Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Edwara19]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I live in Gatineau which is just about as "Canadian" as you can get in Quebec while remaining francophone and without being in an anglo enclave in Montreal.

I have teens and outside of pandemic times my house is revolving door of young people between the ages of 17 and 21.

Most of my immediate family and my wife's are in Ontario from eastern Ontario the GTA. Quite a few teens and young adults there as well.

The Quebec young people in Gatineau I know are fairly diverse and not just French Canadians but are still noticeably different from the Ontario young people I know. Not Japan-Congo different, but still different enough as I said. And I am not just talking about language. One of my kids recently told me that about one quarter of their friends were in favour of Quebec independence. I found that quite surprising given the movement is in the doldrums.)

If you ask someone who works at universities like U of Ottawa which get a lot of students from both provinces, they'll tell you the Quebec kids have a lot of notable "cultural" differences from the Ontario kids (not just talking about TV and music). This is even true of Québécois francophone kids from Hull vs. Franco-Ontarien kids from Orleans, and they're only 15-20 km apart.

So I guess we have different experiences.

Interesting. Yes, I guess we do have different experiences. I am curious what cultural differences these U of O profs are talking about. Any ideas?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Edwara19

Interesting. Yes, I guess we do have different experiences. I am curious what cultural differences these U of O profs are talking about. Any ideas?

Behavioural and values discussions focusing on Quebec vs ROC don't typically go well on here. If you want to PM me though I'd be pleased to share what I've observed and heard.

I guess I am getting old but I am just not down for yet another "Toronto has more dirty sluts than Montreal, bucko!" type of argument on here!

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Edwara19

Maybe it's more noticeable in the older generations.

For the most part, yes.

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Behavioural and values discussions focusing on Quebec vs ROC don't typically go well on here. If you want to PM me though I'd be pleased to share what I've observed and heard.

I guess I am getting old but I am just not down for yet another "Toronto has more dirty sluts than Montreal, bucko!" type of argument on here!

That last part actually sounds fun to... oh, that's a bad thing. Right.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Franco401

That last part actually sounds fun to... oh, that's a bad thing. Right.

It was fun... the first 100 times.

[JHikka]

Only French should have official status as minority language in Canada: CAQ

"Reaction from anglo groups was swift and negative, with a warning that Ottawa must not cede any responsibility for official languages to the provinces.

QUEBEC — The Coalition Avenir Québec government has sparked an angry reaction from Quebec’s English-speaking community over its vision of reforms to Canada’s Official Languages Act.

“This is a non-starter,” said Quebec Community Groups Network (QCGN) president Marlene Jennings.

“Quebec is attempting to territorialize language by demanding that the government of Quebec have sole jurisdiction for linguistic planning and control on its territory and displacing federal leadership on the protection of Canada’s official language communities,” Jennings said.

“Quebec’s perspective on Canada’s Official Languages Act is just that — a provincial view. It is not a national vision. This distinctly self-serving provincial perspective undermines more than half a century of consensus around official languages and linguistic duality as a pillar of Canada.”

Greg Kelley, the Quebec Liberal critic for relations with English-speaking Quebecers, took a swing at Premier François Legault.

“It’s another example of François Legault’s autonomist strategy,” Kelley added. “He (the premier) doesn’t have any interest in making the Canadian federation work.”

The two were reacting to a press release from Quebec’s Minister for Canadian relations and the Canadian francophonie, Sonia LeBel.

Released Friday morning, the statement outlines a kind of provincial shopping list on how Quebec envisions reforms to the Official Languages Act.

A key clause states French should be the only language given official minority status in Canada as opposed to the current legislation that gives both minority status. That would mean French should be the only language recognized as needing to be protected and promoted across Canada, including Quebec."

https://montrealgazette.com/news/que...-in-canada-caq

[MonctonRad]

A key clause states French should be the only language given official minority status in Canada as opposed to the current legislation that gives both minority status. That would mean French should be the only language recognized as needing to be protected and promoted across Canada, including Quebec."

Very interesting.

So, the 800,000 strong anglophone minority in Quebec deserves no linguistic protection whatsoever, yet the entire francophone diaspora elsewhere in the federation should be fully protected. Where's Acajack???

[Acajack]

You guys might find this interesting:

Indeed, in one legal case concerning the language of commercial
signs in Quebec, the Human Rights Committee of the United Nations
concluded that the Anglophone community in Quebec is not a minority in international law. This UN committee is a body of experts
whose role is to monitor and hear complaints against member states
with regard to the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights
to which Canada, and automatically its member states, is a party.
The UN committee has determined that a minority is a community
whose distinctive characteristic (language) is in smaller numbers and
weaker position within the state as a whole and not within a federated
unit such as a province. In Canada, it is the French minority across
Canada as a whole that has the legal status of minority in international
law. Therefore the Anglophone minority of Quebec cannot invoke
section 27 of the Covenant, which stipulates:
In those States in which ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities
exist, persons belonging to such minorities shall not be denied the
right, in community with the other members of their group, to
enjoy their own culture, to profess and practise their own religion,
or to use their own language.
It is only in the event of Quebec becoming an independent state
that section 27 and other instruments of international law such as the
International Declaration of the Rights of Minorities (1992) would
apply. The main difficulty with international law is its effectiveness;
in the event of a special treaty between Canada and an independent
Quebec concerning minority language rights, both parties would have
to agree on a dispute resolution mechanism whose decisions would be
binding on each other.

https://chssn.org/pdf/Research/CH3-2-16-2013-eng.pdf

[MonctonRad]

As soon as LeGeault finds this out, I'm sure he'll close down McGill, Concordia and Bishop's the next day..........

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Very interesting.

So, the 800,000 strong anglophone minority in Quebec deserves no linguistic protection whatsoever, yet the entire francophone diaspora elsewhere in the federation should be fully protected. Where's Acajack???

English doesn't require any protection on this continent. Except maybe in El Paso and Miami.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You guys might find this interesting:

Indeed, in one legal case concerning the language of commercial
signs in Quebec, the Human Rights Committee of the United Nations
concluded that the Anglophone community in Quebec is not a minority in international law. This UN committee is a body of experts
whose role is to monitor and hear complaints against member states
with regard to the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights
to which Canada, and automatically its member states, is a party.
The UN committee has determined that a minority is a community
whose distinctive characteristic (language) is in smaller numbers and
weaker position within the state as a whole and not within a federated
unit such as a province. In Canada, it is the French minority across
Canada as a whole that has the legal status of minority in international
law. Therefore the Anglophone minority of Quebec cannot invoke
section 27 of the Covenant, which stipulates:
In those States in which ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities
exist, persons belonging to such minorities shall not be denied the
right, in community with the other members of their group, to
enjoy their own culture, to profess and practise their own religion,
or to use their own language.
It is only in the event of Quebec becoming an independent state
that section 27 and other instruments of international law such as the
International Declaration of the Rights of Minorities (1992) would
apply. The main difficulty with international law is its effectiveness;
in the event of a special treaty between Canada and an independent
Quebec concerning minority language rights, both parties would have
to agree on a dispute resolution mechanism whose decisions would be
binding on each other.

https://chssn.org/pdf/Research/CH3-2-16-2013-eng.pdf

How is that relevant to anything?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As soon as LeGeault finds this out, I'm sure he'll close down McGill, Concordia and Bishop's the next day..........

I am sure he knows already.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

How is that relevant to anything?

Well, the Quebec government says Anglo-Quebecers should not be considered a linguistic minority, and it seems like the UN agrees.

Sounds pretty relevant to me.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Andy6

How is that relevant to anything?

It isn't.

Quebec makes laws for Quebec, the UN's opinion aside. I doubt the Government of Quebec would needlessly antagonize it's English-speaking population, unless there was a political angle one could 'win'.

Now, should the CAQ have to do something unpleasant whilst governing, poking the old bear as a distraction play is always a fun pastime.

I mean, how many unilingual anglos are there in Montreal/Quebec these days, except for a bunch of old holdouts? I can't imagine the employability of exclusively English-speaking people is very good there.

Poking the allophones is more tricky.

[Acajack]

It might not be relevant legally but it does provide an interesting perspective from a neutral body that is not caught up in the eternal Canadian psychodrama.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It might not be relevant legally but it does provide an interesting perspective from a neutral body that is not caught up in the eternal Canadian psychodrama.

I suppose.

I'm curious how it plays out globally. Are South African English speakers a protected minority? Hard to say, emigrating out of a country is harder.

Does it only work in areas where one can easily relocate? Moving out of Quebec is easy compared to emigrating from another country.

I mean, I still think unilingual Anglos in Quebec are fighting a silly battle from another era.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It might not be relevant legally but it does provide an interesting perspective from a neutral body that is not caught up in the eternal Canadian psychodrama.

No it really doesn't. They are just saying that from the perspective of international law, which deals with countries as wholes, a group that is a minority in one part of the country but a majority overall doesn't qualify as a national minority. That has nothing to do with the group's status in the country's internal politics.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Andy6

No it really doesn't. They are just saying that from the perspective of international law, which deals with countries as wholes, a group that is a minority in one part of the country but a majority overall doesn't qualify as a national minority. That has nothing to do with the group's status in the country's internal politics.

You're right, but it's easier to divert the topic away from the actual issue at hand rather than acknowledging that the province is doing anything actually wrong.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It might not be relevant legally but it does provide an interesting perspective from a neutral body that is not caught up in the eternal Canadian psychodrama.

Some in Quebec might have problems with the basis of that U.N. opinion - that Quebec has no identity in international law.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by lio45

English doesn't require any protection on this continent. Except maybe in El Paso and Miami.

If anything, those two cities make the case of just how dominant English can be, even in minority situations. From what I can tell, even though the vast majority of people in both of those cities are hispanophone, English remains the main language of business and government.