as a prairie city comparison, in terms of heritage buildings and neighbourhoods that still remain, Victoria and Winnipeg have more in common. This thread is nothing without pics and videos, but that’s for another day - I’ll just share a couple I took of Rockland. What makes it unique is that these are not just normal residential streets, but carved around the rocky landscape and designed before cars, so in some areas the streets feel more like wilderness trails even though it looks over downtown.. kind of crazy actually.

Rockland and Terrace home by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Rockland home by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Mountbatten by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Motor vehicle prohibited by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

Rockland Home - April 11, 2021 11:32 a.m. by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

To have this right on the edge of downtown is pre

Craigdarroch Castle - Victoria BC by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

To have this on the edge of downtown is pretty cool.

[ue]

I thought about adding photos, but the original post was already eating up way more time than I had planned

And yeah, Rockland is very stunning. A different kind of old wealth area than Wellington Crescent, but beautiful.

Even though Winnipeg has a lot of similarity with various Prairie cities, in terms of 'oldness' it has way more in common with Vancouver and Victoria than Regina or Edmonton.

[Architype]

^ It's great to have wonderful historic structures like that one in Victoria, but how does it improve your quality of life? Is the space around it openly accessible public space? I think that one is fascinating, and I like it, but it's actually rather ugly materials, they could have done better.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Architype

^ It's great to have wonderful historic structures like that one in Victoria, but how does it improve your quality of life? Is the space around it openly accessible public space? I think that one is fascinating, and I like it, but it's actually rather ugly materials, they could have done better.

The streets themselves are publicly accessible, as are certain landmarks, like Craigdarroch. The presence of nature also breaks up the city a bit and provides some respite. It also provides insulation for people in the area. The beauty of the neighbourhood can itself be a net good and give people enjoyment, not unlike a nice garden or museum.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by ue

The streets themselves are publicly accessible, as are certain landmarks, like Craigdarroch. The presence of nature also breaks up the city a bit and provides some respite. It also provides insulation for people in the area. The beauty of the neighbourhood can itself be a net good and give people enjoyment, not unlike a nice garden or museum.

Thanks, I am in agreement; these preserved edifices, coupled with natural surroundings are important as oases in an urban environment. It's been proven that just a few minutes immersed in nature does wonders for the body & mind, such as lowering blood pressure, reducing stress, etc.

[SignalHillHiker]

Really beautiful post, ue.

I forget how long I lived out West but, once I left Ontario, most of that time was spent in Winnipeg (I moved home in 2012). I’m emotionally crippled when it comes to living somewhere else. It could take a month, could take a year, but eventually without fail my homesickness gradually eats away at my mental health and wellness and I end up bitter, resentful, unhappy and - in the end - genuinely depressed.

So when I remember Winnipeg, I mostly remember beige and the surface parking lots between my office building near Broadway and the little mall-like thing where I got lunch closer to Portage. But I remember the Exchange having beautiful buildings and empty streets, and Osborne Village having hideous buildings and full streets haha. And the people were great - so forgiving as I can’t imagine I was fun to be around (I’m not joking about depressed lol Very out of character for me behaviour). Had a buddy from there visit just the other day who was in port on a military vessel. Truly amazing people. Even an old boss looked me up when visiting here a few years ago. I don’t think I’ve ever been so undeservedly accepted.

So my point is I’m not a reliable witness. The world literally looks less colourful when you’re mentally unwell. And that unwellness would’ve eventually become as debilitating as it did in Winnipeg no matter where I lived on the mainland.

That said, I had to go on a business trip to Calgary and at the time it felt to me like what I imagine it feels like to cross from Juarez to El Paso. Everything just felt so clean, rich and lively in Calgary that I didn’t even notice urbanism versus suburbanism. And I met people from home at the pubs and felt… connected again. I didn’t have to put effort into choosing to raise a smile. So today I’m left with a rosy-eyed view of Calgary based on a single weekend Also, despite time in MTL and TO, it was my first time visiting someone’s home in a highrise condo with floor to ceiling windows and expansive views. I really loved that, especially compared to my second-floor apartment in a barn-shaped house on Rosedale.

I’m curious what it’d feel like to visit the prairie cities again, especially as a tourist instead of some kind of economic migrant lol