Formation of a REAL pro-development group in Halifax

[worldlyhaligonian]

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I stopped reading most of the above posts about halfway through. I think we need to be a little more light hearted here, otherwise we're lose focus and become distracted from what this thread is about. Everybody has the right to an opinion and attacks on people aren't cool.

Yet, I said this was all about consensus, I think that making jokes is fine like Barrington did.. he has his right to laugh about various matters... I think its a valid point for what he's trying to express about each group, and quite funny. I like alot of aspects of Toronto, however unlike alot of upstart Haligonians I have lived a number of other places. Some aspects of Toronto I would love Halifax to have, but others not so much (i.e. alot of the GTA urban sprawl, which I don't personally count as "Toronto"). I think this is healthy discussion. I'm not worried about Halifax becoming Toronto, we are on the ocean out here and have too much soul.

I know alot of people from here are well travelled, but until you live somewhere its really hard to judge what its really like. Honestly, I would like Halifax to be more like Rotterdam, but thats doubtful. (Which is sad considering their consensus model: see Dutch Polder Model)



Furthermore, which of you has actually lived in Toronto for any extended period of time? it sounds like you're talking about a different city than the one I know. I've lived there several times and in different areas, I'm talking from one end of the city to the other. I think Toronto has amazing public transit and most don't live far fom the TTC. (which is almost impossible with the great bus and streetcar network)

[Nilan8888]

Toronto's great for a lot of things: you don't notice it by what you hear, but crime seems to be all right. you read about this or that but it seems there's worse going on with Montreal's biker wars and even worse with the problems in Vancouver. Everything here seems to be teenage related for some reason.

It's definately more diverse... although it seems it just sort of ended up that way. There's way more of an Italian community here, but Halifax does has a significant Greek and Lebanese presence.

The main gripe is really the transit system. If anything it's the necessity being the mother of invention. Toronto's had geography and simple layout maybe a bit TOO much in it's favor. This city is dense but not as much as it could be. And it's currently being underfunded -- ride the Bloor line and you start to sense some of that. That and the fact there's only 3 real subway lines, the third of which is extrenious. And there's turf conflicts between York region and TO transit that mean that if you're busing out of the GTA, you pay a second time getting off the bus. Going into the GTA they stop the bus and have everyone pay again (that didn't already). And once you get beyond the main streets these buses are about as reliable as in Halifax.

Halifax is smaller so yes, it doesn't have these problems and there's time to, hopefully, plan. Learn from Toronto's successes... but also it's mistakes.

[spaustin]

Toronto had a great transit system once and it still does in places, but the problem is they never kept it up and now they're dealing with a system that hasn't expanded significantly in decades while the region as a whole has seen explosive growth. There are plans on the books now to hopefully rectify that, but it remains to be seen if the various levels of government have the stomach to fund it.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Edited

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

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I stopped reading most of the above posts about halfway through. I think we need to be a little more light hearted here, otherwise we're lose focus and become distracted from what this thread is about. Everybody has the right to an opinion and attacks on people aren't cool.

Yet, I said this was all about consensus, I think that making jokes is fine like Barrington did.. he has his right to laugh about various matters... I think its a valid point for what he's trying to express about each group, and quite funny. I like alot of aspects of Toronto, however unlike alot of upstart Haligonians I have lived a number of other places. Some aspects of Toronto I would love Halifax to have, but others not so much (i.e. alot of the GTA urban sprawl, which I don't personally count as "Toronto"). I think this is healthy discussion. I'm not worried about Halifax becoming Toronto, we are on the ocean out here and have too much soul.

I know alot of people from here are well travelled, but until you live somewhere its really hard to judge what its really like. Honestly, I would like Halifax to be more like Rotterdam, but thats doubtful. (Which is sad considering their consensus model: see Dutch Polder Model)



Furthermore, which of you has actually lived in Toronto for any extended period of time? it sounds like you're talking about a different city than the one I know. I've lived there several times and in different areas, I'm talking from one end of the city to the other. I think Toronto has amazing public transit and most don't live far fom the TTC. (which is almost impossible with the great bus and streetcar network)

Ahh...the Dutch. Now this is something worth talking about. Was in Rotterdam last week...fantastic city. I love TO - and they do have a great transit system - but we need to look beyond NA for examples of good urban design/planning. Halifax has more in common - and much more to gain - from cities in western Europe, and there are so many comparable in size (even Rotterdam isn't much more than 500,000 people).

And if you are looking to Europe for inspiration, the Netherlands can't be ignored. Perhaps a focus of your group can be to bring forward exemplary projects and presenting them into current debates in the city. Big city canadian models and examples from the US are not often that appropriate for Halifax and may only serve to restrict ideas. Introducing some new perspectives/processes/etc. outside of the standard examples can help to convey the potential of Halifax and - for those that say it can't be done - some great examples of it being 'done'.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Yeah, but honestly... you can get anywhere on the TTC if you live in Toronto proper... its not that bad, I was there last week and was all over the city.

Halifax should just avoid the sprawl problem to begin with...

Anyway, this thread is more for admin of the group we are creating, lets please get off this topic... we'll have plenty of discussion at our first meeting, coming in early May!!!

Well the new massive park just announced will help that. Including the harbour I think Halifax proper is now surrunded on all sides which might mean more build-up in the city (fingers crossed).

[someone123]

I am not sure why people talk as if Halifax can "avoid" sprawl when it has already been happening for the past 50 years. Most of the city is suburban or exurban and it already has a big effect on the city's ability to provide services. Halifax is in fact much more sprawled than Toronto and, given the way the HRM is set up and how things tend to go in the city, expends a lot more energy promoting sprawl at the expense of the downtown and inner neighbourhoods.

Toronto transit is seriously lacking but Halifax has zero rapid transit to speak of. I've lived in Toronto and I took the subway every day with 2 minute peak frequencies. There is nothing like that in Halifax.

A big strength is that the core parts of Halifax are compact and walkable but again that is a very small part of the overall city and is not necessarily being built upon much these days.

I am currently living in Vancouver. The gang violence thing is seriously overblown, or at least I don't really see it in my part of the city. Overall, I would say that Vancouver is the most similar big city to Halifax (by far) and that it is doing a significantly better job right now, in 2009, of building better infrastructure and focusing development. Right now there's a subway being built, a streetcar line, a bunch of new bridges, new convention centre, Olympic venues, etc. etc., and they are already talking about another transit line to be built across the city. It's all worth billions and in Halifax terms would be equivalent to projects in the hundreds of millions, not a couple of cat bylaws and a $10M transit project once a decade.

[Barrington south]

I definitely agree that looking to western Europe for inspiration and ideas would be a very good idea

[Nilan8888]

I am not sure why people talk as if Halifax can "avoid" sprawl when it has already been happening for the past 50 years. Most of the city is suburban or exurban and it already has a big effect on the city's ability to provide services. Halifax is in fact much more sprawled than Toronto and, given the way the HRM is set up and how things tend to go in the city, expends a lot more energy promoting sprawl at the expense of the downtown and inner neighbourhoods.

Toronto transit is seriously lacking but Halifax has zero rapid transit to speak of. I've lived in Toronto and I took the subway every day with 2 minute peak frequencies. There is nothing like that in Halifax.

I think it's more a matter of "Halifax CAN avoid sprawl" if it starts changing the way things are done as opposed to Toronto where they can't because it's already happened. Even someone that lives on the outskirts can get to work in a reasonable timeframe... for now.

If, theoretically, Halifax were to spend most of its new growth in infill and try to limit moving very far beyond the 102/Dunbrack border, the trend might be reversed. Which isn't likely to happen of course, but you never know.

But there's hope. Halifax itself actually doesn't reach very far in on the mainland and other than Timberlea (that area's been a bit TOO busy) and what I'm guessing was the 60s- mid 80s stretch out into Spryfield; most of the TO-type sprawl seems to me to have happened over in Dartmouth. There hasn't been all that much housing action out in say, Hammonds Plains, has there?

I'm sure we're a long way off from that, though. It's an uphill climb when people are going on and on about how, say, Schmidtville has to be saved when I think it's pretty reasonable to encourage those people to sell thier houses instead when the time comes to make way for some form of downtown expansion.

[Barrington south]

definitely the sprawl of Toronto is unenviable, but at least high density in the core is encouraged...where as Calgary for example, has lots of sprawl but it's core remains underutilised...I think limiting sprawl will be a difficult yet achievable goal ... although some growth on the fringe of hrm will always be necessary, both for the economy and for population growth....some people neither want to ....or can afford to live in a house on the peninsula....however, I am very concerned about the density of the core...with HBD, we now have height restrictions that are virtually written in stone...There are many things I I dearly like about HBD, but it's height limitations i think are a major fault

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

There hasn't been all that much housing action out in say, Hammonds Plains, has there?

[Dmajackson]

^To put what Someone123 is trying to say in words ...

Yes, Hammonds Plains is experiencing growth. It was the fastest growing district in HRM during the last census.

[alps]

Euch, and it'll only get worse if the 113 is built

[Nilan8888]

Yep, sure: those are bad signs that I won't deny. And I stand corrected as far as growth there is concerned. I don't think that's at the point of no turning back yet though, which is kinda the case here. I don't think the traffic situation is as bad. Whether or not it's the terms of scale that's saving Halifax's butt at the moment, Halifax isn't there yet. If those neighborhoods slowed down a bit while density started picking up now in downtown I think we'd end up with a managable situation.

At present it's still possible for people with a reasonable level of income to buy within the city proper, so they're not as forced as they would be elsewhere to buy in places like Hammonds. As the city grows without infill that'll be less likely as we move along since less living space will mean higher prices, but I feel we're still at a stage where a difference can be made.

In the situation here, it's done, done and done and it's a game of playing catchup.

[someone123]

The commute times are the big difference. In terms of coping with the sprawl, the means available are more or less proportional to city size. Halifax is less able to do something about its suburbs than Toronto is at the moment.

[Nilan8888]

Sure. Less people means less funds. Halifax isn't able to do nearly as much as TO is directly like, say, build or extend a transit system like a subway or the big 8-laner plus highways.

[worldlyhaligonian]

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[DigitalNinja]

I'd be seriously interested in joining this and may be able to bring in one or two other people as well. I think that a point the group should make is that limiting the height of buildings and not working on the core of the city is costing more money. The infastructure is already in place for the most part in mainland halifax. Where as the out lying areas need roads, water, sewage, snow removal, street cleaning. Lots of different things that cost a lot more that designating an area of the city for high rise buildings.

Also on the point of low cost low quality buildings, using spice and I think that one on agricola street if I'm correct use low cost products and look cheap giving a bad name to the city. I mean what kind of multi story condo uses siding on the facade?

Development can promote the preservation of heritage buildings. By giving developers tax breaks if they keep the facade of the original building on the lower levels and keep it good. Right now 50% of heritage buildings in halifax are NOT being kept up to standards, with nets over them to catch any bricks that may fall off. That's not something to be proud of! Keeping those nice facades that you see on the ground level while incorperating height and revitilizing the heritage buildings threw the means of developers should be where the cities focus is.

I kinda went off on a rant there, but I just wanted to say. I'm back behind this 100% and I added you on facebook.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Edited

[Empire]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

I'd be seriously interested in joining this and may be able to bring in one or two other people as well. I think that a point the group should make is that limiting the height of buildings and not working on the core of the city is costing more money. The infastructure is already in place for the most part in mainland halifax. Where as the out lying areas need roads, water, sewage, snow removal, street cleaning. Lots of different things that cost a lot more that designating an area of the city for high rise buildings.

Also on the point of low cost low quality buildings, using spice and I think that one on agricola street if I'm correct use low cost products and look cheap giving a bad name to the city. I mean what kind of multi story condo uses siding on the facade?

Development can promote the preservation of heritage buildings. By giving developers tax breaks if they keep the facade of the original building on the lower levels and keep it good. Right now 50% of heritage buildings in halifax are NOT being kept up to standards, with nets over them to catch any bricks that may fall off. That's not something to be proud of! Keeping those nice facades that you see on the ground level while incorperating height and revitilizing the heritage buildings threw the means of developers should be where the cities focus is.

I kinda went off on a rant there, but I just wanted to say. I'm back behind this 100% and I added you on facebook.

I hope you find the formula for eliminating ugly buildings. The issue is; not many people can identify an ugly building. For those who can, the task is enormous to correct the problem essentially because it already slipped through the giant HRM planning cracks. There is no political will or avenue to address this issue. It is, in my opinion, tied with heritage destruction as a major contributor in destroying this town.