Basketball in Canada

[megadude]

Think what you wanna think but I would probably pass too if I were a potential all star and my national team was a very average team with only an outside shot of a medal. I'd prefer to think of my future earning potential than play for the national team and risk injury. Or if I played for a gold medal contender and won, I'd say mission accomplished and probably bow out after that.

The vast majority of guys who are playing are bench players or non-NBA players who haven't already experienced the glory of playing years in the NBA and the big pay cheques that come with it. Playing in a WC or Olympics would be more meaningful to them.

Paul George destroyed his leg for the US in a meaningless scrimmage game and missed 9 months.

Steve Nash stopped playing for Canada at 30 years old. According to Wikipedia it's because he disagreed with Triano's firing. Maybe his back was starting to flare up at this point as well. Would you call him selfish?

See John Tavares 2014 Olympics. Broken leg, gone for the rest of the NHL season. What if it were torn ligaments instead? That could hurt your future playing ability as opposed to a fracture of the bone. I can tell you I've never had the same touch on the soccer ball since I dislocated my ankle with my foot pointing 90 degrees away from where it should be with every ligament torn a la Moises Alou and Jason Kendall in MLB. I would sure as hell be worried if my career and earnings depended on my ankle.

Willis McGahee blew out his knee in the CFB NC game, which his team ended up losing in OT. At least that was for the natty, any other bowl game and any of these high draft prospects have a totally legitimate reason to skip it.

Christian McCaffrey, who comes from excellent football stock as his dad was a former pro bowler, skipped his team's bowl game in his last year because he didn't want to risk injury. I believe he was the first high profile player to do this who was well healthy. That set the precedent and now quite a few guys have done the same. Some outright and some feigning a niggling injury.

Probably half or more of team USA's invitees dropped out. The funniest reason I read? JJ Redick said he'll be too busy moving from Phila to NOLA. And he was an invitee before for the Olympics but didn't make the cut. Here was his chance to rep. USA at the senior level and most likely win gold and he passed.

Then you have guys like LeBron, Carmelo etc. who went through multiple cycles with team USA for some reason, including qualifying games. Must have been pride and competitive spirit I guess. You would think after winning one gold medal to add to their trophy cabinet they'd move on.

These guys owe nothing to their country or school and its fans.

The two sports with the highest importance for the national team, where athletes get millions, is soccer and hockey. I respect the hell out of those guys for continuing this tradition despite having tens of millions to be earned ahead of them and risking injury. But I wouldn't be surprised if this starts to trend down in the next decade with guys saying no. All it takes is a couple of high profile injuries.

Messi hasn't been injured for ARG but he gets all kinds of flack for losing multiple finals with the NT and he's actually suspended right now for 3 months because he accused CONMEBOL of fixing the Brazil game. The only reason for him to play 18 quali games here and there for the WC off in SA during his European season must be self pride and chasing that glory. But he has plenty of reasons to walk away.

Oddly enough, cricket is full of star players who walked away from their national teams early even though playing for the NT is by far more prestigious than playing for your club, just like rugby. And these guys make a few hundred thousand to a million a year with the rare outlier of a couple guys over one million. They get paid per match played for the NT and then commercial obligations. You retire and you walk away from all that. You'd think they'd play as long as they can until the NT says go away because your peak earning years is such a small window. Last year, England's captain, Alistair Cook, retired at 33, nine months away from the WC at home. And he legendarily scored a century in his last match. Meanwhile, his teammate, fast bowler, James Anderson, is still going at 37 and he just got injured again in the current ashes series against Australia right now. The bowlers have more stress on their body due to the nature of their position.

It's like guys here who complain that Kawhi left and that he owed the Raptors more years of service for managing his injury even though it was not his choice to come in the first place and he delivered the ultimate prize for us anyway.

[megadude]

Just remembered this one. Let me add another one of your BC guys to this in addition to Nash.

But even though Boston signed one of Canada's top arms this off-season, the Maple Leaf was nowhere to be found.


With a brand new two-year, $26-million US contract, Ryan Dempster chose to stay with his new team this spring rather than make the trek to Arizona to join his countrymen on the international baseball stage.

"I'm going to be pulling for those guys [on Canada's national team] and hoping they do well, but this is what my situation is now," Dempster said Sunday after pitching three scoreless innings of one-hit ball against the New York Yankees.

"[Playing in the WBC] probably isn't the best thing for me to be doing physically while I'm trying to get ready for the season."

With 15 years of major league service under his belt, it's hard to think that Dempster has never represented Canada in an international tournament. And at 35 years of age, he may not get another invite.

Ya,I guess it's selfish to avoid getting hurt and not jeopardize the chances of the team that just signed you to big money.

[isaidso]

^^ Injury is a concern but it's bit much to feel no loyalty whatsoever to Canada Basketball, the system that got them to where they are. Almost all of our NBA players came up through Canada Basketball and have been supported by that organization throughout their development. The mentality of Canadian basketball players is slowly changing (Cory Joseph, Kelly Olynyk always say yes) but they still don't have the same mindset of other Canadian athletes. Can you imagine if Sidney Crosby and 75% of our best hockey players bowed out every time? The shit would hit the fan.

Originally Posted by megadude

Think what you wanna think but I would probably pass too if I were a potential all star and my national team was a very average team with only an outside shot of a medal. I'd prefer to think of my future earning potential than play for the national team and risk injury. Or if I played for a gold medal contender and won, I'd say mission accomplished and probably bow out after that.

Arguing that the national team is average so therefore not worth the bother is a cop out and ass backwards. Our national team is average because they don't show up, not the other way around. I might add that our hockey players show up for Canada at the Olympics and World Championships.

The root problem is that so many basketball players in this country think about the NBA and nothing else. If they played for the Raptors, how many of them view a gold medal for Canada as more important than a Toronto Raptors NBA title? All of them would say the NBA title... and by a long shot. In most sports its representing your country at the Olympics and World Championships that matters most. We'll one day get to a point where the NBA Championship is secondary but it will take another generation or 2.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Arguing that the national team is average so therefore not worth the bother is a cop out and ass backwards. Our national team is average because they don't show up, not the other way around. I might add that our hockey players show up for Canada at the Olympics and World Championships.

The root problem is that so many basketball players in this country think about the NBA and nothing else. If they played for the Raptors, how many of them view a gold medal for Canada as more important than a Toronto Raptors NBA title? All of them would say the NBA title... and by a long shot. In most sports its representing your country at the Olympics and World Championships that matters most.

My guess is that Canadian basketball doesn't really have a culture of following and playing for the national team. Canadian kids who play the game grow up watching NBA, NCAA and maybe the Olympics where most probably pay more attention to the USA Dream Team than the Canadian squad.

In terms of the success of the national team having an effect, I am not sure that's the case as in soccer there is a passion for following and playing for the national team in all countries, even those that have never won and who likely never will win.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Arguing that the national team is average so therefore not worth the bother is a cop out and ass backwards. Our national team is average because they don't show up, not the other way around. I might add that our hockey players show up for Canada at the Olympics and World Championships.

When the NHL lets them, yes.

Otherwise, no.

[isaidso]

^^ Sure but the point was that our top hockey players view playing for Canada as very important. That hasn't completely translated to basketball yet.

Originally Posted by Acajack

My guess is that Canadian basketball doesn't really have a culture of following and playing for the national team. Canadian kids who play the game grow up watching NBA, NCAA and maybe the Olympics where most probably pay more attention to the USA Dream Team than the Canadian squad.

It was a problem Canada Basketball started addressing ~10 years ago. The Canadian national team was off the radar completely. It was only 11 years ago that I went to see France play Canada at the Air Canada Centre and only perhaps 500 Torontonians bothered to show up. It spoke volumes about the basketball culture here. I knew attendance would be atrocious but seeing an empty arena really shocked me.

Canada Basketball has made huge strides in keeping kids in the system and focusing their attention on FIBA. When they're very young playing for Canada at the U16, U17, U18, U19 squads is kept front and centre. Cory Joseph came up under that system as did Tristan Thompson. Their mindset is very different than the players who came up 10 years before them. It's why Thompson not playing was the biggest surprise of all the no shows.

Originally Posted by Acajack

In terms of the success of the national team having an effect, I am not sure that's the case as in soccer there is a passion for following and playing for the national team in all countries, even those that have never won and who likely never will win.

Megadude made that argument; I was responding by pointing out that their rationale was ass backwards. My view is that the strength of the national team should have no bearing on an athlete's decision. I also agree with you that it's not what will ultimately change the basketball culture. Canada Basketball's strategy of involving kids with the national teams will. The media has a hand to play as well. Canadian media used to ignore our national basketball teams entirely but even there I've seen a sea change. They talk about Kia Nurse, the success of the women's national team, and CBC even live streamed the Canada - Nigeria game yesterday. 10 years ago that never would have happened.

It should all be premised on the fact that Canadians won't watch our national teams if they're not competitive. These days we have quality talent and depth. The final piece in the puzzle is getting players dialled in and breaking the tunnel vision many of them have for the NBA. The NBA will always be important but playing for Canada should be too.

[JHikka]

The issue with the FIBA World Cup is that it isn't exactly best-on-best. One look at the US team would tell anyone that they're not taking it seriously whatsoever. I'm sure Canada would have no issue having players report if we were ever able to qualify for the Olympics.

It's the same with the World Championships in hockey - it's not entirely best-on-best so not every player is 100% committed to going. Only the Olympics are truly best-on-best with the NHL's blessing.

[king10]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The issue with the FIBA World Cup is that it isn't exactly best-on-best. One look at the US team would tell anyone that they're not taking it seriously whatsoever. I'm sure Canada would have no issue having players report if we were ever able to qualify for the Olympics.

It's the same with the World Championships in hockey - it's not entirely best-on-best so not every player is 100% committed to going. Only the Olympics are truly best-on-best with the NHL's blessing.

Olympics should be a U-23 tournament and FIBA WC should be the gran daddy of them all similar to soccer IMO. Then you don't need your best players showing up twice in a 4 year cycle, only once.

[megadude]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ Injury is a concern but it's bit much to feel no loyalty whatsoever to Canada Basketball, the system that got them to where they are. Almost all of our NBA players came up through Canada Basketball and have been supported by that organization throughout their development. The mentality of Canadian basketball players is slowly changing (Cory Joseph, Kelly Olynyk always say yes) but they still don't have the same mindset of other Canadian athletes. Can you imagine if Sidney Crosby and 75% of our best hockey players bowed out every time? The shit would hit the fan.



Arguing that the national team is average so therefore not worth the bother is a cop out and ass backwards. Our national team is average because they don't show up, not the other way around. I might add that our hockey players show up for Canada at the Olympics and World Championships.

The root problem is that so many basketball players in this country think about the NBA and nothing else. If they played for the Raptors, how many of them view a gold medal for Canada as more important than a Toronto Raptors NBA title? All of them would say the NBA title... and by a long shot. In most sports its representing your country at the Olympics and World Championships that matters most. We'll one day get to a point where the NBA Championship is secondary but it will take another generation or 2.

I don't pay too much attention to how the players are coming up and how much Basketball Canada has to do with that but the higher end guys play at prep schools in the US or that academy in Orangeville. Maybe that has more to do with their development than Basketball Canada? Though I don't know if that org. funds some of the Orangeville academy for instance.

So I see the support from them as secondary at most. And it's a trade off. They support the player to help them become better players and put Canadian basketball on the map and hopefully represent them down the road. The fact that they got drafted high in the NBA and some guys are all stars or borderline all stars accomplishes that mission of putting us on the map. I don't see any obligation for them to actually represent Canada internationally at senior level when they are getting paid big bucks by their club teams.

They have historically been average or bad. Fielding a team of 12 NBA players right now is definitely no guarantee they even make the QF considering it wasn't long ago US was losing to Spain, Lithuania, Argentina, etc. in tournaments when they were stacked and the other teams had like two NBA players.

Now if this were even just five years ago with the culture back then, I'm sure way more guys would turn up and wouldn't have NBA GMs whispering in agents' ears asking their players not to play in tournaments. Then Canada could have got the ball rolling and we could potentially be perennial medal contenders by now, but it's unlucky that we only now have this wealth of NBA caliber talent.

And as has been pointed out, the Canadians that play at the World Championships are mostly non-all star type players with the occasional all star that suits up a couple times in his career after getting knocked out of the playoffs. I don't think you'll see Connor suit up every time EDM misses out. Ryan Smyth was quite the exception though.

It's always been that way in NA vs Europe and the ROW. NBA first. Wasn't that long ago there were almost zero Euros in the NBA and therefore not banking those big bucks. NT meant more to them than their club teams. It could take decades for that to change here and may never happen. And in fact, we could see the same thing in Europe. Don't be surprised if Porzingis declines playing for Lithuania ever again, maybe play more time or something in the future, especially since he's coming off a major injury now.

[megadude]

Let's look at baseball for example. Way more of the best players have suited up for Japan, Dominican, Cuba, etc. than for USA. In the ROW the NT means a lot more for sports like basketball and baseball.

I know Basketball Canada has more of a role in a players development than whatever equivalent there is for American baseball, but seems to me for most American ball players repping their nation isn't on their radar. And if they all suited up they would be the gold medal favourite every time.

Canadian Basketball NT is about as popular as USA Baseball NT. Not on many people's radar. The current crop of players grew up knowing about as much of the NT as your average Canadian now. So why should the star Canadians feel a connection big enough to override the concerns of their clubs giving them tens or hundreds of millions?

Oh hold on, is that another BC guy I see mentioned at the bottom of the article? I know Dencity likes to stir shit up in this thread.

“A key to the W.B.C.’s success is to have the best possible rosters we can have,” Commissioner Rob Manfred acknowledged in Phoenix last month, just after spring training began. “I think we’ve made real progress this time around in terms of the quality of the rosters.”

That is debatable, especially when it comes to the United States pitchers. In 2013, the starters were R. A. Dickey, Gio Gonzalez, Derek Holland, Ryan Vogelsong and Ross Detwiler. Later this week at Marlins Park, another first-round site, these starters will represent the United States: Chris Archer, Danny Duffy, Marcus Stroman and Tanner Roark.

Undoubtedly, all of those pitchers have talent. But this year’s group has combined for one All-Star selection (by Archer in 2015) and zero World Series starts.

Injuries naturally whittled the pitching pool a bit. The former All-Star Sonny Gray, who dealt with trapezius and forearm injuries last season, was denied a spot by the event’s insurance carrier. Max Scherzer, a two-time Cy Young Award winner, backed out with a finger injury.

Yet it is startling to consider how many healthy American starters will not be going. Besides Kershaw, Bumgarner, Kluber, Syndergaard and Verlander, there are Jake Arrieta, Zack Greinke, Cole Hamels, Kyle Hendricks, Jon Lester, Rick Porcello, Chris Sale and Aaron Sanchez. That’s 13 healthy, ace-level pitchers who won’t be there.

To its credit, baseball recognizes the tournament’s limited appeal to American fans, who are conditioned to care primarily about their favorite team.

“The U.S. is always going to be a bigger challenge,” Manfred said. “People have Major League Baseball here. During the spring, they have spring training games as well as the W.B.C. But the one thing that occurs to me off the top of my head is a good performance by the United States certainly would be helpful to the event here in the United States.”

There is enough talent to spare. Two third basemen who have won Most Valuable Player Awards, Josh Donaldson and Kris Bryant, will not play — but Nolan Arenado might be just as good, and he will. Giancarlo Stanton, whose raw power is unmatched, will also take part. Buster Posey, the American catcher, has an M.V.P. Award and three World Series rings.

“I’m not sure the USA has all the best players,” Mariners manager Scott Servais said Wednesday. “If it really wants to be a world event, that needs to happen.”

To be fair, the U.S. will have former NL MVP Buster Posey at catcher and former NL MVP Andrew McCutchen in the outfield. It will have two-time NL MVP runner-up Paul Goldschmidt at first base and last year’s NL MVP runner-up Daniel Murphy at second. Outfielder Giancarlo Stanton, owner of the largest contract in MLB history, is also on the roster, as is third baseman Nolan Arenado, who was second in the NL in WAR last year.

This might be the best collection of talent the Americans have ever assembled, but it pales in comparison to what might’ve been.

ADVERTISING


Who you won’t see is Angels outfielder Mike Trout, the best player of the century. Who you won’t see is Dodgers pitcher Clayton Kershaw, the best pitcher of the century.

Reigning NL MVP Kris Bryant won’t be there, nor will 2015 AL MVP Josh Donaldson or 2015 NL MVP Bryce Harper. And then there’s the pitching staff — which won’t include Max Scherzer, Corey Kluber, Noah Syndergaard, Madison Bumgarner or anyone else among MLB Network’s top 100 players in baseball.

What’s the deal?

Well, one of the primary concerns is health, especially among pitchers. Mariners left-hander James Paxton declined a chance to play for Canada after an injury-plagued 2016, noting that the WBC could derail his season if his body wasn’t ready.

[suburbanite]

I mean this isn't exclusive to Canada or even basketball.... The U.S. team consists pretty much of De'Aaron Fox and Donovan Mitchell right now. Lowry wants to play but is rehabbing surgery.

The fact is that NBA players, and specifically North American players, don't care about FIBA basketball. The Olympics is the only international competition that holds weight for most in the professional community. Hockey holds Olympic Gold in much higher regard than the World Championships as well.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by megadude

Just remembered this one. Let me add another one of your BC guys to this in addition to Nash.




Ya,I guess it's selfish to avoid getting hurt and not jeopardize the chances of the team that just signed you to big money.

Yup this ain't cool either.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The fact is that NBA players, and specifically North American players, don't care about FIBA basketball.

Most fans don't either. And why should they? The NBA championship is the pinnacle of the sport.

The difference with football/soccer is that the World Cup and the Euros actually do mean a lot due to greater international parity. Messi and Ronaldo will still go down as among the very greatest footballers of all time, and their lack of World Cup success doesn't tarnish their reputations, but it is still a small but annoying career asterisk for them (as is Ronaldo's game-leaving injury in the 2016 final that Portugal won anyway).

I say this as a huge fan of the World Cup, the greatest sporting event in the world. "Life is what happens between World Cups," a sage once said. But it isn't the same for basketball, where international competition isn't compelling at all.

[suburbanite]

There are times when international competition picks up mainstream media attention, but it's for the Olympics. Argentina's gold medal in 2004 and the subsequent redemption tour for the Americans in 2008 is pretty well-known among most basketball fans from what I can see.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by rousseau

The difference with football/soccer is that the World Cup and the Euros actually do mean a lot due to greater international parity.

Because there are so many competitive teams spread across every single knook and cranny around the world. Everybody plays soccer. There's never really a consensus, runaway favourite. FIBA basketball is typically USA versus whomever and it's not entirely compelling - it won't be until more countries catch up to the US.

Hockey is getting better, at least. There's usually five or six countries that can conceivably win every major international tournament and that at least makes it a little bit interesting.

[megadude]

And there you have it. And what if he just signed a big shiny new contract?

NBA
18h ago

Canada's Olynyk bruised, Boucher withdraws
It appears Team Canada's Kelly Olynyk dodged a major injury in Wednesday night's win over Nigeria. According to Blake Murphy of The Athletic, Olynyk will miss a week with a bruise after slipping and falling hard on his knee during the third quarter of Wednesday's game.
TSN.ca Staff




It appears Team Canada's Kelly Olynyk dodged a major injury in Wednesday night's win over Nigeria.

Team Canada head coach Nick Nurse said Thursday Olynyk will miss a week with a bruise after slipping and falling hard on his knee during the third quarter of Wednesday's game.


Olynyk, who was helped to the locker room Wednesday, will not travel with the team to Winnipeg for Friday's rematch against Nigeria due to a wedding, but will rejoin the team when they head to Australia for three exhibition games before the FIBA World Cup.

Canada will, however, be without Toronto Raptors forward Chris Boucher for the World Cup. Boucher withdrew from the tournament on Thursday citing personal reasons.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by megadude

And there you have it. And what if he just signed a big shiny new contract?

Then it would mostly be the owner getting screwed over financially, which is why owners in most sports are against their players competing internationally. Funny enough though the NFL is the only big 4 league in NA without fully guaranteed money and also no international competition

[megadude]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Then it would mostly be the owner getting screwed over financially, which is why owners in most sports are against their players competing internationally. Funny enough though the NFL is the only big 4 league in NA without fully guaranteed money and also no international competition

Yes but if a guy was on a one or two year deal and the owner come contract time might say hey remember when I signed you last time and then you suited up for the NT and you got injured? That lack of loyalty to your employer rubbed me the wrong way.

I personally would love all these guys to play but I'm being a realist and just trying to explain the rationale for this new trend of dropping out.

[WhipperSnapper]

I don't see a reason for a business valued in the tens to hundreds of millions to risk it all in an international tournament that doesn't get a lot of publicity.

I can't explain why the NHL has a higher participating in these events but, it's hardly a reason to hold against other leagues and players should it be, and I have doubts, about patriotism.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I can't explain why the NHL has a higher participating in these events but, it's hardly a reason to hold against other leagues and players should it be, and I have doubts, about patriotism.

Part of this would be that Americans don't equate their sports players with representing them internationally - at least not in their most popular sports like gridiron football, baseball, and basketball. There's a very clear dividing line between American athletes on the international stage (Phelps, Armstrong, etc) and popular American athletes domestically. Like, Tom Brady is never going to be equated with playing for the US; even basketball players aren't really equated with playing internationally even if they have in the past. There's no connection between those popular American sports and representing the US internationally. Baseball comes close.

In Canada at least we have hockey, which has an international history (Summit Series / Olympics), so there's an immediate connection with our best players (say, Gretzky) playing for Canada. NHL players are more likely to play internationally because there's a history and mystique to doing so. Nobody joins a long list of famed players when they suit up for Canada at FIBA, but they do if they play for Canada in hockey.