[Halifax] 6067 Quinpool | ? m | ? fl | Proposed

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by q12

We already have a tower 33 stories high so +40 stories is likely going to happen sometime soon.

That 33 storey tower was built 45 years ago and nothing has come close to that height ever since. I think your optimism is misplaced judging by the allergic reaction of certain members of the public when even a 15-storey building is proposed in this burg.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by q12

This argument is pointless. Any city can build towers as tall as they want.

I suppose, idealistically, they "can". But they don't.

Show me a city of Halifax's size and isolation, anywhere on earth, that isn't a hotel / casino resort, that's full of 40 and 60 story buildings. You won't find one.

They don't happen. There's no market for them.

[Drybrain]

Of any sub-one-million cities in this country, we're probably the best positioned for 40-storey tower. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see one in ten years or so, somewhere downtown outside of a view corridor.

But I would be very surprised to see more than one. Again, not due to NIMBYism (as I always point out, we're really not that extreme in our NIMBYism--here are my favourite Toronto neighbourhood activists at it again, using affordability as a cover for density phobia and bending the ear of their local councillor with absurd complaints.)

The limitations here will be about what the market can bear.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Of any sub-one-million cities in this country, we're probably the best positioned for 40-storey tower. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see one in ten years or so, somewhere downtown outside of a view corridor.

But I would be very surprised to see more than one. Again, not due to NIMBYism (as I always point out, we're really not that extreme in our NIMBYism--here are my favourite Toronto neighbourhood activists at it again, using affordability as a cover for density phobia and bending the ear of their local councillor with absurd complaints.)

The limitations here will be about what the market can bear.

I agree. I would really like to see something like the signature tower that was proposed for King's Wharf. It would be cool to have one standout skyscraper somewhere on our skyline. But I'm not holding my breath and I certainly don't expect to see any creeping up around Quinpool.

But in terms of density and diversity in our skyline, I'd like to see us break the 20 story barrier a bit more on the peninsula and see a few more 23 to 28 story buildings filling in the holes. Why build one sore-thumb 60, when you can build three 20s, or even two 30s, and make the skyline that much more crowded?

[worldlyhaligonian]

"The plaza" looks the best... anything but stubby buildings please... we have enough of that crap.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by portapetey

I suppose, idealistically, they "can". But they don't.

Show me a city of Halifax's size and isolation, anywhere on earth, that isn't a hotel / casino resort, that's full of 40 and 60 story buildings. You won't find one.

They don't happen. There's no market for them.

No one in this thread, as far as I can see, is advocating that Halifax *ought* to be "full of 40 and 60 story buildings". Did I miss that somewhere? We're talking about a single development, which doesn't even involve a 40 floor proposal.

Also, you keep confusing is / ought in all of your posts. I'm not sure if it's intentional or you're sincerely confused.

We are debating whether or not to build a higher dense tower. That's a question of whether we *ought* to do so.

Simply because it *is* the case that 40 - 60 floor towers are rare in cities of Halifax size, does not mean you *ought* not build one. There are a range of factors that impact development decisions, like land form, existing urban density, other mid-density development, planned and proposed, natural/artificial geography, population demographics, trends, etc.

If your argument is really that we shouldn't build one because you predict there would be no demand-- a pretty prosaic and common plug-in argument from the NIMBY / Anti-Development / Heritage Trust crowd-- isn't that something we ought to let private developers decide what is, or isn't, profitable for them?

The arguments you're using here, are the same that have been trotted out by the Anti-Development crowd at every stage of the King's Wharf development. Don't approve it because there is, or would be, no demand! And yet, Wares keeps building and even more magically is able to sell/rent the units. And, magically, keeps building more. Apparently, he has a better sense of demand than the retired academics spinning their wheels over at the Heritage Trust.

Let the private developers decide how, and whether, they will be profitable. If someone thinks they can build a 40 floor tower at Quinpool, and make money doing it, why should our subjective preferences for a "small town" stop it?

Moreover, unless you have clear empirical data that predicts market demands for 40+ floor towers for the next 10-15 years (you don't because it doesn't exist) the argument from market demand is ultimately an empty one.

It's obvious that you like the idea of Halifax as a small town, with few towers. That's fine, and that's your opinion. Others don't share it. But dressing up that subjective preference in the guise of bad is/ought fallacies and empirical claims about markets is another thing.

[fenwick16]

There are some very slim 40 storey towers.

The Maple that is under construction will have 300 units on 21 floors - http://southwest.ca/maple/building/ . This was built wider than permitted under HRM by Design rules. If the height were permitted, then this could have been a slimmer 38 storey tower with 8 units per floor.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

No one in this thread, as far as I can see, is advocating that Halifax *ought* to be "full of 40 and 60 story buildings". Did I miss that somewhere? We're talking about a single development, which doesn't even involve a 40 floor proposal.

Also, you keep confusing is / ought in all of your posts. I'm not sure if it's intentional or you're sincerely confused.

We are debating whether or not to build a higher dense tower. That's a question of whether we *ought* to do so.

Simply because it *is* the case that 40 - 60 floor towers are rare in cities of Halifax size, does not mean you *ought* not build one. There are a range of factors that impact development decisions, like land form, existing urban density, other mid-density development, planned and proposed, natural/artificial geography, population demographics, trends, etc.

If your argument is really that we shouldn't build one because you predict there would be no demand-- a pretty prosaic and common plug-in argument from the NIMBY / Anti-Development / Heritage Trust crowd-- isn't that something we ought to let private developers decide what is, or isn't, profitable for them?

The arguments you're using here, are the same that have been trotted out by the Anti-Development crowd at every stage of the King's Wharf development. Don't approve it because there is, or would be, no demand! And yet, Wares keeps building and even more magically is able to sell/rent the units. And, magically, keeps building more. Apparently, he has a better sense of demand than the retired academics spinning their wheels over at the Heritage Trust.

Let the private developers decide how, and whether, they will be profitable. If someone thinks they can build a 40 floor tower at Quinpool, and make money doing it, why should our subjective preferences for a "small town" stop it?

Moreover, unless you have clear empirical data that predicts market demands for 40+ floor towers for the next 10-15 years (you don't because it doesn't exist) the argument from market demand is ultimately an empty one.

It's obvious that you like the idea of Halifax as a small town, with few towers. That's fine, and that's your opinion. Others don't share it. But dressing up that subjective preference in the guise of bad is/ought fallacies and empirical claims about markets is another thing.

This has nothing to do with my preferences, or any desire to see Halifax stay a small town. I have never once said I oppose any development. You're making that up as an ad hominem - if you make me out to be a "NIMBY" then my opinion doesn't count, right? It's really no different from calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll. It's bad faith, to be blunt. So please keep the personal attacks out of it.

As drybrain keeps pointing out, being realistic about what is likely here is not the same as being opposed to big ideas and is not the same as being a NIMBY.

It's reality.

40 story towers aren't "rare" in cities of Halifax's size and isolation - they're non-existent. If there was a market, developers would decide and build them - as you just said yourself. The fact that developers are not doing so it speaks for itself. When one does, I'll be the first one cheering the project on.

I would love to see a few tall slim buildings approaching that size in Halifax - but I think it's extremely unrealistic to expect it to happen (especially in the Quinpool area, where this all started) because it hasn't happened anywhere else like Halifax, ever. That's an "is", not an "ought".

I do think it's sad that there is a certain element in Halifax that constantly bemoans the city as "behind the times" and a "backwater" etc. because of these realities, when actually Halifax is doing quite well. That negativity grates on me, and that's what I react to and occasionally pipe up and say, "hey, you know, we're not as big a city as you think, and we're really doing pretty well for our size."

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by portapetey

This has nothing to do with my preferences, or any desire to see Halifax stay a small town. You're making that up as an ad hominem - if you make me out to be a "NIMBY" then my opinion doesn't count, right?

It's reality.

40 story towers aren't "rare" in cities of Halifax's size and isolation - they're non-existent. If there was a market, developers would decide and build them - as you just said yourself. The fact that developers are not doing so it speaks for itself.

I would love to see a few tall slim buildings approaching that size in Halifax - but I think it's extremely unrealistic to expect it to happen, because it hasn't happened anywhere else like Halifax, ever. That's an "is", not an "ought".

Not true. What about the 50 storey ~170 meter Hilton Niagara Falls Tower phase2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilton..._Falls_Tower_2

(source: http://www.emporis.com/images/detail...-murray-street )

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Not true. What about the 50 storey ~170 meter Hilton Niagara Falls Tower phase2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilton..._Falls_Tower_2

(source: http://www.emporis.com/images/detail...-murray-street )

Niagara Falls is a hotel / casino resort town on top of one of the world's biggest tourist attractions, with a Metro area of 1.3 million, right beside Buffalo, which has 1.1 million - and both in the middle of the biggest urban agglomeration on the continent with about 56 million.

You'll find other examples in Atlantic City, another hotel / casino resort in the middle of the second largest urban agglomeration on the continent.

Neither is at all "like Halifax" in terms of metro population, isolation from other large centres, or tourism draw.

[portapetey]

Anywhoodle, I'm sorry for clogging up this thread with conversation that should really be in the population / demographics thread.

If any developers want to put a 40 story tower on the St. Pat's site, I'll be right there cheering them on (and wishing them a lot of luck.)

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by portapetey

Niagara Falls is a hotel / casino resort town on top of one of the world's biggest tourist attractions, with a Metro area of 1.3 million, right beside Buffalo, which has 1.1 million - and both in the middle of the biggest urban agglomeration on the continent with about 56 million.

You'll find other examples in Atlantic City, another hotel / casino resort in the middle of the second largest urban agglomeration on the continent.

Neither is at all "like Halifax" in terms of metro population, isolation from other large centres, or tourism draw.

OK I'll bite; What all are you including in your 56,000,000 agglomeration???

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by portapetey

Anywhoodle, I'm sorry for clogging up this thread with conversation that should really be in the population / demographics thread.

If any developers want to put a 40 story tower on the St. Pat's site, I'll be right there cheering them on (and wishing them a lot of luck.)

I think the Plaza and Square are the best concepts, while the Grid looks terrible.

If someone wanted to build a slim 40 storey tower in the centre of the site then they could have much lower density buildings surrounding it. Something like the Fenwick redevelopment plans.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

OK I'll bite; What all are you including in your 56,000,000 agglomeration???

It's called the Great Lakes Megalopolis.

It's an area a bit bigger than the Maritimes, with 30 times the population.

This is a very instructive graphic. Note the gray (and other colored) circles which vary in size to mark out populations starting at 150,000-1million, and ranging up to 6 million+. And note the Maritimes (well, most of Canada.)

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I think the Plaza and Square are the best concepts, while the Grid looks terrible.

If someone wanted to build a slim 40 storey tower in the centre of the site then they could have much lower density buildings surrounding it. Something like the Fenwick redevelopment plans.

From my point of view, the square is terrible. A flat topped, uninviting walled compound of a concept. Would much rather see something like the grid or plaza (the latter being the preferred 'best of both worlds' option).

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

From my point of view, the square is terrible. A flat topped, uninviting walled compound of a concept. Would much rather see something like the grid or plaza (the latter being the preferred 'best of both worlds' option).

Courtyard style development is fantastic in cities like Barcelona:




But this is certainly not going to achieve that effect!

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by portapetey

It's called the Great Lakes Megalopolis.

It's an area a bit bigger than the Maritimes, with 30 times the population.

This is a very instructive graphic. Note the gray (and other colored) circles which vary in size to mark out populations starting at 150,000-1million, and ranging up to 6 million+. And note the Maritimes (well, most of Canada.)

So you are combining several agglomerations into a region that stretches hundreds of miles.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by portapetey

It's called the Great Lakes Megalopolis.

It's an area a bit bigger than the Maritimes, with 30 times the population.

This is a very instructive graphic. Note the gray (and other colored) circles which vary in size to mark out populations starting at 150,000-1million, and ranging up to 6 million+. And note the Maritimes (well, most of Canada.)

So you are combining several agglomerations into a region that stretches hundreds of miles.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

So you are combining several agglomerations into a region that stretches hundreds of miles.

I thought we were just talking about the idea that people living in the outer parts of HRM don't matter to this discussion and should be discounted. But now people living 5 hours away in a different country do apparently have an impact on other cities. It's funny to point out that most people in the Cascadia megaregion can't even come up here to Vancouver because they don't have passports. Most of our real estate "investors" are Chinese. Maybe Vancouver should be part of the Shanghai megaregion.

It all seems tenuously related to why Halifax can/can't or should/shouldn't have 40 storey buildings or whatever these arbitrary cutoff is supposed to be. All I'll say is that I'm happy there aren't as many of these buildings going up because by having smaller ones the new construction gets spread around more. I think we can all agree that many parts of Halifax need improvement and there isn't enough demand, megaregion-driven or not, to build large buildings everywhere. There are small cities like London ON that tend to get one or two big highrises (with maybe 500 units) every couple of years and I don't think they have the same impact as the finer-grained buildings.

I'm happy Halifax has a mix of bigger and smaller projects, ranging all the way from small renos up to 20-30 storey highrises. A mix of buildings makes a city more interesting too. Most cities that are all one type of construction are monotonous, whether they are 100% highrise or 100% lowrise.

[portapetey]

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