Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There ain't a lot of business travellers regularly flying to Florida from Ottawa. So on this route, they most definitely are competing for passengers.

Porter is up against AC, WestJet and Flair for all the domestic routes, and Flair, Sunwing and Transat for the vacation routes.

Either Porter's YOW hub strategy succeeds or they get eaten alive and YOW will never see an airline hub here again. There's really no in-between here.

We'll see if all the folks clamouring for YOW to get more services are working to put their money (and airline status) where their mouths are when Porter starts up.

When I say competing, I was more talking about price and market position.

Porter's prices out of YTZ are comparable to AC/Westjet out of YYZ for the same destinations. Part of the premium was the service - some alcohol included on flights for instance.

There's a reason why AC split into mainline and Rouge. Or Westjet has Swoop. I'm not sure Porter's best bet is to try and undercut Flair.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm not sure Porter's best bet is to try and undercut Flair.

Yield management will drive that. But if I'm a Porter planner looking at just 1-2 flights a week from Flair, I might just cuts my rates a tad on those days to compete.

In general, I'm still a bit skeptical on the sun destination strategy. A lot of the bigger carriers have tie ins with vacation companies, of which the flight is just a piece of it. Porter isn't as well positioned for this. I'd rather they focus on business destinations from YOW. But if they are going to compete in markets like FLL and MCO/SFB, they might as well go for the jugular and try and knock a weak competitor out of the ring.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by thewave46

When I say competing, I was more talking about price and market position.

Porter's prices out of YTZ are comparable to AC/Westjet out of YYZ for the same destinations. Part of the premium was the service - some alcohol included on flights for instance.

There's a reason why AC split into mainline and Rouge. Or Westjet has Swoop. I'm not sure Porter's best bet is to try and undercut Flair.

I think Porter will compete with Flair on service and convenience, not price. Having smaller planes will allow them to fly more frequently, allowing you to pick your dates of travel. Those who are really price sensitive and can work around Flair's schedule will pick them, but for many, Porter will likely be the better option, even if it costs a bit more.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There ain't a lot of business travellers regularly flying to Florida from Ottawa. So on this route, they most definitely are competing for passengers.

As irony would have it, when I was working for an Aerospace firm in Kanata, almost daily someone in my company was coming or going to one of our suppliers located 2km from the airport... in Melbourne, Florida.

YOW-MLB would have been unreal!

but I suppose we're the exception and not the rule

[phil235]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

As irony would have it, when I was working for an Aerospace firm in Kanata, almost daily someone in my company was coming or going to one of our suppliers located 2km from the airport... in Melbourne, Florida.

YOW-MLB would have been unreal!

but I suppose we're the exception and not the rule

Yeah, pre-pandemic there was also all sorts of convention activity in Orlando (though never any for me).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Yeah, pre-pandemic there was also all sorts of convention activity in Orlando (though never any for me).

Orlando is probably the most supportable destination in Florida. Just because of conventions. Not sure about FLL year-round though.

[ars]

Personally, I think the more choices we have for airlines and destinations, the better.

This may be my YOW PTSD speaking, but I feel like we're not in a position to be picky or rooting for certain airlines to fail here.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I think Porter will compete with Flair on service and convenience, not price. Having smaller planes will allow them to fly more frequently, allowing you to pick your dates of travel. Those who are really price sensitive and can work around Flair's schedule will pick them, but for many, Porter will likely be the better option, even if it costs a bit more.

This sounds deceptively simple. But I don't think it's that easy. The minute that yield management model comes up against that competitor that has low price, it will try and cut fares.

The only hope here is that Porter can pickup enough from the rest of us network to offset whatever discounts they need to offer from Ottawa, to compete. I'm rooting for Porter, but I have real doubts about this Florida thing. I can't see it working without some sort of tie in to another carrier and feed from outside Ottawa. 130 seats is a lot to fill.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ars

Personally, I think the more choices we have for airlines and destinations, the better.

This may be my YOW PTSD speaking, but I feel like we're not in a position to be picky or rooting for certain airlines to fail here.

It's a question of whether you want a short term bloodbath that saves you money for 1-2 years or robust competition that sees multiple airlines competing indefinitely.

If Porter succeeds, Ottawa may well have more direct flights than it has ever had. If Flair is the winner, we get fewer destinations and frequencies, but they will jump in occasionally to keep the big guys in check on the more lucrative routes.

Like I said earlier, I think this could be like JetBlue and Boston, for Porter and Ottawa. That's what I'm hoping for.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Orlando is probably the most supportable destination in Florida. Just because of conventions.

Not just conventions, but Disney is a popular destination all year long (though maybe not in June since the schools aren't out yet here but the crowd levels are high since many (most?) American schools are out).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not sure about FLL year-round though.

Especially once Brightline opens their extension to MCO (the station will be inside the new terminal). While certainly not as good as a direct flight to FLL, I would rather connect to Brightline than connect to another plane.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Especially once Brightline opens their extension to MCO (the station will be inside the new terminal). While certainly not as good as a direct flight to FLL, I would rather connect to Brightline than connect to another plane.

I have actually been thinking about Brightline and wondering if JetBlue could find a way to coordinate and cooperate with them. It should be up and running by the time Porter flies to Florida. And would be good way to allow anybody originating from Ottawa to get to Miami, West Palm Beach, Boca Raton and even Fort Lauderdale.

On the other hand, JetBlue serves a lot of Latin American destinations out of FLL. Many of which Porter might not be able to serve by itself. But maybe could fill up for a flight to FLL. This is why I think there's value in Porter really talking to JetBlue and getting a little more meat on the bones with that partnership.

[Truenorth00]

Honestly, I am waiting for AC's plans to come into YOW and crush Porter to be announced. I am still worried about that.

[YOWflier]

COVID is a blessing for PD in this regard; the piranhas will be busy rebuilding hubs so there'll be no better time for PD to sneak in and build their own.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

COVID is a blessing for PD in this regard; the piranhas will be busy rebuilding hubs so there'll be no better time for PD to sneak in and build their own.

I agree. My only worry is that by the time Porter receives their new jets, the piranhas will have recovered enough that they can mount an attack.

Timing is everything. Too early and they are burning money flying empty birds and too late and they have lost their competitive advantage.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yield management will drive that. But if I'm a Porter planner looking at just 1-2 flights a week from Flair, I might just cuts my rates a tad on those days to compete.

In general, I'm still a bit skeptical on the sun destination strategy. A lot of the bigger carriers have tie ins with vacation companies, of which the flight is just a piece of it. Porter isn't as well positioned for this. I'd rather they focus on business destinations from YOW. But if they are going to compete in markets like FLL and MCO/SFB, they might as well go for the jugular and try and knock a weak competitor out of the ring.

If I'm Porter, I fly YOW-TPA/MCO/FLL (the latter two year-round at least 4x & 3x weekly in summer) and compete just fine with AC (and WS to MCO and F8 to PIE & SFB) as demand for YOW-Florida has always exceeded nonstop supply. Then I think outside the box and do YOW-SRQ for the first time in 15 years and do YOW-PBI for the first time ever...maybe even go back to MLB on Saturdays, but this time with the E95. WS have YOW-RSW covered. I might also look at a seasonal YOW-ECP/PNS/MSY from say Feb-May...to go along with YOW-MYR 2-3x weekly during late winter/spring & fall golf seasons.

As we saw with AC & YUL's meteoric growth, so many unviable O&D only YOW city pairs become suddenly viable with a YOW hub with 30-40% connecting traffic.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Honestly, I am waiting for AC's plans to come into YOW and crush Porter to be announced. I am still worried about that.

I dunno if this is the same AC though. When are the even going to put YOW-LHR back on the map?

[Dominion301]

Today's departure count: 21 - including 8 departures after 1700. Just 6 Saturdays ago, there were no departures past 1645.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

I dunno if this is the same AC though.

It's a good question of what's left in their fleet. But mostly only the 767s are gone from Rouge. Their A220 count is up and the Max is back in service. Their fleet is actually much more modern than it was before Covid.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

When are the even going to put YOW-LHR back on the map?

Probably when the federal workforce gets back to traveling....

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Today's departure count: 21 - including 8 departures after 1700. Just 6 Saturdays ago, there were no departures past 1645.

Almost back to the good old days... at least there was 3 WestJet "jets" on the ground at the same time from 16:45 to 17:10!
(from YYC, YYJ, & YVR)

[sgera]

Calgary flight this morning completely full …