Another out of town trip...another depressed HX_Guy...

[HX_Guy]

What city this time? Our smaller coastal neighbor to the southwest, San Diego.

First of all...who in their right mind would ever use San Diego as a comparison to what Phoenix could be? How could Phoenix ever look like that? It couldn't...and you know why...because we don't have a crapload of old contiguous buildings that could be rehabbed. These are not mega projects or superblocks that are built today...these are individual buildings built over a century ago and as they simply say, they just don't build them like they used to.

I used to live in San Diego was I was little, and have visited numerous times, but this was really the first time I ever paid attention to it's downtown and was blown away. I had no idea we had such a legitimate downtown experience just 5 hours away.

I thought Phoenix's downtown was really turning a corner with how many restaurants are popping up but I was quickly brought back to reality after seeing how many restaurants can be packed into just a few sqaure blocks. I mean it was restaurant...after restaurant...after restaurant. Not one here...two a couple streets over...another one over there.

Alright...I think I'm done for now...here are some pictures to visually express it...

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show....php?p=4307412

[PHX31]

Yep, the fact that we've torn down nearly every contiguous block of our older building stock pretty much means we'll never have a "real" downtown (whatever that means). I've resigned myself to that fact a long time ago and hope our city can build itself into something different yet lively. Other than the Majerle's block and maybe the couple of blocks around the orpheum, and the renaissance center north to the Central Station, everything else has been torn down. It's a shame, too, because there used to be tons of great century old blocks in downtown Phoenix that kind of look like what San Diego (and many other cities) look like still.

Take a look:

More can be found here: http://www.arizonahistoricalimages.org/

Good pics, BTW.

[HX_Guy]

Is there is an area of hope, it has to be the warehouse district which looks to have the most contiguous supply of older buildings in downtown. Right at the bottom end of the picture, up to US Airways Center and between Central and 4th St. Leaving every building that is currently there (No more demolishing!) and building on every lot that is currently a parking lot is what would be needed. Still though, I still can't grasp the thought that downtown Phoenix could ever support a Nordstroms like you see in San Diego...but who knows that will happen in the next 20 - 30 years.

For those of you who know San Diego...I've heard that Petco Park really helped out the area. Did it really make that drastic of a change? Why couldn't and didn't Chase Field here have a similar impact?

[admdavid]

Well, one thing good (and bad) about DT SD is the amount of residential space...mostly condos but some apartment buildings. There are about 450 condos available downtown with more coming online this year (about 750 or so). I couldn't tell you how many condo buildings there are...probably 15-20 complexes with more close by in Little Italy, Bankers Hill and the East Village.

Also, there are tons of large and small hotels, so there're plenty of out-of-towners walking around all the time.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Why couldn't and didn't Chase Field here have a similar impact?

Some might site Chases design and that it isn't particularly good as far as fitting into the urban form, but I dont think thats it. Obviously on the South and East sides it would be impossible for Chase to have a permeable edge due to the tracks and the bridge. The North side is really the only problem, the West side with the plaza and Sliders dose an above average job in my opinion of fitting into the urban form.

I think it was a lack of leadership and vision, which has long been downtowns problem. Until recently (and even now its tepid) there hasn't been a strong vision pushing downtown improvements to a strong enough degree or in a smart way. Mayor Phil was doing a good job compared to his predecessors, but the economic slowdown has obviously shifted priorities.

Another big thing was timing, Petco opened in 2004, Chase in 1998. When Petco opened Downtown San Diego had already gone through a lot of growth and revitalization, Chase predated a lot of downtown Phoenix's recent growth.

So I guess what Im saying is, I think you have the timeline mixed up. It wasn't: Petco opens----> Downtown SD is revived, but rather the opposite.

[admdavid]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

So I guess what Im saying is, I think you have the timeline mixed up. It wasn't: Petco opens----> Downtown SD is revived, but rather the opposite.

Very true...the Gaslamp had already ignited (pun intended ) Downtown San Diego prior to the construction of Petco. Although, with Petco came 3-5 more condo projects in its vicinity whereas Chase has really only spawned Summit.

[Vicelord John]

yes petco park had a huge effect and chase didn't because they built it like a suburban ballpark. petco engages the street, has historic aspects from the neighborhood built into it and actually feels like a ballpark not a shitty indoor soccer arena.

Can you tell how much I loathe chase field?

[HX_Guy]

Yea I found it pretty awesome how Petco opened up toward downtown and you could actually see a big section of seats from the downtown streets. I imagine that when a game is going on, it's a pretty cool atmosphere in downtown, even if you're not at the game...but just seeing the fans in the stadium from the street.



I know this wouldn't be possible in Phoenix due to the heat...but why could of had more windows or something to let the downtown view in.

[Vicelord John]

because people who plan things in phoenix get in a tizzy about getting something (so jappy for just anything) that they don't think about how they could maximize it's potential.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

yes petco park had a huge effect and chase didn't because they built it like a suburban ballpark. petco engages the street, has historic aspects from the neighborhood built into it and actually feels like a ballpark not a shitty indoor soccer arena.

Can you tell how much I loathe chase field?

But Petco doesnt really engage the street any better than Chase does. Petco, like Chase has rails on one side making it impossible to engage the street. Chase even has a somewhat permeable edge along the North side due to the Fridays entrance. It coulld be better if they built something on that small surface lot though (Id love to see a 5 story AZ Sports Hall of Fame there). The Garage Mahal is a much bigger perpetrator of that areas suckiness than Chase Field is.

I wish Chase had a cool view like Petco or PNC parks do, but its location makes that not really possible, all the skyscrapers are NW of it, not directly North. Even when the panels are open unless you're sitting higher up along the 1st base side you can't see much in the way of towers.

[TAZ4ate0]

Chase had to be an enclosed ballpark. The summers here are too brutal to get people to go to an outdoor baseball game in July and August. Whether Chase could have been designed as an indoor park with better views of downtown is debatable I guess.

[scottkag]

What Vicelord said -

Petco opens into the surrounding neighborhood (look at the north and west sides Hoover, not the railroad tracks to the south). During a game you can see and hear the crowd. There is a park attached to Petco that is open to the public on non-game days that ties the ballpark to the East Village neighborhood. And you have to walk on the streets past neighborhood businesses to get to the parking garages.

Obviously the weather here influenced the design of Chase/BOB, and it does not interact with its surroundings the way Petco does. No surprise it didn't have the "Petco Effect".

[PHX31]

Unless we knew the requirements from Major League Baseball regarding the direction the baseball diamond must face ( I assume all ballparks face to the north, even domed stadiums that have roof-open games occasionally), Chase field basically must be oriented as it is... It would be hard to incorporate a window bank on the northwest side of the ballpark, because seats need to go there. They could have made the whole north side a window bank instead of opening panels (see Houston's ballpark), but then also the garage mahal would need to be something else. If the garage mahal ever became high rise towers, the view from Chase as it is would be pretty sweet... especially from the east side upper deck - because you can see the skyline from there.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by scottkag

What Vicelord said -

Petco opens into the surrounding neighborhood (look at the north and west sides Hoover, not the railroad tracks to the south). During a game you can see and hear the crowd. There is a park attached to Petco that is open to the public on non-game days that ties the ballpark to the East Village neighborhood. And you have to walk on the streets past neighborhood businesses to get to the parking garages.

Obviously the weather here influenced the design of Chase/BOB, and it does not interact with its surroundings the way Petco does. No surprise it didn't have the "Petco Effect".

My argument is the 'Petco Effect' is being overstated. Downtown SD was already good, Petco just kept the momentum rolling, its the inverse of our situation. Chase (and AWA and the Convention Center) were built with the hopes of revitalizing downtown.

Its only physically possible for Chase to interconnect with the surrounding areas on 2 sides. One one side it does a good job (West) and on another (North) it does a mediocre job. But even if it did have a permeable North face it would be irrelevant becuase the North side of the road is a dead zone due to the garage.

You mention walking past local businesses to get to the garages, but thats not a design of the stadium itself but rather the peripheral things related to it. If the argument is that our garage set up (i.e. the Garage Mahal) are whats killing walkability in that area I agree whole heartedly.

I posted a long time ago, Id love to see the Garage Mahal demolished and replaced with maybe one or two levels of underground parking. On top put a park and either museums or some cultural amenities of some kind to interact with the Heritage Park area (i.e. a Barry Goldwater library & museum).

Theres no way we were going to have an open stadium here due to the weather. I don't think anyone really sees and hears the crowd at Petco either, that implies people go to Padres games

Originally Posted by PHX31

They could have made the whole north side a window bank instead of opening panels (see Houston's ballpark)

Id love to see the panels replaced with openable glass windows, but heat could be an issue.

You guys also have to keep in mind, Chase Field is one of the oldest stadiums in the NL (as hard as that is to believe). Retractable domes like Miller Park, Safeco Field, and Minute Maid park all learned from mistakes Chase may have made and improved on the design.

[Jsmscaleros]

I, too, have post vacation blues. Just went to NYC to visit the girlfriend.

What really struck me the most about Manhattan is the creative use of space when space is sparse...right. I'll post photos to illustrate (still sorting through several hundred), but an example is Fort Washington park along the Hudson (Washington Heights area). The park is built along the banks of the Hudson, sandwiched on the other side by the highway. Funny thing is, though, you almost don't notice the highway at all because the entire thing is elevated (similar to the stretch of the loop 202 west of the 101 interchange) with park space beneath it... basketball and volleyball courts, skateboarders, everything.

What we're dealing with in this city has to be the polar opposite... a city built at the height of the suburban revolution when cheap desert seemed to stretch on forever. No creative use of space and no ingenuity because they simply were not necessary at the time. I also think that because Phoenix is dealing with an unprecedented sprawl issue and the unique fact that we demolished our city core decades ago (literally, as you all know), we will have to innovate in the way we reinvent the city for the future. Copying what everyone else does just won't cut it in my opinion.

Maybe downtown will never make it how we all envision it - a very real possibility when you consider that the vast majority of those that moved here came here because they want the suburban lifestyle. I don't think we're screwed if that happens, I think we need to build for this unique place we have here instead of copy and paste.

[PhxPavilion]

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

What we're dealing with in this city has to be the polar opposite... a city built at the height of the suburban revolution when cheap desert seemed to stretch on forever. No creative use of space and no ingenuity because they simply were not necessary at the time. I also think that because Phoenix is dealing with an unprecedented sprawl issue and the unique fact that we demolished our city core decades ago (literally, as you all know), we will have to innovate in the way we reinvent the city for the future. Copying what everyone else does just won't cut it in my opinion.

Maybe downtown will never make it how we all envision it - a very real possibility when you consider that the vast majority of those that moved here came here because they want the suburban lifestyle. I don't think we're screwed if that happens, I think we need to build for this unique place we have here instead of copy and paste.

QFT

It's not just downtown either. I'm sure many of you have noticed how many large, empty lots there are along Central to Camelback. Lets face it, this is a suburban city where 95% of all development has been further and further out in the boonies year after year. No one lives downtown and no one has developed jack shit downtown until recently. It's also the reason for South Phoenix's demise.

[Gump]

Originally Posted by PhxPavilion

QFT

It's not just downtown either. I'm sure many of you have noticed how many large, empty lots there are along Central to Camelback. Lets face it, this is a suburban city where 95% of all development has been further and further out in the boonies year after year. No one lives downtown and no one has developed jack shit downtown until recently. It's also the reason for South Phoenix's demise.

We happen to be in the worst economy since the Great Depression. Just prior to it, we built a couple of residential high-rises, a new convention center, light rail, ASU Downtown, and ever expanding Genomics Research Facility, and world class hotel in less than 5 years. There are two 500,000 sq. ft office towers under construction and a brand new county courthouse. Restaurants are opening, and people are actually living downtown. While the downtown forgot about itself in the 70's-90's, the same is not true today.

Chicago, NY, San Francisco, Seattle, and even San Diego, did not pop up overnight. Phoenix may never be like Chicago or NY, but it does not have to be either. It just needs to continue to build on its recent success and then maybe people won't be so disappointed.

[PHX31]

/\ Problem is, when those cities did pop up, it was during a time of architecture, building, and planning that wasn't as focused on the car as much, but more towards density and the pedestrian. What Phoenix had of this type of cityscape was destroyed. Our current empty space in downtown phoenix is either overzoned or is a mega-parcel that will never have anything constructed that will recapture what was once there, nor will create (what most of us think of as) a great urban city.

The only way it would be possible is if the city breaks up its land into very small parcels and then all other landowners build 3-5 story (maybe mix in some higher rises) small developments that incorporate retail, offices, maybe light manufacturing and, of course, residential. But that will never ever ever happen. People will sit on their high-rise zoned over-valued land forever.

I was in San Diego this past weekend and walked all around downtown. There was just block after block of historic building stock that was being used as restaurants, shops, residential, etc. Mixed in with the high-rises and new condo buildings. We literally walked for 2 hours and found our way through the gaslamp, down Broadway and over to Seaport Village (that place actually sucks, but it's cool to look at the Harbor), then back up to the Gaslamp. We didn't make it through a third of downtown though. And there were tons of people all over the place on Saturday morning/afternoon.

[JAHOPL]

Portland, Oregon is the same way downtown. We visited a couple of weeks ago, walked around downtown on a Sunday afternoon, stopped in at one of the biggest new and used bookstores in the country, Powell's, they own the only building on the block, which takes up the whole block, and the streets were jam-packed with people, on a Sunday afternoon, I kept reminding myself. Every building is close to the sidewalk, intersections are 75 yards apart at the most, probably less, maybe 50 yards, and nearly every building has small ground floor retail stores, every building nearly, all open for business on a Sunday afternoon. Trees everywhere. I also kept telling myself how different this is from Phoenix, like another country.

[PhxPavilion]

Originally Posted by Gump

We happen to be in the worst economy since the Great Depression. Just prior to it, we built a couple of residential high-rises, a new convention center, light rail, ASU Downtown, and ever expanding Genomics Research Facility, and world class hotel in less than 5 years. There are two 500,000 sq. ft office towers under construction and a brand new county courthouse. Restaurants are opening, and people are actually living downtown. While the downtown forgot about itself in the 70's-90's, the same is not true today.

Chicago, NY, San Francisco, Seattle, and even San Diego, did not pop up overnight. Phoenix may never be like Chicago or NY, but it does not have to be either. It just needs to continue to build on its recent success and then maybe people won't be so disappointed.

Yeah, downtown and the Central corridor finally seemed to be on a roll to change the last couple years until the economy killed it in it's tracks.