Rail-based Transit Discussion

[DigitalNinja]

I to agree with Fenwick. It is already hard enough to navigate narrow streets without a big train in the middle.
I really don't think much time would be saved from buses and trains.
The only way it would be practical would be something like Shanghai's maglev system which travels at 400kph in some points. Otherwise buses are just fine here.
Also just a curiosity, but would a subway be viable in a city like halifax?

[Phalanx]

I'm guessing the terrain is too difficult (too much rock, too many hills), and our population not nearly dense enough to make a subway practical. Not to mention that none of the established infrastructure was built with subways in mind.

[hfx_chris]

Good lord folks, you're aware that modern trolley coaches are the same physical size, and in many cases look identical to a diesel bus, the only difference being the power poles at the back? I don't know why we're talking about tracks in the pavement when the bloody things use rubber tires. It's no more "intimidating" than a diesel bus - in fact I would say less intimidating, because it doesn't have the noisy diesel engine.

I think you guys are mistaking trolley coaches with trams or street cars.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Good lord folks, you're aware that modern trolley coaches are the same physical size, and in many cases look identical to a diesel bus, the only difference being the power poles at the back? I don't know why we're talking about tracks in the pavement when the bloody things use rubber tires. It's no more "intimidating" than a diesel bus - in fact I would say less intimidating, because it doesn't have the noisy diesel engine.

I think you guys are mistaking trolley coaches with trams or street cars.

We were talking about both. The main advantage of trolley buses is that they are electric and therefore better for the environment. Streetcars run on tracks, as we know. I don't see the advantage of either over hybrid buses, especially with technological advantages such as hybrid buses. In fact buses aren't confined to a steet-based track which is an advantage for buses.

If it is LRT, heavy rail or subway on a right of way track free of traffic lights and cars then there is a definite advantage. My point is that buses are better than streetcars (on tracks) and trolley buses (i.e. the ones with power poles but on tires). Halifax has had both in the past and phased them out in favour of buses. On the other hand, if Halifax could construct a subway or rail system with a right of way track then it would be better than buses (although much more expensive).

I don't like the idea of a LRT running on a street-based rail track together with cars and traffic lights. If that is what we are talking about, then this system doesn't have any great advantage over buses (unless it is mainly operated on a completely separate track and then operates for only a few city blocks on a street based track it would be an advantage). There are many different LRT systems that can be considered.

[halifaxboyns]

I think the difficulty with LRT (in my mind) is that with the densest part of the city fully built out - in order to get a ROW for an LRT - you have to expropriate property. I've suggested it in my initial post; but it's not a happy process.

An LRT would be easier for out in some of the burbs into new greenfield areas; but getting it into the city is going to be tough.

As for trollycars, streetcars, etc - it was merely a suggestion. I've driven in toronto and I do feel affraid driving with them on their streets. But it was merely a thought.

I'm sad to hear that the downtown shuttle has been cancelled though - when was that cancelled? Why? What happened to it?

[fenwick16]

If it were possible (just forget about the cost) to use the rail cut and then have the LRT on the downtown streets for just a few city blocks then it might be a good solution. Even better, if it were possible to use the rail cut and have a short subway through downtown Halifax (a few kilometers in length) with it being just below street level to minimize the construction cost. This would service the suburbs and drop people off right downtown.

The only system that I can see happening in the near future would be a rail system with a drop off location at the VIA station near the Westin Hotel and then have transfers to city buses. (Even this depends on CN allowing the system to use the rail lines).

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

We were talking about both.

I was talking about trolley coaches. And your point that they are confined to a particular route is also moot, because they can be ordered with batteries onboard to allow travelling for significant distances off the grid, in order to say detour around construction or accidents.

Anyway, getting back to the LRT discussion...

Originally Posted by fenwick16

If it were possible (just forget about the cost) to use the rail cut and then have the LRT on the downtown streets for just a few city blocks then it might be a good solution.

I've been suggesting the exact same thing right from the start. My suggestion includes making Lower Water one-way northbound for its' entire length, then having the tracks along both L.W. and Hollis, running to the Cogswell area where a new terminal could be included in whatever future redevelopment happens there.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I was talking about trolley coaches. And your point that they are confined to a particular route is also moot, because they can be ordered with batteries onboard to allow travelling for significant distances off the grid, in order to say detour around construction or accidents.

That is interesting, that they can operate for significant distances off the grid. However, you would still have overhead lines which don't look very appealing. I remember when Halifax had trolleys (I was very young at the time). I remember them down near the Spring Garden Road and Barrington intersection (at least that is what I faintly remember). I just don't see why they would be preferable to buses (especially hybrid buses which can also operate for significant distances on battery power).

I would really like to see a LRT system in Halifax similar to what you have described. Hopefully Halifax will continue to grow and will be able to afford such a system in the future. It would also be great to see a line operating under the harbour (although it might make the ferries redundant if in the same geographical area).

[worldlyhaligonian]

How much does 1 km of two lane ashphalt cost?

The rail cut would be great as an express bus in the mean time. There could be stations Downtown, at Smu, Dal, Quinpool area, Chebucto and all the way out to bedford.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't know when everyone seemed to start to believe that LRT isn't standard gauge - it is everywhere but Toronto (at least in Canada, all of Western Europe, and the USA). Even the new lines in Toronto will be built to standard gauge.

The biggest difficulty for co-mingling trains is the railways safety standard in North America called 'FRA'. Basically, to operate on a shared track, there either has to be very generous time separation (which is what the O-Train in Ottawa uses, freight trains run sometimes on the line at night) or the cars have to be FRA compliant like the BUDD Via Rail car someone posted last page, or the locomotive & bi-level car setup that is used all across the continent to solve this problem.

As for normal street operation and buses vs. trolleys vs. streetcars, streetcars are definitely superior if you put in place the policies to support them. The main advantage is in the focusing of higher density real-estate development along the route. (other advantage is in lower lifecycle costs, and operating costs). The are expensive to start with however and provide no advantage to average commuters over buses beyond 'rail bias' (legibility and ride quality).

For a first phase I have to say I would avoid service on the peninsula, and run a feeder system for the harbour ferry terminals/ downtown in Dartmouth. I assume that it would be much easier to gain access to the ROW there, and it would be pretty cheap to implement a service level close to the O-Train in Ottawa.

Getting rail transit on the peninsula that is actually an improvement over buses in anything other than aesthetics is going to be really expensive.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

For a first phase I have to say I would avoid service on the peninsula, and run a feeder system for the harbour ferry terminals/ downtown in Dartmouth.

This would be almost worthless. You could put in a dedicated right of way and great rail service but it wouldn't do anything particularly wonderful for anybody. Dartmouth is very suburban, so the few people who lived near stations would still own cars, and getting downtown would involve a transfer to a slow ferry, ultimately destroying whatever advantage was gained by adding rail service. This is why the existing MetroLink BRT service runs over the bridge to Scotia Square terminal.

The best way by far to start a system would be to go from the downtown to a convenient transfer point for suburban express buses - either the bridge terminal or Lacewood (preferably Lacewood first). This would cost actual money but no more in proportional terms than what's been done in half a dozen other cities across Canada.

It's probably even worth starting out a system with a fully dedicated right of way just so that it can be automated. An elevated system with small trains and relatively high frequencies would provide vastly better service than what exists and wouldn't have the labour costs.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ The amount of passengers needed to justify automated rail are far far out of Halifax's league, plus I am pretty sure there would be huge opposition to the trains downtown. You need a system that for metro's population is affordable - building the Canada Line Halifax edition is definitely not.

[halifaxboyns]

Sir.humphry makes a good point (although I'm sorry to say this, but when I saw you nick name, all I could think was Mr. Humprey's are you free? Sorry I was watching Are you being Served at the time I read your post - no insult intended).

Anyway...building any transit infrastructure like LRT or rail in Halifax will be mega expensive and unfortunately the density anywhere in the city isn't high enough - yet.

I think if it were to go forward - there would have to be a huge risk taken on the part of the city to get the infrastructure in place first and then build the density up second; which is never a happy idea because it takes a long time to recover the costs and you may never get the density levels you want.

Plus considering the level of money the city has - it would be a huge effort (we're talking the total cost of their capital/operating budgets for 2010 times by at least 2 or 3 - so in the 1Billion mark). I estimate it that high because of the geology that would have to be dealt with and the difficulty of setting up a new right of way through heavily developed areas.

I still believe that if you want to do transportation like this - the rail line is the cheapest way to go for initial setup and operation since the cut is already there. But I'd be supportive of anything frankly; that would improve Halifax.

I like the idea that someone mentioned about Hollis Street and Lower Water - I've always believed those streets should be one way in opposite directions and that the on street parking should be removed. That way; you'd have better traffic flow and you could do a trolly down one side.

As to the trolly discussion - if you could do a trolly that wouldn't require an overhead line; I'm all for it - I don't really like those overhead lines.

[Keith P.]

I think the one area that really has been overlooked in all this is BRT. Consider: there is a rail ROW from Mill Cove (beyond there actually, but let's keep that out of it for now) that has space because one of the lines has been removed. You could make that into a dedicated bus roadbed and run them as far as the Cogswell interchange or beyond. It is far more flexible and uses technology that the city already is comfortable with. You could do the same with the aforementioned Chester spur. I wonder why this has not gotten more interest.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I think the one area that really has been overlooked in all this is BRT. Consider: there is a rail ROW from Mill Cove (beyond there actually, but let's keep that out of it for now) that has space because one of the lines has been removed. You could make that into a dedicated bus roadbed and run them as far as the Cogswell interchange or beyond. It is far more flexible and uses technology that the city already is comfortable with. You could do the same with the aforementioned Chester spur. I wonder why this has not gotten more interest.

This sounds great to me. After all the Montreal subway runs on rubber wheels, why not dispense with the track all together. I was thinking about this on the weekend, i.e. running buses on ROW paths throughout the city. This is something that could possibly be implemented economically. Does anyone know of such a system elsewhere (is this usually the case with BRT, i.e. ROW routes)?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This sounds great to me. After all the Montreal subway runs on rubber wheels, why not dispense with the track all together. I was thinking about this on the weekend, i.e. running buses on ROW paths throughout the city. This is something that could possibly be implemented economically. Does anyone know of such a system elsewhere (is this usually the case with BRT, i.e. ROW routes)?

Well for me; I like to think of the city's transportation in a multi-model perspective. I've posted before my thoughts on the high speed ferry and what research I came up with in university.

So I see the key to solving the transportation problems in HRM like this:
1) Have multiple modes of transit (bus, BRT, rail, ferry);
2) While still keeping the major focus on the class 1 office space in downtown HRM (including downtown Dartmouth), dispurse office/commercial growth (class 2 space) throughout HRM (Burnside, Bedford, Bayer's Lake, Dartmouth Crossing);
3) Focus higher density around existing and potential transit nodes for multi-model; and
4) Potentially take a risk - they might come?

BRT is a great way to see what potential there could be for LRT or rail in areas; most larger cities do that (Ottawa and Calgary for example). Calgary just added a 3rd BRT called Route 302 which mimics the proposed SE LRT line, which is on the books, but not slated for construction for 20 years.

Ultimately; no matter what you build and how you build it (route, etc) people will choose the mode of transportation that best works for them. The key here for city transportation is to make rail, brt, bus or ferry the better option both in the time it takes and the ease. With the cancellation of the free downtown bus route - that would make rail more difficult because there wouldn't be a bus to connect too (as an example).

I think for the sake of ease, ferry might be right up there with rail for the sake of getting things off the ground quickly and expense wise.

The other thing to remember though about any new LRT line or going outside the current rail cut is how do you get the rail there? If it's already a developed area - then you need to take land from something (either people's homes, road widening etc).

[MalcolmTucker]

The O-Bahn Busway in Adelaide, basically a guided bus that outside the corridor runs just like normal.

If ROW can be secured in the cut, it might be the best option to provide extra capacity into downtown, while not having disadvantages of the buses like needing wide ROW.

[fenwick16]

How about the Ottawa Transitway BRT system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Transitway . A BRT system with ROW so that it can maintain schedules during rush-hour and reach speeds similar to LRT.

[halifaxboyns]

I don't see CN allowing buses in the cut; I just can't see how their safety rules for rail traffic would allow it?

A transit way would be interesting - but yet again if you can't use the cut, then how do you build it? You'd be talking about taking land from businesses and homes along the route for the creation of transit only lanes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to make tough decisions like this - just it will be a political nightmare!

[MalcolmTucker]

^ How wide is the cut right now in most places? Enough for 3 tracks?