DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

I think I observe far more littering coming from wealthy people, than poor people. They think there are poor people being paid to clean up after them. And how about giving poor people an opportunity to become middle class. If we concentrate them all into ghettos, do you think that would be an environment indicative of creating opperunities? You can always sell your house and move out into a far going suburb with nothing but $500k+ homes. And seriously, where in Denver are home values decreasing, because affordable housing is being built nearby? Why do you want to socially segregate yourself from people of different economic classes?

this is dead wrong. this is about socially integrating our neighborhoods. ultimately you're going to get your rezoning and then we'll have even more rich people moving in everywhere, displacing any history, culture, and long timers.
the new neighborhoods to be filled with rich people everywhere with a pocket or two or poor people towers like they're gonna put in sloan's lake is gross.

i advocate affordable housing being mixed in with regular housing and such, but that's not going to happen without that government control that was just mocked in this thread. you want to see developer give away after give away. they'll take our block for a few million and get to rent that out 20 fold. or even better, sell 20 times the condos, all because you said they should get rezoned. great for them. great for the new folks coming in i guess, but that is horrible for the people living there. nobody will say that, but it's true.

there should be scale limits in our neighborhoods. there should not be mass destruction just to build up. ultimately you are destroying what you claim to be trying to save when you do this. i urge anybody to walk through some of these old Mexican neighborhoods and tell me that displacing them for the sake of building bigger shit is good for everybody. not to mention the cruel irony of moving out the cultural fabric of our city with the idea of bringing in more space for different poor people. the idea is great, but so much of the bigger picture is missed.

as for the people telling the local residents just to sell and move. ok, but where? how? leave their friends and family. so on and so on. look i do get it. this is how it happens. this is why seattle is so loved by the new folks and hated by the longtime residents. that's how it goes, growth can't be stopped. i'm just saying that somebody should give a shit about the people getting displaced. this is exactly why a candi cdebaca got elected. you should pay attention and understand it's not just about trying to stop your supposed latest and greatest master design ideas. (let's not forget that all of your previous great ideas turned out to be disasters -surely this one is spot on)

when people say neighborhood character is bullshit and some kind of racial coding, they aren't talking about the same thing I'm talking about.

[bulldurhamer]

and on the other hand, yes poor people litter like crazy. if you're a rich person in a rich neighborhood with all fancy houses and such, obviously it will suck to have a massive influx of lower class folks.

i live all around low level affordable housing and it's great aside from the litter and the gangs and shit. when you get closer to the towers and giant complexes, the worse it always gets. how much nice is curtis park to visit right now that housing project is being renovated? the scale of that thing made it the dominating force in the area.

consideration, compromise, and compassion should help guide these discussions but there's no place for that these days. it's density or the highway with the insincere argument about fixing past wrongs thrown in to win some votes.

[twister244]

So what's your solution?......

You keep whining over and over and over about how horrible it is these neighborhoods are gentrifying, on and on, and it gets old.....

What you fail to understand is urban neighborhoods have been changing and flipping since they were first built over a 100 years ago. Before white flight, urban neighborhoods had a completely different class of people living in them. Now that folks are wanting to move back in, oh the horror!

Give me a break..... We live in a country that allows free market forces to work. Denver is already doing quite a bit to facilitate the inclusion of affordable housing into new developments. Yet, it's never enough for people like you. Just be honest, you hate the new people moving into Denver. If you had your way, you would put a gate around these neighborhoods you discuss with signs that say "keep out, go away". You want the government to step in and mandate no new development of any kind so the current neighborhoods can stay as they are as though it's some kind of goddamn museum exhibit. Please keep in mind, communities like Boulder have already done that.... and look how affordable those places are. You are completely inept when it comes to basic economic theory, and you come on here throwing shade at fellow posters as though your opinion is going to convince anyone on here otherwise. If you don't like the growth in Denver, go move to the suburbs where your little cul-de-sac won't change. Or better yet, go find a small town east of Denver. I promise you those won't change anytime soon...... You can't stop people from wanting to move to Denver. Nor can you mandate legislation to stop people from moving here. Let's call this insane NIMBYism for what it is, a convoluted form of urban conservatism that wants the government to step in. It's disgusting......

[jbssfelix]

WHY. IS. BUILDURHAMMER. STILL. ALLOWED. ON. THIS. FORUM?

He's obviously just a troll.

[Denvergotback]

I just don't get it when people can't handle when big cities do big city things... Cities change, learn to adapt and stop whining. I hate it when people move to a large city and then just expect it to stagnate now that they are suddenly there. They expect all growth must happen on the outskirts... what a horrible solution.

I get that gentrification is a real issue, but we can't just contradict ourselves on every rant. And its not like Denver isn't trying to accommodate lower class people, I think the city is pretty aware of displacement and is trying to keep up demand and growth all while trying to help the people who could be displaced. But at the end of the day, its just like what twister said above, it's a free market, so what's going to happen is going to happen. No Matter What. Just be thankful that the city is at least trying to help those being displaced.



Also on a somewhat relatable side note.... going off of people complaining about big cities, has anyone else met anyone (or has family) that live hours away from a large city and complain about the large cities building new stuff or growing? Because I have family in northern Arizona (3.5 hours away from Phoenix) complaining that Phoenix has been building a light rail... And then when I lived in Dallas, I spent a few months in a tiny town 2 hours outside of the city and EVERYONE constantly complained about Dallas growing and thought that whenever a new shiny tower went up downtown was a slap in the face to everyone? Anyone else notice any of this nonsense coming from people who live nowhere near a city? I find it odd, and makes me wonder why most of the small towns I've been to just complain about nothing....

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Denvergotback

Also on a somewhat relatable side note.... going off of people complaining about big cities, has anyone else met anyone (or has family) that live hours away from a large city and complain about the large cities building new stuff or growing? Because I have family in northern Arizona (3.5 hours away from Phoenix) complaining that Phoenix has been building a light rail... And then when I lived in Dallas, I spent a few months in a tiny town 2 hours outside of the city and EVERYONE constantly complained about Dallas growing and thought that whenever a new shiny tower went up downtown was a slap in the face to everyone? Anyone else notice any of this nonsense coming from people who live nowhere near a city? I find it odd, and makes me wonder why most of the small towns I've been to just complain about nothing....

Because they live in a small town, and there isn't much else to talk about?....

I get it..... and trust me, I would love nothing more than to have folks be able to stay in their neighborhoods. They contribute to the urban fabric and culture of a city. No dig on anyone who was on a city block before me, as long as they are respectful neighbors. I think Five Points is an example of a neighborhood where I would love to see the African American community stay there. There's so much rich history on Welton, etc. It gives the area a very distinct cultural feel.

But.... at the end of the day, folks in these areas fall into one of two categories, and I have brought this up before.
1.) They rent.
2.) They own.

If they own a place, well..... you can't blame them for selling to a developer, cashing out, and moving elsewhere. I find it hard to believe these folks are being priced out by higher property taxes as our property taxes are already pretty damn low.

If they rent, well.... this is where you can help out to an extent with affordable housing. But.... you can't stop the market forces.

[Agent Orange]

Not sure why any of us are still wasting our time responding to this guy. Let him migrate to City Discussions with the rest of the circle jerkers who have no other outlet for their toxic masculinity than picking fights over Census data with internet strangers.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Denvergotback

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I’m sure they got the same app for Android but I’m not completely sure!

That's what I wondered... I use a desktop w/ Chrome, Ublock basic and Trend Micro (anti-virus, anti-spam etc) and never have a problem.

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[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by twister244

Because they live in a small town, and there isn't much else to talk about?....

I get it..... and trust me, I would love nothing more than to have folks be able to stay in their neighborhoods. They contribute to the urban fabric and culture of a city. No dig on anyone who was on a city block before me, as long as they are respectful neighbors. I think Five Points is an example of a neighborhood where I would love to see the African American community stay there. There's so much rich history on Welton, etc. It gives the area a very distinct cultural feel.

But.... at the end of the day, folks in these areas fall into one of two categories, and I have brought this up before.
1.) They rent.
2.) They own.

If they own a place, well..... you can't blame them for selling to a developer, cashing out, and moving elsewhere. I find it hard to believe these folks are being priced out by higher property taxes as our property taxes are already pretty damn low.

If they rent, well.... this is where you can help out to an extent with affordable housing. But.... you can't stop the market forces.

Exactly. Or you own and rent it out; likely renting it for $500 month several ago but getting over $2000 per month now. I guess they could go against their own financial interest and continue to rent it for $500 per month, but would you?

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

older folks should be rising up and doing what they can to protect themselves because it's certainly clear that millennials are willing to sweep them out forever if they can.

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

this is about socially integrating our neighborhoods.

. . .


i advocate affordable housing being mixed in with regular housing and such, but that's not going to happen without that government control that was just mocked in this thread.

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

if you're a rich person in a rich neighborhood with all fancy houses and such, obviously it will suck to have a massive influx of lower class folks.

looooool These contradictions about wanting mixed-income housing and then instantly shitting on the same idea are classic.

[bob rulz]

Also apparently compassion is key...in the same paragraph where he talks about poor people being dirty and throwing trash everywhere.

[SnyderBock]

Does Denver want families, or try to attract a continuous influx of young professionals?

My concern is that both are being priced out of Denver.

If you have a young professional earning $4,000/month, $52,000/year, (which is a lot of money for someone with little or no experience), then the maximum they should pay for rent is 35% of that. That caps their rent at $1400/month. But it is highly suggested that you try not to spend more than 20% of your income on housing, and then saving more income for retirement. At the suggested 20% of your income for housing, that person should only be spending $800/month on rent.

So tell me do young professionals have thousands of units to choose from in Denver, in that $800-$1400 a month price range?

[The Dirt]

Also, I would argue that it makes sense to use net income instead gross in that calculation. 4k a month gross, it's closer to 2500 a month net. If you're spending 1400 of that on rent you're probably one medical bill, car repair, or vacation away from being in the red, and you're definitely not saving for retirement. In any case, the richest country in the world is setting itself up for poverty unless we have serious land use, higher education, and medical reform. To bad we're too busy blaming enduring on immigrants and patting ourselves on our backs for having the largest military.

[iNfill]

Anyone know if they are planning to place bike lanes on the remodel of the 16th street mall? I think it’s crazy they don’t already have them, but would be nice for the future even if it just gets the scooters out of everyone’s way. Would also make the 16th st mall more easily accessible and would probably make it look even livelier than it already is.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Does Denver want families, or try to attract a continuous influx of young professionals?

My concern is that both are being priced out of Denver.

If you have a young professional earning $4,000/month, $52,000/year, (which is a lot of money for someone with little or no experience), then the maximum they should pay for rent is 35% of that. That caps their rent at $1400/month. But it is highly suggested that you try not to spend more than 20% of your income on housing, and then saving more income for retirement. At the suggested 20% of your income for housing, that person should only be spending $800/month on rent.

So tell me do young professionals have thousands of units to choose from in Denver, in that $800-$1400 a month price range?

One metric if 50% housing + transportation. If they don't own a car, they can spend way more on housing.

The 30% (or 35%) metric is an average scenario, realizing that many people have kids, debt, cars, cats, and so on. Someone with none of those things will often spend way more on housing instead.

I'm not saying that's always a good idea -- saving is smart -- but it's common. And sometimes it's a fine idea. For example avoiding a commute might make it possible to work more (boost the career) or enjoy life more.

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by mhays

One metric if 50% housing + transportation. If they don't own a car, they can spend way more on housing.

The 30% (or 35%) metric is an average scenario, realizing that many people have kids, debt, cars, cats, and so on. Someone with none of those things will often spend way more on housing instead.

I'm not saying that's always a good idea -- saving is smart -- but it's common. And sometimes it's a fine idea. For example avoiding a commute might make it possible to work more (boost the career) or enjoy life more.

I know when trying to get a loan, they frown on anyone spending more than 35% of their income on housing (they have told me this).

I used to only spend 8% of my income on housing before I moved to Denver. My wife and I earn 20k a year more here in Denver, but now 25% of our income goes to just rent. So every single penny of the extra income we have here, all goes to rent. Then you add in things like car insurance going from $85/month to $150/ month, just for moving here, a basket of groceries costing 18% more here. Oil changes costing $40 instead of $20, gasoline costing $2.69/gal instead of $1.98/gal, pest control costing $120 a visit instead of $40 a visit.... I mean everything is highly inflated. At work, what would have been an $800 job to have a burned out compressor in a cooler unit changed, here they charge $2800. Just had some commercial electrical work done that should have only cost $1500 and they charged $3950. Fishing license is now $44 instead of $15. The list goes on and on!

These are several hundred percent price increases just for being in Denver. It is insane! And these costs are going up by more than 7% per year, but employers are handing out 3% per year raises. Wages are not keeping pace! Unless perhaps you are in tech... But that's about it!

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by iNfill

Anyone know if they are planning to place bike lanes on the remodel of the 16th street mall? I think it’s crazy they don’t already have them, but would be nice for the future even if it just gets the scooters out of everyone’s way. Would also make the 16th st mall more easily accessible and would probably make it look even livelier than it already is.

No. You can check out the new cross-section here:
https://www.downtowndenver.com/initi...h-street-mall/

[rds70]

A new concept plan submittal to Denver:


Planned for 838 Park Avenue West, southwest corner of Park and Champa.

Concept - 22-story, 314 unit residential condominium building. Ground level retail with above grade parking garage on level 2-5 with approximately 278 parking spaces; 18 upper levels with (2) 7,600 sf towers each; total building area approximately 280,000 SF.

Developer is Ubuntu Partners - https://www.ubuntupartnersllc.com/

[Denvergotback]

Originally Posted by rds70

A new concept plan submittal to Denver:


Planned for 838 Park Avenue West, southwest corner of Park and Champa.



Developer is Ubuntu Partners - https://www.ubuntupartnersllc.com/

Wow, awesome! They look fairly credible looking at their past developments, doesn't seem they have done much outside of Colorado or quite this size of a project though.... Does anyone know how deep their pockets are?

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Thanks, bulldurhamer! Now tell us how you feel about "the illegals" and "the blacks". You're a class act all the way.

Perhaps a more appropriate response to this nonsense would be that nobody does care about the NIMBYs because they aren't getting wrecked and their lives aren't being ruined. The traffic they speak of is from existing neighbors speeding by little kids, not new neighbors who don't exist yet for a to be constructed apartment building. The parking problems they speak to are their problems, because THEIR houses don't have self contained parking. The trash on their streets is from their existing neighbors!

NIMBYs are hitting a retirement jackpot with property values that are surging, not declining as is suggested with the poor folk apartment speak. Those apartment dwellers pay twice as much or more in rent than any of the long term residents - poor people? Give me a break, they are paying $2k/month just to squat in a tiny apartment.

Do long term residents have to move out of their long occupied neighborhoods? Yes, but don't pretend for one second that wasn't THEIR CHOICE and that they're not leaving with multiple six figure sums in the bank - it's hard to feel bad for that. Single family homes were, are, and always will be the downfall of America's cities. They perpetuated segregation, they have economically discriminated against all non-white folks for 100 years, they continue contributing to substantial environmental impacts, and they are literally the only property class that doesn't cover their cost of service and community impact.

I own a single family home and love it, but I whole heartedly support fundamentally changing our cities for the longer term by densifying as I, too, one day hope to live in a City again as I once did when Denver was affordable. In a way, I have been gentrified because I couldn't afford to stay as new folks moved in. Do I resent the people who moved in? No, I resent planning policies for not accommodating sufficient growth in all areas so folks of all types can stay where they are in a vast variety of different housing options.