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  #141  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 1:30 AM
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Williamoforange Williamoforange is offline
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
That's a silly comparison, the map shows all of Cantley, down to Manotick and Cumberland Estates in the Urban area... totally wrong, and also parts of Greenbelt. Furthermore the Airport is in Ottawa but not in "Toronto"

You are comparing the inner urban area of a Metro city with population in the range of 7million vs Ottawa, of course as cities get bigger the inner regions will become more valuable - therefore more dense

A more useful comparison would be density inside greenbelt vs Toronto city proper... but even that is apples and oranges

Ottawa is more dense than Calgary or Edmonton (similar size cities) and pretty close to same densities as major German cities like Cologne and Hamburg
Here a better map, and even then ottawa even "urban" ottawa is not dense, https://censusmapper.ca/maps/591#13/45.3839/-75.7551

Cologne is an average 7,000/mile^2 (~27/hectare) and that includes farmland. Hamburg is 6300/mile^2 (24/hectare) and again farmland

Ottawa urban density which would be the near comparison number is as stated 1900/km^2, or 5,000/miles^2 (19/hectare) (i'm pretty sure the area covered by that number is not the areas shown on the linked map)

Also FYI, were not really denser then calgary Urban 2100/km^2 and were equal to Edmonton urban 1,855.5/km2
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  #142  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 1:58 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I'm curious how the urban boundaries are determined here. At least from what I know of Edmonton and Calgary, I find it hard to believe that Ottawa inside the Greenbelt isn't more dense.
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  #143  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 2:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I'm curious how the urban boundaries are determined here. At least from what I know of Edmonton and Calgary, I find it hard to believe that Ottawa inside the Greenbelt isn't more dense.
Yeah I wonder as well, as it stands I've got to assume its going by the "urban" boundary (ie built up areas) for each city/cities, so suburbs & etc included but not farmland.


Either way, the city of Ottawa is not exactly dense even inside the greenbelt. Parts of centretown sure
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  #144  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 2:52 AM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
That's an interesting question; where would we build rail yards for a Carling streetcar? Neilson Dairy would have been a logical spot IMO, but that's no longer available.
Thanks for the reply. Neilson Dairy would definitely have been a logical spot. Maybe by the time Carling has the density to support a street car there will be no spots left for a rail yard.
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  #145  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 3:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
It could, in theory, use the same LRVs as the Confederation Line, probably not paired though. I don't think they've said anything about a maintenance and storage facility. But then, I don't think Carling as LRT was set in stone.
That could work as the LRVs don't need to be grade separated. I agree that implementation of Carling is up in the air. There Seems to be more talk lately about it being only buses for a very long time.
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  #146  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Williamoforange View Post
Here a better map, and even then ottawa even "urban" ottawa is not dense, https://censusmapper.ca/maps/591#13/45.3839/-75.7551

Cologne is an average 7,000/mile^2 (~27/hectare) and that includes farmland. Hamburg is 6300/mile^2 (24/hectare) and again farmland

Ottawa urban density which would be the near comparison number is as stated 1900/km^2, or 5,000/miles^2 (19/hectare) (i'm pretty sure the area covered by that number is not the areas shown on the linked map)

Also FYI, were not really denser then calgary Urban 2100/km^2 and were equal to Edmonton urban 1,855.5/km2
Not sure if Ottawa inside the greenbelt is denser than urban Calgary and Edmonton, but it certainly has more pockets of high density outside of the downtown and inner urban areas, as you can see in census mapping you linked.
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  #147  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2021, 4:16 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I would trade all future O-Train expansion for 10 min bus service on every route at peak and all day on every major avenue.

In the video they say 30 min bus service running most of the day is the minimum. It's argue that in Ottawa, given our climate, that's 15-20 mins. And for real usability, 10 mins at peak.
You can barely get half-hourly service on the major routes in Ottawa, and 10-minute headways just turn into bus clusters because we are unwilling to sacrifice car priority, or even ask the bike lobby to put a little water in their wine, in order to improve non-LRT, non-Transitway bus transit.

If you are not a suburban transit commuter, if you are any other kind of transit user in any part of the city, you do not count. Never have. Don't now. Never will.
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  #148  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2021, 1:55 PM
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As time goes by, it's clearer everyday that the City needs to stop obsessing with the O-Train expansion to the far reaches of suburbia and start focusing the cheaper BRT projects that would ultimately be more beneficial to far more people.

The Kanata North BRT to the city's second (?) largest employment hub. The City could try to negotiate with high tech companies to run automated shuttles, using an exclusive RoW or just transit lanes.

The Baseline Transitway, a bypass to the Confederation Line along a corridor planned for major density, which would connect two rapid transit lines in four places.

The Cumberland Transitway, to try and encourage the south Orleans population to give up their cars more often and push for more density.

The O-Train would be more than adequate if it ended at Terry Fox and Eagleson. Spread the rest of available funds to other parts of the City. More transit for less money.
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  #149  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2021, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The Kanata North BRT to the city's second (?) largest employment hub. The City could try to negotiate with high tech companies to run automated shuttles, using an exclusive RoW or just transit lanes.
That would be a really interesting idea. Have the dedicated BRT RoW which routes like the 63/64 would still use, and then have automated shuttles that could use the RoW to carry people the last mile into the business park.

I wonder if that would be possible with current regulations, or maybe rather when it will be possible.
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  #150  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2021, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
The O-Train would be more than adequate if it ended at Terry Fox and Eagleson. Spread the rest of available funds to other parts of the City. More transit for less money.
I assume you mean "Terry Fox and Fallowfield." I agree with you 100% on extending beyond Terry Fox.

As for extending beyond Fallowfield, I am a little confused at the estimated cost. The extension really should be very cheap since the ROW already exists. It makes me wonder if they are bundling in extra costs that can't be avoided if they choose not to extend beyond Fallowfield (like the grade separation of Fallowfield with the VIA rail line and the construction of a southern MSF).
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  #151  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2021, 5:48 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is online now
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I assume you mean "Terry Fox and Fallowfield." I agree with you 100% on extending beyond Terry Fox.

As for extending beyond Fallowfield, I am a little confused at the estimated cost. The extension really should be very cheap since the ROW already exists. It makes me wonder if they are bundling in extra costs that can't be avoided if they choose not to extend beyond Fallowfield (like the grade separation of Fallowfield with the VIA rail line and the construction of a southern MSF).
The cost of the extension past Fallowfield includes the MSF, but not the VIA grade separation.

I believe there are some grade separations required in that extension though, but unrelated.
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  #152  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2021, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I assume you mean "Terry Fox and Fallowfield." I agree with you 100% on extending beyond Terry Fox.

As for extending beyond Fallowfield, I am a little confused at the estimated cost. The extension really should be very cheap since the ROW already exists. It makes me wonder if they are bundling in extra costs that can't be avoided if they choose not to extend beyond Fallowfield (like the grade separation of Fallowfield with the VIA rail line and the construction of a southern MSF).
Yes, Fallowfield. Sorry about that.

I'm also confused with the high cost of the extension past Fallowfield. It would be $285 million per kilometer vs $111 million per kilometer for Stage 2 of Confederation, a far more complicated project.
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  #153  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2021, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
The cost of the extension past Fallowfield includes the MSF, but not the VIA grade separation.
The MSF is likely a very significant portion of the extension cost. I can't imagine the MSF not being required if they only extend to Fallowfield though. It was probably bundled with the extension to Barrhaven Centre only because that is where it is located.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
I believe there are some grade separations required in that extension though, but unrelated.
I am assuming they would want to:
  • grade separate Berrigan Dr. and
  • extend grade separation under Marketplace Centre.
I can't imagine those being all that expensive as it is all cut and cover.
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  #154  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2021, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
The MSF is likely a very significant portion of the extension cost. I can't imagine the MSF not being required if they only extend to Fallowfield though. It was probably bundled with the extension to Barrhaven Centre only because that is where it is located.
Ya but, Stage 2 west also has a MSF at Moodie and it's cheaper with more tracks and stations, and even tunnels!
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  #155  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2021, 12:07 AM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
Ya but, Stage 2 west also has a MSF at Moodie and it's cheaper with more tracks and stations, and even tunnels!
Good Day.

Yes, indeed.... and the Stage 2 overall was ultimately more expensive than had been budgeted at this point in its timeline .vs. Stage 3 now.
So.... I can only hope and expect that Jimmy has instructed the Rail Office to seriously -overbudget- at this point in the dual expectation of
(1) previous history for Stage 1 and Stage 2 budgeting experience, and
(2) safety in sending the budget up the chain for 50-50-0 funding wherein the Feds and Prov are not hit with those 'unanticipated' budget overages at contracting.

Here's hoping !
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  #156  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2021, 1:03 PM
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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

Yes, indeed.... and the Stage 2 overall was ultimately more expensive than had been budgeted at this point in its timeline .vs. Stage 3 now.
So.... I can only hope and expect that Jimmy has instructed the Rail Office to seriously -overbudget- at this point in the dual expectation of
(1) previous history for Stage 1 and Stage 2 budgeting experience, and
(2) safety in sending the budget up the chain for 50-50-0 funding wherein the Feds and Prov are not hit with those 'unanticipated' budget overages at contracting.

Here's hoping !
That could explain the ridiculously high costs of the Barrhaven estimates, while the Kanata estimates (released before Stage 2 contracts) are closer to reality (still expensive compared to Stages 1 and 2, but more elevated rail, no existing RoW and inflation could explain that).

With that said, couldn't grossly overestimating Barrhaven further inflate the bids?

Estimate: $285/km True cost: $150/km Bids: $200/km (let's make extra cash but make it seem like a deal).

I know it will be a competitive bid and the City always picks the cheapest bid, but this probability seems plausible.
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  #157  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2021, 1:05 PM
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Scenario #2, upper level Govs refuse to fund Barrhaven because the estimates are stupid expensive. Less likely because Govs only care about votes.
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  #158  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2021, 5:51 PM
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Stars align for diverse public transit visions in Ottawa ahead of 2022 municipal vote
There hasn't been much indulgence for competing theories about how to expand transit in Ottawa, but openings have emerged for those discussions to potentially happen.

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Feb 13, 2021 • 6 hours ago • 4 minute read


If public transit is a pillar of every credible mayoral campaign, a gigantic federal funding program, a delay to Ottawa’s transportation master plan and the COVID-19 pandemic are three developments that could help support differing visions for transit expansion ahead of the next municipal election.

Now is generally the time contenders would start seriously thinking about a run for the mayor’s office in the October 2022 vote.

This past December, just after the midway mark of the 2018-2022 council term, Mayor Jim Watson suggested he was on the fence about seeking a fourth consecutive mandate as mayor next year. His decision this year will ultimately keep adversaries away or launch a wide-open contest.

A campaign that ignores public transit planning is generally a losing one, but there hasn’t been much indulgence for competing theories about how to expand transit in Ottawa.

However, openings have emerged for those discussions to potentially happen.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Wednesday announced a major funding program that had municipalities gushing. The federal government will spend $3 billion annually on public transit projects starting in 2026, answering calls for predictable upper-tier support for transit infrastructure.

When someone asks local political hopefuls how they could possibly pay for a transit scheme, they now have an easy answer.

The Watson public transit plank of a hypothetical re-election bid is obvious: extend LRT to the suburbs left out of the first two construction stages.

In fact, in praising Trudeau’s announcement, Watson basically said the new money would be used to bring LRT to Barrhaven, Kanata and Stittsville.

Conversations about other ways to expand high-capacity OC Transpo service have been muted for about seven years. This is partially because the city plans projects according to the transportation master plan and the current plan hasn’t been updated since 2013, when the big splash was the Stage 2 O-Train project.

The city told council last August that an updated transportation master plan won’t be done until fall 2023, a significant change from the original April 2022 timeline. The delay makes sense since the master plan depends heavily on an “origin-destination” study of how people move around the region and the results, which will now be based on work scheduled to begin in fall 2021, would be skewed during the COVID-19 pandemic.

It means the current council won’t have an opportunity to lock in a transit vision for the city and there will be time for the next city council, under a mayor’s leadership, to massage the blueprint after the term of office begins in November 2022.

It seems to be a given that a Stage 3 LRT expansion will figure prominently in the 2023 transportation master plan. The Stage 3 projects, which have been roughed out through council-approved environmental assessments, have estimated costs of $3 billion for Barrhaven and $1.85 billion for Kanata/Stittsville.

Both lines could be built in phases.

Then again, pouring money into expanding the Transitway network, especially with the addition of more electric buses in what could be a greening of the entire Transpo fleet, is also an option.

After all, the city is approving remote rural areas for development, like the Algonquins of Ontario “Tewin” project, that will require bus service. It’s also designing new subdivisions, like one in south Orléans with about 5,000 homes, next to future bus rapid transit corridors. A Transitway on March Road through Kanata North has been on the books for years, and Baseline Road is eyed for a Transitway linking up with O-Train stations.

Then there are the rail schemes lingering on the city’s backburner.

In the 2014 mayoral race, Mike Maguire pitched using existing CN and Via Rail lines to run commuter rail service, an idea that was virtually laughed away by LRT diehards.

Five years later, city staff told council they were interested in negotiating the acquisition of two CN rail corridors that together run between the Kanata North area and around Highway 417 at Walkley Road because they “could be very beneficial for longer-term transportation infrastructure needs.” The city, in fact, already owns similar railway corridors cutting through Kanata North and Stittsville.

There has been virtually no discussion about other potential LRT projects. The prospect of a Carling Avenue rail line faded after the city pursued the Stage 2 western LRT extension, but high-density residential proposals for the Carling area have been coming into city hall. There has been little consideration of ways to run LRT across other inner-urban communities.

The current LRT blueprint is the main focus of council and the pandemic hasn’t knocked anyone off track when it comes to running and building the O-Train system.

There will be a time, however, when the impact of COVID-19 on the travelling habits of Ottawa’s workforce will crystallize. It will likely happen after the origin-destination study is complete.

With that data, the mayor and councillors of the 2022-2026 term could decide if a multibillion-dollar suburban LRT expansion is still worth it in the short-to-medium term, or if there are others ways to spend billions of upper-government dollars to help transit customers more easily get around the city.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...municipal-vote
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  #159  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2021, 10:48 PM
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Nice, a few new observations on the transit side of things:

1. The Cumberland Transitway is still in play, but if you look closely it's now been changed to an at-grade transitway, with a new multi-traffic boulevard being built in the preserved corridor

2. I don't know why Marketplace LRT station keeps showing up on their plans, but it's still there...

3. The Gatineau-Bayview connection for Line 2 has finally been removed

4. Transitway extended to "Kanata North" station, very cool

5. 3 infill stations next to Limebank, seems excessive but I'm guessing it's just many options

6. Renaming of some Phase 3 stations: Meadowlands, Medhurst, Arcadia, Centrum (Orleans)

7. There's still this cluster of 3 stations around Mooney's Bay, wondering why it's not combined into one big blob but whatever...
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  #160  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2021, 5:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Sauvanto View Post
1. The Cumberland Transitway is still in play, but if you look closely it's now been changed to an at-grade transitway, with a new multi-traffic boulevard being built in the preserved corridor
The new "A series" plan shows a fully segregated transitway west of Tenth Line and an at-grade transitway east of Tenth Line, which is exactly the same as the 2013 transportation master plan.

I don't know what's the point of the 2 stations along the Blackburn Hamlet Bypass. There is exactly 0 people living in the area.
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