Differences between SW Ontario vs Eastern Ontario

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by megadude

Of course, much of this has to do with the melting pot nature of immigrant assimilation in the US, particularly in rural areas where you don't want to raise the eyebrows of some "good ol' boys". We are a cultural mosaic.

The melting pot vs. the cultural mosaic is always a talking point between the two nations, but how far back the difference goes -- was the US always more "assimilationist" versus Canada generations back -- seems debated.

Multiculturalism is thought to be only a post 1970s thing "officially", but there are some who say that bloc settlements in the Canadian west kind of already displayed this "cultural mosaic, as opposed to melting pot" different going back more than a century.

I'd imagine the folks displaying the flags in SW Ontario were likely those who immigrated long before the 1970s or "official" multiculturalism, and these earlier generations did feel more assimilation pressures (otherwise Berlin, Ontario wouldn't have had the pressure to change its name).

But perhaps multiculturalism attitudes in the past generation led to a resurgence of ethnic identity pride (including among continental Europeans like the Belgians etc.) that involved displaying the flag of one's ancestral country being more socially accepted.

[Capsicum]

Thinking about if the desire to fly a flag weakens with generations removed from the homeland, I wonder if even more recent immigrants, in cities, might actually be hesitant to fly the flag of their birth country, but later immigrants, descendants are more likely for "symbolic" reasons as the old country becomes more and more distant and seen through rose-coloured glasses (for example there's lots of Italian flags, Portuguese flags, but very recent immigrants like Indians, Chinese don't really fly their old country flag much). European countries are much more likely to be flown than non-European nations to represent ancestry alone (not by recent immigrants). For example, an Italian flag or Belgian flag represents Italian roots or Belgian roots, not necessarily desire to physically visit Italy or Belgium.

Also, the question of divided loyalties by flying a flag of one's ancestral nation also depends on the flag in question being seen as representing one's ancestry and not a government of the current country. Often immigrants who flee countries they disliked living in might not fly that flag, especially if they are political or war refugees. I suspect that's why for instance, lots of diasporas don't fly their old country's flag (the flag of current day China is not flown much in Vancouver or Toronto, despite the huge Chinese diaspora, many GTA Sri Lankan Tamils disliked the Sri Lankan government and won't fly that flag etc.).

[Capsicum]

Now thinking about it, since eastern Ontario is heavily Scottish in some places, are Scottish flags common there in rural areas (I can't remember seeing many)?

[Docere]

While the Irish are the largest ethnic group in Renfrew County, it also received German and Polish immigration in the 19th century.

Wilno is "Canada's first Kashubian settlement" and "Canada's first Polish settlement."

http://www.wilno.com/

ETA: Just looked up the stats, and while it has the more "typical" Eastern Ontario demographic of 30% Irish and 23% French origins, 22% in Renfrew declared German origins and 10% Polish.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by megadude

Here's a couple of examples from Delhi. Pronounced "Dell-high".

Originally Posted by Docere

7% of Norfolk County is of Belgian origin, rising to 14% in Delhi.

I grew up around Delhi, and I always forget that people find the pronunciation weird. I mean, it's exactly as it's written There so happens to be a big city in India that people mispronounce

Anyway, Delhi has a number of ethnic halls. The German is the largest and most well known. The Belgian just closed last year, also a Hungarian hall and a Polish Hall. And lots of people from all of those nationalities in the area. There are lots of "Van de ...." last names, and I find it almost follows the county lines. In Norfolk a VanDeSomething is probably Belgian, in Oxford a VanDeWhoever is most likely Dutch. From Norwich to Woodstock Dutch is by far the dominant nationality, and then there's more and more German names as you move towards KW/New Hamburg etc.

Back to SW vs Eastern Ontario, from my perspective in SWO, Eastern Ontario to me is pretty much anything past the GTA roughly... Belleville is East for sure, maybe even Peterborough and Rice Lake. Cobourg not so much, maybe because they have that great beach.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

What about Mexican flags among Mexican-American communities?

I think I've seen plenty of cases where that's common stateside in a number of cities. Maybe not necessarily in rural areas (but there are still lots of Mexican Americans in rural areas).

I think it would be quite rare for Mexican-Americans to fly ONLY the Mexican flag on buildings and properties. (At sporting events and protests might be a different story, though.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I grew up around Delhi, and I always forget that people find the pronunciation weird. I mean, it's exactly as it's written There so happens to be a big city in India that people mispronounce

Anyway, Delhi has a number of ethnic halls. The German is the largest and most well known. The Belgian just closed last year, also a Hungarian hall and a Polish Hall. And lots of people from all of those nationalities in the area. There are lots of "Van de ...." last names, and I find it almost follows the county lines. In Norfolk a VanDeSomething is probably Belgian, in Oxford a VanDeWhoever is most likely Dutch. From Norwich to Woodstock Dutch is by far the dominant nationality, and then there's more and more German names as you move towards KW/New Hamburg etc.

Back to SW vs Eastern Ontario, from my perspective in SWO, Eastern Ontario to me is pretty much anything past the GTA roughly... Belleville is East for sure, maybe even Peterborough and Rice Lake. Cobourg not so much, maybe because they have that great beach.

I went to university in Ontario with a lovely girl from that part of the province who said she was of Flemish Belgian origin. I still remember the name of her town even though she never really was interested in me beyond just friends.

Yup, that town is in Norfolk County.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Now thinking about it, since eastern Ontario is heavily Scottish in some places, are Scottish flags common there in rural areas (I can't remember seeing many)?

It's not super common but you do see them from time to time. Also Scottish flag stickers on cars you may also see.

The Union Jack is also seen here and there on rural properties in Eastern Ontario.

Though the Canadian flag is far more common of course.

[MolsonExport]

Flemish Belgian origin

I am also partly Flemish Belgian.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I grew up around Delhi, and I always forget that people find the pronunciation weird. I mean, it's exactly as it's written There so happens to be a big city in India that people mispronounce

Anyway, Delhi has a number of ethnic halls. The German is the largest and most well known. The Belgian just closed last year, also a Hungarian hall and a Polish Hall. And lots of people from all of those nationalities in the area. There are lots of "Van de ...." last names, and I find it almost follows the county lines. In Norfolk a VanDeSomething is probably Belgian, in Oxford a VanDeWhoever is most likely Dutch. From Norwich to Woodstock Dutch is by far the dominant nationality, and then there's more and more German names as you move towards KW/New Hamburg etc.

Back to SW vs Eastern Ontario, from my perspective in SWO, Eastern Ontario to me is pretty much anything past the GTA roughly... Belleville is East for sure, maybe even Peterborough and Rice Lake. Cobourg not so much, maybe because they have that great beach.

Now that you mentioned Hungarian, I just remembered I saw a random Hungarian flag in front of a plaza on a utility pole with no Canadian one near it while perusing google maps. I thought it was odd. Then I saw the name Bossy Nagy Group on the sign behind it. Nagy is Hungarian. I still found it odd that just a Hungarian flag would be there and no Canadian one. And especially for an accounting firm?

Then I looked up the hall you mentioned. And looked down the street and saw other flags.

Is there some kind flag festival that occurs in Delhi? On the utility poles I also see Portugal, Slovakia, South Korea, Wales, Greece, Germany, China, Britain and of course Canada. Do the flags represent the heritage of the business owner?

Start here and scroll down the street:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.85465...7i13312!8i6656


Just scrolled down some side streets and I see Lithuanian, US, Scottish Lion flag, Cyprus and more Welsh and Canada flags.

[megadude]

Okay I briefly googled it and didn't find anything. Then I changed my search words and found it (from Delhi News Record):

Rows of flags from 30 different cultures could soon line the streets of Delhi's downtown core.

The initiative is being headed by Chris Wolfer, owner of Delhi Uniform-I-Tee on Main Street, and the Delhi BIA in an effort to show everyone how multicultural Delhi really is.

"How much do you appreciate your heritage?" Wolfer asked. "We want to show just how incredibly multicultural Delhi really is. We have all the halls but the halls don't represent all the different nationalities here in Delhi. We want everyone to know that someone came here from a certain country and decided to settle here."

Back in 2000, BIA co-chair Ron Vandenberghe says cultural flags were flying in Delhi, but they were not as permanent as the BIA would have liked.

This kind of reminds me of Downtown Oakville regarding historical plaques. On many of the homes there, they have a plaque showing the name and occupation of a former resident (maybe original resident?) from way back in the day.

I've noticed a handful of plaques in Downtown TO on heritage buildings that are businesses now but used to be homes.

Anyway, this relates to the thread I started about what makes a small downtown charming. You don't want a downtown to be bland. Anything to add some colour and pique one's interest helps. Well if it's done in a tasteful way like this flag display. I like that they say they'll be replaced on an annual basis so they don't show wear and tear. I like that they won't let them turn all raggedy and defeat the purpose of the display.

[Acajack]

There are at least one or two cities in northern Ontario (can't remember which ones) that have a huge amount of flags displayed on a street or a road that are supposed to represent each and every origin that is present in the city. It makes for a lot of flags.

There was some debate IIRC as to whether or not the Franco-Ontarian flag should be there among the Lithuanian, Croatian, Italian and Lebanese, etc. flags. And it wasn't just the "mean anglos" (;-)) questioning that either - some francophones thought it wouldn't be appropriate for them to be in there with immigrant groups. (Note that I am pretty sure the Union Jack, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, etc. flags are there.)

I can't remember what was decided.

[Docere]

Ethnic origins of Delhi (population centre):

Canadian 1,465 35.9%
English 1,190 29.2%
German 720 17.6%
Irish 690 16.9%
Scottish 640 15.7%
Belgian/Flemish 585 14.3%
French 420 10.3%
Hungarian 340 8.3%
Dutch 330 8.1%
Polish 170 4.2%

[Docere]

Originally Posted by jonny24

In Norfolk a VanDeSomething is probably Belgian, in Oxford a VanDeWhoever is most likely Dutch. From Norwich to Woodstock Dutch is by far the dominant nationality, and then there's more and more German names as you move towards KW/New Hamburg etc.

I think Norfolk and Kent were the major Flemish immigrant areas in the 1920s. Postwar immigrants from the Netherlands sort of "filled in the gaps", and moved into Oxford County and so on.

[megadude]

With all these Dutch names being mentioned here, I just looked up the last name of a girl I dated for a little bit back in my school days who was from outside London. Yup! It's Dutch. Didn't realize that at the time. Doesn't start with Van de or whatever so it hadn't dawned on me until now.

[manny_santos]

I somehow missed this thread until now but it is of interest to me having lived in both SW and Eastern Ontario.

Eastern Ontario is much more military-oriented - between Trenton, Kingston, Petawawa, and the fact Ottawa is the national capital, there's very much more of a military culture in the east. While the military is active in the east, in the SW it is more of a historical curiosity; there's former bases in London and Clinton, and there's a museum at the London one. Attending a Remembrance Day ceremony in Kingston is a whole other experience compared to attending one west of Toronto; in Kingston you'd see young soldiers who had fought in Afghanistan and knew people who died there. In SW Ontario, you'd see WWII and Korean War vets.

I found social conservatives to actually be very common in Eastern Ontario. Not so much in Kingston, but in the rural areas to the north and east, particularly the Polish- and Irish-influenced areas west of Ottawa. I also found Catholics in Eastern Ontario to be far more conservative than in the SW; as an example, the old Catholic tradition of not eating meat on Friday is still very much observed among Catholics in Eastern Ontario, while in SW Ontario it is a long-forgotten memory that some may give token observance to on Good Friday only. Eastern Ontario Catholics tended to talk more about issues like "modesty of dress" for women, topics I never, ever heard about before I moved out there. Active opposition to gay marriage is still a thing among some of the Catholics I know out there, while it has pretty much dropped off the radar in the SW.

I also observed more of a libertarian landowners' rights culture in Eastern Ontario. Driving on rural roads north of Kingston, I was actually a little unsettled by the high number of "No Trespassing" signs on virtually every property (some properties would have 3 or 4), and even the occasional "Back Off Government" sign. These types of signs are very rare in rural SW Ontario; in the SW you're more likely to find signs inviting you onto their property to buy eggs or honey. (Lanark County in particular is where Ontario's landowners' rights movement was born).

There is definitely some ethnic difference as well. Outside of Ottawa, Eastern Ontario feels distinctly white. In SW Ontario, even rural areas have a certain degree of diversity, and this partially comes from TFWs working on farms around areas like Simcoe, Delhi, Tillonsburg, Aylmer, Leamington, and Kingsville. As an example you'll find authentic Mexican restaurants or food trucks in Simcoe or Aylmer. You won't find anything similar in Merrickville or Renfrew.

In urban areas, however, the differences between Kingston, Ottawa, London, Kitchener, or Windsor are not all that great. They are all mid-size cities trying to thrive in Ontario; they all have universities which bring similar issues, and they all have issues with trying to hold onto young people who are attracted to Toronto.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I found social conservatives to actually be very common in Eastern Ontario. Not so much in Kingston, but in the rural areas to the north and east, particularly the Polish- and Irish-influenced areas west of Ottawa. I also found Catholics in Eastern Ontario to be far more conservative than in the SW; as an example, the old Catholic tradition of not eating meat on Friday is still very much observed among Catholics in Eastern Ontario, while in SW Ontario it is a long-forgotten memory that some may give token observance to on Good Friday only. Eastern Ontario Catholics tended to talk more about issues like "modesty of dress" for women, topics I never, ever heard about before I moved out there. Active opposition to gay marriage is still a thing among some of the Catholics I know out there, while it has pretty much dropped off the radar in the SW.
.

I agree with you about social conservatives - especially up in Cheryl Gallant country NW of Ottawa.

But regarding Catholics, are you talking about Anglo-Catholics or Franco-Catholics? Because with only a few exceptions Franco-Catholics in Eastern Ontario tend to be as liberal as they come. Talking about social issues like abortion and gay rights is almost verboten in francophone Catholic churches most anywhere in Canada, for example.

Interesting post BTW - just because I question some things doesn't mean I don't broadly agree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

In urban areas, however, the differences between Kingston, Ottawa, London, Kitchener, or Windsor are not all that great. They are all mid-size cities trying to thrive in Ontario; they all have universities which bring similar issues, and they all have issues with trying to hold onto young people who are attracted to Toronto.

I'd agree but with the caveat that I wouldn't lump in Ottawa with the others on this one. Ottawa is more than just "trying to thrive", and doesn't have any real problems attracting and holding on to young people.

[Capsicum]

But even these mid-sized cities still don't have the problem of holding on to people in the same manner as the so-called midwestern US "rust belt", or parts of Atlantic Canada. Or if they lose some, the gains are still able to make up the losses, right? It's just some young folks leave, some arrive (including those young folks from the GTA who might be looking for a new place to study and work). Some of those cities, towns and regions just differ in what kinds of people arrive (eg. Kingston from students, maybe SW Ontario more from say immigrant workers).

I would not think of either eastern or southwestern Ontario as a place where people are fleeing. Not gaining or attracting as much as the big city like Toronto can by comparison, but not doing poorly.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I somehow missed this thread until now but it is of interest to me having lived in both SW and Eastern Ontario.

Eastern Ontario is much more military-oriented - between Trenton, Kingston, Petawawa, and the fact Ottawa is the national capital, there's very much more of a military culture in the east. While the military is active in the east, in the SW it is more of a historical curiosity; there's former bases in London and Clinton, and there's a museum at the London one. Attending a Remembrance Day ceremony in Kingston is a whole other experience compared to attending one west of Toronto; in Kingston you'd see young soldiers who had fought in Afghanistan and knew people who died there. In SW Ontario, you'd see WWII and Korean War vets.

I found social conservatives to actually be very common in Eastern Ontario. Not so much in Kingston, but in the rural areas to the north and east, particularly the Polish- and Irish-influenced areas west of Ottawa. I also found Catholics in Eastern Ontario to be far more conservative than in the SW; as an example, the old Catholic tradition of not eating meat on Friday is still very much observed among Catholics in Eastern Ontario, while in SW Ontario it is a long-forgotten memory that some may give token observance to on Good Friday only. Eastern Ontario Catholics tended to talk more about issues like "modesty of dress" for women, topics I never, ever heard about before I moved out there. Active opposition to gay marriage is still a thing among some of the Catholics I know out there, while it has pretty much dropped off the radar in the SW.

I also observed more of a libertarian landowners' rights culture in Eastern Ontario. Driving on rural roads north of Kingston, I was actually a little unsettled by the high number of "No Trespassing" signs on virtually every property (some properties would have 3 or 4), and even the occasional "Back Off Government" sign. These types of signs are very rare in rural SW Ontario; in the SW you're more likely to find signs inviting you onto their property to buy eggs or honey. (Lanark County in particular is where Ontario's landowners' rights movement was born).

There is definitely some ethnic difference as well. Outside of Ottawa, Eastern Ontario feels distinctly white. In SW Ontario, even rural areas have a certain degree of diversity, and this partially comes from TFWs working on farms around areas like Simcoe, Delhi, Tillonsburg, Aylmer, Leamington, and Kingsville. As an example you'll find authentic Mexican restaurants or food trucks in Simcoe or Aylmer. You won't find anything similar in Merrickville or Renfrew.

In urban areas, however, the differences between Kingston, Ottawa, London, Kitchener, or Windsor are not all that great. They are all mid-size cities trying to thrive in Ontario; they all have universities which bring similar issues, and they all have issues with trying to hold onto young people who are attracted to Toronto.

Excellent post.

A lot of Catholics in SW Ontario would be union members, or have family members with that type of background. Maybe that leads to a more "social justice" orientation?