FirstOntario Centre (aka Copps Coliseum) | ? | 4 fl | Proposed

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Hamilton’s problem is that it’s so close to the Toronto CMA that the commuter sheds blend together a lot.

People living in western Burlington are very much tied to Hamilton but people in eastern Burlington are arguably more tied to the GTA, for example.

Caledonia would be in the CMA if it was an independent municipality. Because Haldimand county is a single tier municipality, it technically doesn’t qualify under the CMA calculation methods. To be in a certain CMA, you need to meet a minimum % of people commuting to a central municipality (Hamilton). Caledonia meets this, but because Haldimand County includes areas like Dunnville, etc, which are much further away, the county as a whole does not.

Brantford I don’t believe meets the commuter shed requirements, even if it wasn’t its own independent CMA. And honestly i think it’s independent enough to qualify as it’s own city. It’s close that people go between the two frequently, but they effectively still act as independent cities.

Honestly I think Hamilton’s CMA number is pretty accurate, maybe short a bit because of Caledonia and/or Beamsville not being in it, but also inflated a bit as it includes western Burlington which is really more tied to Toronto.

If anything Hamilton should just be a part of the GTA metro area though. It’s ultimately still very closely tied to the GTA, much more so than areas like Kitchener / Guelph or Peterborough. It’s not as extreme as Oshawa is which is solidly just a Toronto suburb at this point despite having its own CMA, but it’s close.

In the 2016 census, approximately 4000 people commuted from Brantford to Hamilton, while only just over 8000 did from Burlington to Hamilton. What about Brantford makes it is own city, more so that. Burlington or Grimsby?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

In the 2016 census, approximately 4000 people commuted from Brantford to Hamilton, while only just over 8000 did from Burlington to Hamilton. What about Brantford makes it is own city, more so that. Burlington or Grimsby?

the difference is that 25,000 people who live in Hamilton work in Burlington, compared to just 2,500 who work in Brantford.

So the total commuting mix between Hamilton and Burlington was about 33,000, while it was 6,200 for Brantford. Huge difference.

More people who live in Hamilton work in Toronto than that even - 8,000 people a day get on the GO train or fight their way down the QEW to Toronto. About another 8,000 work in each Mississauga and Oakville.

In fact, almost 14% of commuters who live in Hamilton work in a GTA municipality (A municipality within the Toronto CMA). Thus my point that Hamilton is really quite closely tied to the GTA. It doesn't technically meet the requirements to be in the GTA CMA, but it's still highly integrated.

Brantford stands on its own, the vast majority of people who live there work within Brantford or Brant County.

[ScreamingViking]

This was in the news yesterday. Hopefully it doesn't get the rough ride at committee that certain other proposed projects have been getting today.


$400M rebuild of Hamilton’s downtown entertainment facilities now in front of council
https://www.thespec.com/news/council...rtainment.html

By Scott Radley
The Hamilton Spectator
Tue., June 1, 2021



A massive redevelopment of Hamilton’s downtown entertainment facilities along with the creation of other properties in the core now appears to be just a council vote away.

“A tentative deal is now in place,” Ward 2 councillor Jason Farr says.

“Things have been progressing very well with the city,” says Urban Precinct Entertainment Group (UPEG) president P.J. Mercanti. “We believe we are in a good place.”

On Wednesday at general issues committee, council will discuss what’s being called the Downtown Entertainment Precinct Master Agreement. Which is an arrangement between the city and the consortium of local businesses that makes up UPEG.

Since the issue will be handled in camera, no details of what’s involved are publicly known. However, what was pitched nearly a year ago by UPEG was a $50-million renovation of FirstOntario Centre, as well as multimillion-dollar upgrades to the FirstOntario Concert hall, Hamilton convention centre and Hamilton art gallery. At the time it was announced, the plan included a new exterior for the arena, an expanded concourse, amenities including a microbrewery, a renovated lower bowl and other improvements. The other facilities would be freshened as well.

Also promised was another $340 million in residential units, affordable housing, offices and retail space that will follow in the future. Bringing the whole thing to a cost of more than $400 million.

The apparent deal to kick this into gear comes roughly a year after UPEG — led by Mercanti who is also CEO of Carmen’s Group — was tapped by council to handle the project and more than six months later than had been expected when the arrangement was first announced. Blame a few complications, including COVID, for that Mercanti has said.

Six weeks ago, he said a deal was close. At that point, Farr agreed and said there were just some I’s to dot and T’s still to cross.

“You can safely report that’s all completed now,” the councillor says.

Assuming council signs off on this, the city would save millions in maintenance and upgrades to the facilities that would otherwise be required. The city has budgeted more than $78 million over the next decade to keep the facilities — mainly the arena — going. However, these costs would come off the books and would cease being the responsibility of taxpayers.

full story here

[ScreamingViking]

And council committee gave it their blessing. A unanimous vote... a rare occasion! lol
https://www.thespec.com/news/council...nt-venues.html

Full council vote comes next week but should be a rubber stamp.

[Markus83]

For anyone whom, like I, perhaps wondered why a Toronto sports team is relocating its home base to Hamilton.
The main reasons being, operation costs, a different home location that can attract a better / different fan base, as well as being in an area on a Saturday evening which is a prime time game slot, and be able to make a day of it for fans while immersing in Hamilton's ever changing culture before and after the game. ( which of course is more great news for the City, even more reason for an LRT and so on. ) A news article by the NLL :

https://www.nll.com/news/toronto-roc...ntario-centre/

[Markus83]

Also, does anyone remember, and surely correct me if I am wrong, when the Carmen's Group took over the staffing, and day to day operations from the three downtown entertainment venues years ago? Was it not promised at their end that they would, as they promised at that time to build a new downtown residential building of some sort, mixed with a partial hotel piece to it, I think the renders then showed it between the CIBC building and the Pigott Building? This was perhaps 5-8 years ago I believe, and nothing came to be at all. Well now it seems to me they are promising the exact same thing of building new residential buildings, including affordable housing and commercial to the tune of $340,000,000.00. Is this just another empty promise comparable to politicians promises before they are elected and once elected, the vast majority never come to fruition or are the last on a list of things to do, making them seem insignificant to the public that bought into them?

[LikeHamilton]

Originally Posted by Markus83

Is this just another empty promise comparable to politicians promises before they are elected and once elected, the vast majority never come to fruition or are the last on a list of things to do, making them seem insignificant to the public that bought into them?

At least this time we know where the money is coming from.

From the Spec article:

HUPEG counts the LIUNA Pension Fund, Fengate Capital, Meridian Credit Union, Jetport Inc. and Paletta International as members.

[Berklon]

Do we know exactly what renovations are being done to FOC?

I keep seeing the render shown above, but all that's really showing me is a curtained-off upper level. Are there any other renders out there? I'm assuming/hoping the exterior will get a new look?

[Markus83]

Originally Posted by LikeHamilton

At least this time we know where the money is coming from.

From the Spec article:

Aye! That's a good point.

[JakeLRS]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Do we know exactly what renovations are being done to FOC?

I keep seeing the render shown above, but all that's really showing me is a curtained-off upper level. Are there any other renders out there? I'm assuming/hoping the exterior will get a new look?

Hop to page 21 and there is a potential render of the exterior (its curvy).

I think all that is promised is a revamped lower bowl, updated exterior, new scoreboard, expanded concourse and it looks like revamped suites. I don't know how they're gonna get all of that with only $50 million.

What I'm really interested in is what "expanded concourse" means. Based on the interior renderings, it looks like it might be a completely new lower bowl concourse. Unfortunately, I can't see FOC housing two concourses with the current tenants (maybe the Rock will prove me wrong).

Also, does anyone know the potential timeline of renovations? Would it be similar to MSG where they closed the arena for a few summers or would they simply just shut it down for a year?

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

Hop to page 21 and there is a potential render of the exterior (its curvy).

Ah, geez... I forgot all about that render.... to which I responded to at the time of the posting. Based on the render, it could look ok or horrible - depending how it's done. I don't think it looking great will be on the table unfortunately. But I'll settle for "ok" as it'll be a huge improvement over ugly.

I'm actually more concerned about the exterior than the interior. The interior can be improved upon aesthetically and functionally, but the most noticeable difference will be the exterior as it would improve the look of the downtown core.

[LikeHamilton]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Ah, geez... I forgot all about that render.... to which I responded to at the time of the posting. Based on the render, it could look ok or horrible - depending how it's done. I don't think it looking great will be on the table unfortunately. But I'll settle for "ok" as it'll be a huge improvement over ugly.

I'm actually more concerned about the exterior than the interior. The interior can be improved upon aesthetically and functionally, but the most noticeable difference will be the exterior as it would improve the look of the downtown core.

I would not be too concerned with the renderings. They are just conceptual drawings for presentation purposes and they are not gospel. When they get the keys to the place, then the fun in designing comes into play and we may see something totally different. Tastes change. Ideas change. Trends change. Cost change. Do they build to a budget or do the budget to the build? Only time will tell. We still have not seen the agreement!

As to making it work, there is a lot wasted space inside and out at Copp's. They could add a third and fourth floor around the outside. They can bring square off the 3 corners. Get the offices out of the front and make that area a food and beverage areas. When I was with the Bulldogs a number of years ago, I got to go to Winnipeg's new arena. They had restaurants and take-out food places around the outside of the ground level. They were open to the public during non-event times and closed to the outside a few hours before an event and then they were open to the arena side for the event.

Also there is a whole level in the building that is closed to the public that is not being used. It was reserved for offices for a NHL team.

When Carmen's took over almost everything there, people suggested they would not make it work or make money. After a number of years of not losing money, they are so pleased with the place, they are taking everything over.

[craftbeerdad]

I'm sure lots of people might know this, but for some who do not, Copps was designed for future renovations, so there might be some cost synergies versus major re-design. Either way, $50M seems a bit low for all those renovations unless they're dollarama style.

[Markus83]

This CBC article from yesterday has some details about the renovations and additions.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ium%3Dsharebar

[Markus83]

Originally Posted by craftbeerdad

I'm sure lots of people might know this, but for some who do not, Copps was designed for future renovations, so there might be some cost synergies versus major re-design. Either way, $50M seems a bit low for all those renovations unless they're dollarama style.

I definitely thought that also right away.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by LikeHamilton

When Carmen's took over almost everything there, people suggested they would not make it work or make money. After a number of years of not losing money, they are so pleased with the place, they are taking everything over.

Carmen's has only managed the Convention Centre, hence Hamilton Convention Centre by Carmen's.

The bulk of the former HECFI facilities (i.e. The Studio, First Ontario Concert Hall, First Ontario Centre) have been managed and operated by Spectra/Core Entertainment/Live Nation. Those operations have still received operational and capital subsidies from the City.

It will be interesting to see what things look like when details around what was previously described as a 99-year lease emerge. The City, which is historically prone to own-goals, may write a can't fail contract full of loopholes, subsidies, and the like (see the stadium deal, which ceded virtually everything to the seasonal tenant), and HUPEG will have to sweeten the pot for Live Nation, or they'll get frozen out of the events market and the cornerstone facility of this venture will get $50m in capital improvements to serve as little more than a home venue for amateur sports clubs.

[Markus83]

Perhaps just some history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstOntario_Centre

Sidenote :
I like the fact that this project and the LRT have been hot topics for the past few years, and now at about the same time, they both seem to be on their way in a positive and welcomed fashion.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by Markus83

Perhaps just some history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstOntario_Centre

Sidenote :
I like the fact that this project and the LRT have been hot topics for the past few years, and now at about the same time, they both seem to be on their way in a positive and welcomed fashion.

When it comes to LRT it depends on who at council you're taking to I guess lol.

The longer I live in Hamilton, the more I think there really should have been a stop at Bay St though. James and Queen make sense, James especially, and Queen simply as a middle stop, despite nothing of note being nearby, maybe Hess and George St, but Bay really makes sense considering the new density, and First Ontario Centre. I mean the LRT literally won't stop in the middle of the entertainment district. The closest stop would be James, and you'll have to walk 5 - 10 minutes to the stadium or convention centre.

[mishap]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

The longer I live in Hamilton, the more I think there really should have been a stop at Bay St though..

I can't believe that the city passed on a station at Bay St, given the potential FOC crowds, plus nearby city and federal government offices, plus one end of Jackson Square, yet they decided that they need a stop in the International Village.

I still contend that the politicians don't want a station that close to City Hall because they would be expected to use transit themselves.

[Innsertnamehere]

I do kind of get skipping it as it is only 400 metres from James, which is a very tight stop spacing, but I think the densities are high enough to support it. Especially since there is a stop at Mary - a Bay St stop would be more useful than the Mary stop IMO.