NEW YORK | Port Authority Bus Terminal Replacement

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Why has no one suggested the possibility of enlarging the scope of the Gateway Tunnel project to include a large bore tunnel(s) with a dedicated bus transitway? The Manhattan end could loop then connect with the existing Lincoln approach at 30th/Dyer and funnel into a new PABT in a dedicated bus lane(s). This solution would remove all buses from the Lincoln Tunnel, increasing efficiency, reducing congestion & preventing a huge amount of wear and tear and take full advantage of a new tunnel project we know is happening. Remember the size of the tunnel bore rarely accounts for tunnel construction costs, therefore they really should consider maximizing mode capacity all in one shot.

And before anyone suggests this is nuts, remember they just voted to go forward with a m*********ing 10 Billion dollar west side PABT! If that's going to be a real thing, this idea doesn't seem wildly ambitious by comparison.

I could get on board with that if the tube of the Lincoln Tunnel used for the XBL was turned over to HBLR which would run to a midtown loop station.

But who are we kidding...the PA is going to spend 10-15B to rebuild basically the current situation just a little bit west of where it is now.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The 7 train was just extended, so the "pipe dream" is reality. Now whether it will be extended further, to Chelsea/14th Street/L train, or to NJ, is another question, but we know it can be done. Everyone said the 7 train initial expansion was a "pipe dream".

Adding one more station is totally different from going all the way to Secaucus. That alignment makes absolutely no sense given as it just parallels the NJT alignment into Penn Station.

[Arthururban]

http://www.streetsblog.org/2015/09/2...ning-failures/

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Adding one more station is totally different from going all the way to Secaucus. That alignment makes absolutely no sense given as it just parallels the NJT alignment into Penn Station.

No, it's one station. There is only a proposal for one new station in NJ.

That NJ Transit line is at full capacity, so the line would absolutely make sense. In fact the second NJ Transit line/tunnel into Manhattan is going to be built almost exactly parallel with the first.

And subway ridership doesn't really align with commuter rail ridership anyways. They're different markets. It's the norm in the region to have subway lines and commuter lines along similar rights of way (in fact the newest rail tunnel across the East River is really a dual level subway/commuter rail tunnel with separate tubes for subway and LIRR).

[antinimby]

Just throwing this out there...

...but what about building multiple bus stations both on the west side and in NJ? Instead of building one big one maybe we should think about building several smaller ones in different strategic locations.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by k1052

I could get on board with that if the tube of the Lincoln Tunnel used for the XBL was turned over to HBLR which would run to a midtown loop station.

But who are we kidding...the PA is going to spend 10-15B to rebuild basically the current situation just a little bit west of where it is now.

That will never happen... You need to retrofit the tunnel which might not even be able to support it... If it can it would need to shut down for at least year... and that might cost a billion or so...with the congestion it would generate...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No, it's one station. There is only a proposal for one new station in NJ.

That NJ Transit line is at full capacity, so the line would absolutely make sense. In fact the second NJ Transit line/tunnel into Manhattan is going to be built almost exactly parallel with the first.

And subway ridership doesn't really align with commuter rail ridership anyways. They're different markets. It's the norm in the region to have subway lines and commuter lines along similar rights of way (in fact the newest rail tunnel across the East River is really a dual level subway/commuter rail tunnel with separate tubes for subway and LIRR).

Its not really the norm, most suburban lines run parallel to the subway network but with 5-15 blocks of separation...even the various proposals in the outer boroughs and NJ keep them separate... 2 different markets like you said , the ESA is a rare project where they share ROW...

As talked to death in the various Infrastructure communities in this region...the 7 is unlikely to happen... The MTA & NJT have a backlog of critical transit projects that need to built...aside from the Gateway...most projects are in and around Newark or Central/South Jersey... The only people pushing the 7 are people that have fetishized Urban Redevelopment... Like NYGuy said the city needs to have its own Bus Terminal... Every city should have a few major Rail & Bus Terminals...shifting around location and adding to commutes might cause ridership to decline... People hate standing and transferring in this region... So by forcing a Transfer you'll only anger them more and they'll stop using the service. People tend to move along lines with a one seat ride to their job...or a stress free commute...

Back to the whole redevelopment thing , Secaucus is a swamp & heavily Industrial so there is not much you can do there... If you add a stop in Union city then you'll drive up costs...and Union City has Height limits due to local zoning that people will fight till there blue in the face to preserve.... Weehawken and too a lesser extent Hoboken is the same way... So a Manhattan style high rise boom will not come to the Gold Coast and the Infrastructure is not developed enough to handle it...

It seems like everyone is coming up with wacky ideas for a simple solution or simple set of Solutions... By building the following projects in NJ you can lessen the strain on the Bus system into NYC

• MOM Rail Network - Freehold Branch , Lakewood/Toms River line
• West Shore Line (Hoboken - Newburgh)
• Gateway Rail Project
• Hoboken Terminal overhaul and upgrade
• Northern Branch LRT (North Bergen to Englewood)
• Bergen-Passaic LRT (North Bergen to Paterson)
• Sparta Line (Hoboken to Butler or Sparta)
• More Frequent service on the Rail Network

I rather see the MTA focus on Subway expansions like the SAS or in the outer boroughs...a line into NJ will shift focus and money away from that... Same goes for NJT...with all its backlogged projects... After NY , Newark is the busiest transit hub in the state and one of the busiest in the region...it has been neglected for so long and now with its billions in redevelopment...the time has come to focus on it... I can tell you if the 7 to NJ keeps getting pushed that any funding that is needed for Newark projects will be diverted to it... NJ is not a big state in terms of funding and we don't do multiple large scale projects at the same time.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

... Like NYGuy said the city needs to have its own Bus Terminal... Every city should have a few major Rail & Bus Terminals...shifting around location and adding to commutes might cause ridership to decline... People hate standing and transferring in this region... So by forcing a Transfer you'll only anger them more and they'll stop using the service. People tend to move along lines with a one seat ride to their job...or a stress free commute...

...exactly as I said a few pages back as well!

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

It seems like everyone is coming up with wacky ideas for a simple solution or simple set of Solutions... By building the following projects in NJ you can lessen the strain on the Bus system into NYC

• MOM Rail Network - Freehold Branch , Lakewood/Toms River line
• West Shore Line (Hoboken - Newburgh)
• Gateway Rail Project
• Hoboken Terminal overhaul and upgrade
• Northern Branch LRT (North Bergen to Englewood)
• Bergen-Passaic LRT (North Bergen to Paterson)
• Sparta Line (Hoboken to Butler or Sparta)
• More Frequent service on the Rail Network

I rather see the MTA focus on Subway expansions like the SAS or in the outer boroughs...a line into NJ will shift focus and money away from that... Same goes for NJT...with all its backlogged projects... After NY , Newark is the busiest transit hub in the state and one of the busiest in the region...it has been neglected for so long and now with its billions in redevelopment...the time has come to focus on it... I can tell you if the 7 to NJ keeps getting pushed that any funding that is needed for Newark projects will be diverted to it... NJ is not a big state in terms of funding and we don't do multiple large scale projects at the same time.

None of which will be built for the foreseeable future. NJT simply isn't in a position financially, politically, or culturally to embark on an aggressive expansion of rail service....or really any expansion whatsoever even of existing services.

The MTA would't have been the entity paying for a 7 extension, it would be the PA since it would have been needed to service the new bus terminal. The PA likewise wouldn't be paying for any upgrades to Newark outside of PATH.

NJ doens't do any transportation projects besides roads anymore. Even though I have lots of problems with how the MTA does things at least they have not decided to literally give up on their mission.

As I said previously I eagerly await an explanation from the PA how they intend to finance this 10-15B capital expenditure.

[BBMW]

Separate issues that can be handled separately. As I said before, using buses to plug the tunnel just to keep out cars is moronic.

Keep the buses out by pushing the transfer point in NJ. IF the car traffic becomes a problem, raise the car toll. Very simple.

Originally Posted by Astorian

No, I think you're missing the point. If your concern is pollution and congestion, the answer is banning cars from Manhattab, not busses. If you remove busses from the Lincoln tunnel, you're going to get MORE cars. Studies have shown that EVERY SINGLE time you increase capacity for cars on highways, bridges, and tunnels, you get more traffics because you encourage more people to DRIVE.

.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by k1052

None of which will be built for the foreseeable future. NJT simply isn't in a position financially, politically, or culturally to embark on an aggressive expansion of rail service....or really any expansion whatsoever even of existing services.

The MTA would't have been the entity paying for a 7 extension, it would be the PA since it would have been needed to service the new bus terminal. The PA likewise wouldn't be paying for any upgrades to Newark outside of PATH.

NJ doens't do any transportation projects besides roads anymore. Even though I have lots of problems with how the MTA does things at least they have not decided to literally give up on their mission.

As I said previously I eagerly await an explanation from the PA how they intend to finance this 10-15B capital expenditure.

If NJ can't build those expansions which altogether are cheaper then the 7 / secaucus extension...then how do expect the 7 to be extended?

[k1052]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

If NJ can't build those expansions which altogether are cheaper then the 7 / secaucus extension...then how do expect the 7 to be extended?

Because it would have come out of the PA's pocket at a far lower cost than rebuilding the PABT basically on site would have. The PA cannot however pay to build rail expansions to the NJT network that NJT itself couldn't afford to operate if it was handed anyway. Even if this all came to pass there isn't anywhere to dump those rail riders except Hoboken anyway since the Penn slots are spoken for, Gateway probably on a similar time horizon to a new PABT terminal in midtown assuming funding is actually secured, and NJT would have to pry Penn slots from the MTA's cold dead hands since they have their own plans (MNRR access). Also it's not like PATH has oodles of spare capacity anymore to soak up that kind of traffic form Hoboken into Manhattan and we've just created the much dreaded two (and quite possibly three) seat ride as well.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by k1052

Because it would have come out of the PA's pocket at a far lower cost than rebuilding the PABT basically on site would have. The PA cannot however pay to build rail expansions to the NJT network that NJT itself couldn't afford to operate if it was handed anyway. Even if this all came to pass there isn't anywhere to dump those rail riders except Hoboken anyway since the Penn slots are spoken for, Gateway probably on a similar time horizon to a new PABT terminal in midtown assuming funding is actually secured, and NJT would have to pry Penn slots from the MTA's cold dead hands since they have their own plans (MNRR access). Also it's not like PATH has oodles of spare capacity anymore to soak up that kind of traffic form Hoboken into Manhattan and we've just created the much dreaded two (and quite possibly three) seat ride as well.

The PA is not going to put money towards a competing Rail service other then the Gateway Project... Well Hoboken is underused in terms of capacity on the Suburban Rail , Light Rail & PATH dept so it would be fine with all those new riders...

[C.]

http://therealdeal.com/2016/04/27/th...ly-do-with-it/

The Port Authority is sitting on all this prime real estate — but what can it really do with it?

[BBMW]

It could ground lease a lot of it, and use the lease revenue to float bonds for infrastructure work.

Ground leasing the land where the current PABT, it's approaches, and land on decks over some of the Lincoln Tunnel approaches could fund bonds to extend the 7 to Secaucus, and build a new bus station there.

Originally Posted by CIA

http://therealdeal.com/2016/04/27/th...ly-do-with-it/

The Port Authority is sitting on all this prime real estate — but what can it really do with it?

[jamesinclair]

Originally Posted by NYguy

No, in this case, they don't. Because NY has a bus terminal (not far from here) and is in the process of redesigning a more adequate terminal that will better serve the passengers, meaning you won't see this spillover on the street.

Im very familiar with the development. Youll note that the plan does NOT include space for the budget intercity carriers. Any capacity increase is earmarked for commuters.

So again, these intercity passengers get left high and dry.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by jamesinclair

Im very familiar with the development. Youll note that the plan does NOT include space for the budget intercity carriers. Any capacity increase is earmarked for commuters.

That isn't true. The new PABT will include increased capacity for both intercity and intracity buses.

There aren't going to be any street-side shelters for intercity buses because they're all in temporary locations. And NIMBY neighbors would raise holy hell if permanent infrastructure were built to accommodate a use they view to be illegal.

[C.]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That isn't true. The new PABT will include increased capacity for both intercity and intracity buses.

There aren't going to be any street-side shelters for intercity buses because they're all in temporary locations. And NIMBY neighbors would raise holy hell if permanent infrastructure were built to accommodate a use they view to be illegal.

There's truth to jamesinclair's claim. From the Port Authority's own documents, only Concept 1 has onsite intercity bus capacity with a total of 164 gates. All the rest are commuter. There are discussions of having a remote inner city bus terminal offsite.

https://www.panynj.gov/bus-terminals...pendix%20A.pdf

[jamesinclair]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There aren't going to be any street-side shelters for intercity buses because they're all in temporary locations. .

"Temporary" will be celebrating 10 years soon.

What a way to treat millions of passengers.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by jamesinclair

"Temporary" will be celebrating 10 years soon.

What a way to treat millions of passengers.

What's your solution? The PABT has no room. None.

Where are you going to put the buses?