Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[officedweller]

Coquitlam densified in anticipation of the Evergreen Extension, but at one point put the brakes after numerous delays.

There are a number of Municipal Town Centres in the SoF that could be target destinations for rapid transit lines.
The question is what mode and how to get it there.


http://www.metrovancouver.org/servic...yGVRDBoard.pdf

[Migrant_Coconut]

I'll agree that Newton and Guildford most definitely warrant SkyTrain at some point... though as a separate line with a possible Coquitlam extension, not a branch off a current line.

A reminder that the Expo already has a branch to Production Way that takes 1/3rd of all trains, so another branch to Newton reduces everything south of King George Station to 1/3rd frequency as well.

[officedweller]

Yeah, depends on long term demand and patterns.
Ideally, a lot of SoF trips would end at Surrey City Centre in the future, and
a 3rd platform would be built a Columbia so the Sapperton & Braid stations could be easily served from the M-Line.

An LRT might work for the L-Line, just not one that wriggles around crossing a lot of streets.

[rpvan]

Wasn't the port Mann bridge built to accomodate a potential train line? If so you could potentially run a separate line from coquitlam city centre to surrey through Guildford and Newton, even all the way down to white rock .

[officedweller]

That would be interesting.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'll agree that Newton and Guildford most definitely warrant SkyTrain at some point... though as a separate line with a possible Coquitlam extension, not a branch off a current line.

A reminder that the Expo already has a branch to Production Way that takes 1/3rd of all trains, so another branch to Newton reduces everything south of King George Station to 1/3rd frequency as well.

I agree with that set up. It would be nice to have SOF kind of have their own Skytrain line from Guildford to Newton and beyond (dare I say Semiahmoo or White Rock)

Although I have to question if there is enough data to support the statement that commuters from SOF are going to Coquitlam?

Originally Posted by officedweller

An LRT might work for the L-Line, just not one that wriggles around crossing a lot of streets.

Off the bat, I'm immediately against an LRT because of the former Surrey L-line dog's breakfast... Do you have a completely different alignment in mind? I'm just trying to keep an open mind.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by scryer

Off the bat, I'm immediately against an LRT because of the former Surrey L-line dog's breakfast... Do you have a completely different alignment in mind? I'm just trying to keep an open mind.

Even just having it keep to the middle of the road and only have the one turn from King George to 104th (vs moving over one block to have a stop right next to Surrey Central Station) would be an improvement. Also a barricaded set of tracks and none of this nonsense of having it running in traffic.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by rpvan

Wasn't the port Mann bridge built to accomodate a potential train line?

This seems to keep popping up, but there isn't any way to add a rail line without running it on the bridge deck and removing traffic lanes. And the costs of building the approaches to make that work would probably be prohibitive.

There's no provision for a rail line underneath the bridge deck as there was, for example, on the Prince Edward Viaduct linking Bloor and Danforth streets in Toronto. The bus-only on and off ramps to Lougheed Mall were as far as the PMH1 project went in terms of facilitating transit.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'll agree that Newton and Guildford most definitely warrant SkyTrain at some point... though as a separate line with a possible Coquitlam extension, not a branch off a current line.

A reminder that the Expo already has a branch to Production Way that takes 1/3rd of all trains, so another branch to Newton reduces everything south of King George Station to 1/3rd frequency as well.

I would disagree on Guildford.

In my opinion, Guildford is done. It's as big as it's getting. The only dethatched houses left are a handful between 148 and 150 Streets south of 104. There aren't any Empty lots.

The only opportunity for growth is to replace current apartment/condo stock with higher density condos. And I'm not a fan of that. It would just displace lower income families in favor of people who live off shore and are looking to park their wealth. Just look at what's happening around Metrotown. They are taking homes out of the lower income bracket and creating investment properties for the wealthy. It's getting disgusting.

If there isn't going to be a massive increase in population in the Guildford area, then there probably isn't a need for a higher capacity rail line as the R1 bus isn't overcrowding.

The only areas for growth are further south, and then you are starting to get closer to Fraser anyway. If densification spreads south of 100 Ave, then you are only going to be a 5 minute bus ride from the 152 St Fraser Skytrain station. They would be out of the catchment of the Guildford line and in the catchment of the Fraser Skytrain.

It's especially not worth it if it also doesn't offer any significant time savings. City Center to Guildford is only 10 minutes on the R1. And 104 doesn't cross any significant arterial streets except King George. So how much could you possibly shave off? Is a billion dollars worth spending if you don't get that many new riders and you only save a couple minutes a day?

The ride to Newton is longer, much more congested, and crosses several arterials which are only getting worse. Thus it offers better time savings. There are also more opportunities for growth in the immediate area, and it also serves as a catchment hub and transfer location for a much larger geographic region.

But even then, for the foreseeable future the current rapid bus, with transit lanes the entire length of King George would be sufficient.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by officedweller

An LRT might work for the L-Line, just not one that wriggles around crossing a lot of streets.

So long as it's separated at 72nd-76th, 88th and Whalley, then runs on 105th, I say go for it.

Of course, the same question comes up: are the savings worth the incompatibility and higher ops costs?

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I would disagree on Guildford.

In my opinion, Guildford is done. It's as big as it's getting. The only dethatched houses left are a handful between 148 and 150 Streets south of 104. There aren't any Empty lots.

The only opportunity for growth is to replace current apartment/condo stock with higher density condos. And I'm not a fan of that. It would just displace lower income families in favor of people who live off shore and are looking to park their wealth. Just look at what's happening around Metrotown. They are taking homes out of the lower income bracket and creating investment properties for the wealthy. It's getting disgusting.

If there isn't going to be a massive increase in population in the Guildford area, then there probably isn't a need for a higher capacity rail line as the R1 bus isn't overcrowding.

The only areas for growth are further south, and then you are starting to get closer to Fraser anyway. If densification spreads south of 100 Ave, then you are only going to be a 5 minute bus ride from the 152 St Fraser Skytrain station. They would be out of the catchment of the Guildford line and in the catchment of the Fraser Skytrain.

It depends. Granted, this one was pitched back when Surrey First wanted a streetcar-induced condo rush, but there is room to grow west of the mall, and on the mall itself. Definitely on all the strip malls and drive-thrus around it.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I would disagree on Guildford.

In my opinion, Guildford is done. It's as big as it's getting. The only dethatched houses left are a handful between 148 and 150 Streets south of 104. There aren't any Empty lots.

I disagree because every parking lot is an opportunity to build denser. Surrey Central Mall is currently building parkade so that they can start developing their parking lots surrounding the immediate mall so I think that it is entirely possible for Guildford mall to do the exact same thing. Specifically the northern parking lots hold a lot of opportunity... Heck you could even build a parkade into the podium of a tower if you really wanted.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

So long as it's separated at 72nd-76th, 88th and Whalley, then runs on 105th, I say go for it.

Of course, the same question comes up: are the savings worth the incompatibility and higher ops costs?

Exactly. And at that point, with that much desired grade separation...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by scryer

Exactly. And at that point, with that much desired grade separation...

Well, with just those separations (plus 105th instead of 104th), you're getting about 3-4 klicks of track and four stations at-grade - as much as $800 million less. And Surrey being Surrey, you're not losing much walkability in-between town centres.

Of course, whether or not all of that's enough to offset the long term drawbacks is debatable, but it's at least worth consideration now instead of a flat-out "NOPE NOPE NOPE." Eglinton in Toronto is marked for ~8,000 pphpd with the same setup.

[officedweller]

I was thinking what Sheba said with an underpass for the 104 to KGB turn.
Other underpasses for intersections with high turn volume makes sense, but then, like the original M-Line LRT plan, you approach Skytrain cost.

WRT Coquitlam - Surrey commutes, the original T-line in the 1996 LRSP was meant to encourage /shape growth with suburb to suburb commuting patterns (ie Coquitlam to Surrey), but the change in the station orientation at Lougheed created a 2 transfer ride for Coquitlam to Surrey trips. I could see a direct line providing more growth shaping effect.

[xd_1771]

Hmmmmm.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the discussion around rapid transit/rail transit on the KGB corridor (specifically city centre to Newton) needs to be redone completely.

It's easy to say that the next rapid transit extension of any sort has to be to Newton as it's the "largest" and/or "most populous" area of Surrey. The thing is, whenever I take a good look at Newton and its geographically large size on a map, the shortcoming(s) of the previous proposals (which were for a single line down KGB, extending about 6km from 102 Ave to 71 St) become blatantly obvious.

Newton geographically extends from Scott Rd/120 St in the west all the way to the farmland at 160 St to the east. While building along KGB to the Newton 'town centre' (at KGB/72nd) works to bring rapid transit to the dead centre of Newton, it doesn't necessarily create the fastest route(s) from large portions of Newton to where people are actually going. A lot of people within Newton will actually be better served by the Surrey-Langley SkyTrain on Fraser Highway (yes, the SLS will serve a portion of Newton!). Specifically I'm referring to those around Panorama around 152/Hwy 10, for whom he fastest route to downtown Surrey would remain the existing route up 152nd St and down Fraser Highway. But, the same would apply to basically anyone east of 144 St and north of 64 Ave.

This I think is a big reason why the LRT proposal wasn't able to break 1:1 benefits-costs in TransLink modelling.

The proverbial "success" of LRT on SNG hinged not on the transportation outcome. but instead on a development outcome on the corridors. I think we're all familiar with the business groups (a certain Surrey group and a Newton group) that were adamantly for the LRT on the basis that it would bring needed 'revitalization'. But, to me the emphasis on 'transit' as that bringer of revitalization is starting to go stale. There was a guy with Tien Sher (by the way did everyone just miss this?) who told BIV that developers weren't that interested in building condos along the SNG LRT corridor due to prices and land speculation (I highlighted this back in the day on SFS). Governments and municipal leaders ought to consider if the best way to bring that 'revitalization' is by making other public investments into the town centre and the community.

All this said, I would not give the Surrey-Newton-Guildford LRT another chance - there would honestly be more value to Newton in creating a new RapidBus line up 128 St than ever building the SNG LRT.

By the way, I want to give some emphasis to what scryer said earlier:

Originally Posted by scryer

In a way I feel like Metro Vancouver is very reluctant to shape its growth UNTIL a rapid transit element is introduced...the Metro municipalities in the last 10 years needlessly halt any consideration to significantly develop their urban areas until the Skytrain shows up in their respective neighbourhood.

I think there's a reason Coquitlam Centre is the poignant exception to this: do any of you remember how one of those documentary videos (it might have been 'On the Track') showed a future spur of SkyTrain heading into Coquitlam? Essentially Coquitlam was working on big hints of SkyTrain heading into the area being brought up regularly through the 1980s and the 1990s. If you were Mayor through these times, and a future rail line to the area was basically long-guaranteed, why wouldn't you want to densify already?

[xd_1771]

OK part two (wow this is a lot) but I want to offer my thoughts on what we ought to build on KGB at some point - might not surprise some of you but please hear me out.

For City Centre to Newton Town Centre (KGB/72) specifically, the only good high-budget option to me is SkyTrain as a branch of the Expo Line. From a transportation perspective, SkyTrain realizes that north-south spine that can have east-west feeders, and its travel time advantage ensures that there will be an impact on those living in the peripheries of Newton such as on Scott Road or Panorama. From an urban role perspective, whereas the SNG LRT proposal very much relegated Newton to a Surrey/SoF context, extending Expo merges Newton Town Centre and KGB into the wider Metro Vancouver context, and personally I believe this is the best (if not the only) way to truly realize 'revitalization' in Newton Town Centre.

I fully realize that the urban development outcomes that would come with SkyTrain on KGB likely do not fit with the aspirations of business and community leaders in Newton today, which is why this might best be a discussion that is had tomorrow. What I mean to say is, if we fast forward 10-20 years (or maybe even just 5 years), there might by then be a change of opinion, or new leaders with different opinions!

Regardless of where the discussion around KGB goes in the next few years, I do think KGB needs to be examined in a larger Surrey-White Rock context instead of a halfway-there Surrey-Newton Town Centre context.

One last thing:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

A reminder that the Expo already has a branch to Production Way that takes 1/3rd of all trains, so another branch to Newton reduces everything south of King George Station to 1/3rd frequency as well.

Isn't downtown Surrey expected to become as significant of a city centre as downtown Vancouver is today? Give it a few decades and Surrey Central and King George could be equivalent to today's Granville and Burrard stations. There will almost certainly be the demand to run another "1/3" trains coming from the east or south that terminate in Surrey City Centre. These can use the turnaround tracks between Surrey Central and Gateway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

OR we could build King George as a separate SkyTrain line, keep 2/3rds service on the Expo, and have 3/3rds service for Newton and Guildford. Can't piggyback off the Expo's facilities, but I think that's a worthy tradeoff.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Newton geographically extends from Scott Rd/120 St in the west all the way to the farmland at 160 St to the east. ....

This I think is a big reason why the LRT proposal wasn't able to break 1:1 benefits-costs in TransLink modelling.

This is the fundamental problem in Surrey - beyond the King George Skytrain terminus it's essentially a huge, sprawling residential suburb with a few pockets of moderately higher density. You can't justify rapid transit to people's houses, you need large centres of employment, education, etc. to drive the ridership levels that justify the investment.

The only reason Skytrain is being considered for Surrey is politics - Surrey has a population that's getting close to that of Vancouver and they're demanding the same kinds of amenities that Vancouver has. But Surrey is over 3 times the area of Vancouver proper and has a correspondingly lower density. Not to mention the fact that the commuter loads that justify Skytrain bring a hugely larger number of people into Vancouver than into Surrey, thus exacerbating the difference.

A line will be built for political reasons. But the realities of Surrey mean there's no way to make it as effective as what we've become used to in Vancouver. The best we can hope for is a line that shapes enough densification to justify its existence down the road. And that means it has to coordinate with Surrey's plans for future growth.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

there is a reason when you look at TransLink's #s that SoF bleeds money where as NoF doesn't. NoF is always subsidizing SoF. yet they complain they don't have enough.

personally, i think TransLink should only be responsible for SkyTrain to Langley and the rest of SoF transit should be a different responsibility of those cities. then maybe they'll learn that they aren't hard done by. maybe that will lower the TransLink tax i pay so that NoF people can subsidize SoF people...

but that is extreme of course. but i get tired of hearing their wah wah wahs all the time.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

This is the fundamental problem in Surrey - beyond the King George Skytrain terminus it's essentially a huge, sprawling residential suburb with a few pockets of moderately higher density. You can't justify rapid transit to people's houses, you need large centres of employment, education, etc. to drive the ridership levels that justify the investment.

The Arbutus Corridor is far more dense than Surrey, but I digress since this is a South of Fraser thread...

If future development is the driving force behind Skytrain expansion, then the best candidate is Langley Centre. The mega developments that are happening around Metro Vancouver revolve around large shopping malls, parking lots, and industrial areas. Langley has all of those elements, so it's easy to envision a Brentwood or Lougheed type redevelopment, centred around Willowbrook. Skytrain to Langley is the best option when taking future ridership into consideration.

[rpvan]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

OR we could build King George as a separate SkyTrain line, keep 2/3rds service on the Expo, and have 3/3rds service for Newton and Guildford. Can't piggyback off the Expo's facilities, but I think that's a worthy tradeoff.

A separate line would be the ideal way to go, IMO. Guildford-Surrey Central-Newton-White Rock.

The Scott road corridor (Scott Road-Scottsdale-Newton) could also be a candidate for another line or at least a rapidbus in the future as well...the 319 has seen massive growth over the past few years and is the busiest bus route outside Vancouver (7th busiest in the region) as of 2019.