Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by jonny24

Not a dollar more than is contributed to a CFL stadium in Halifax.

The Ontario government and/or City of Toronto is supposed to contribute to a stadium in Halifax?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The Ontario government and/or City of Toronto is supposed to contribute to a stadium in Halifax?

It's our reparations for not supporting the CFL and/or not being Canadian enough and/or being too American.

[suburbanite]

I'd love to see Halifax get a CFL stadium/team. I'd personally contribute to a GoFundMe, but I think some of my fellow taxpayers might be hesitant.

[someone123]

It seems pretty unlikely but Halifax has an excellent site at the Wanderers grounds. It's actually getting better over time because a bunch of parking (I'd guess in the thousands of stalls, mostly unoccupied evenings and weekends) is going to be built nearby, it's got transit service already, it's walking distance to a bunch of hotels, universities, and it's already got a small stadium the current tenants want to expand.

Maybe someday the CFL promoters will switch gears and focus on cooperating to improve the Wanderers site and bring the universities on board. If covid ends soon and the soccer team does well they could eventually realign and expand the stadium for that use in the interim. The Bengal Lancers would probably need to relocate and Bell Road might need to be realigned but those are small obstacles in the scheme of things. There is a grassy temporary entertainment type area right across the street that the existing Wanderers stadium has already made obsolete. The parking there should go too. Since that lot was created, lots of structured parking has been added to the area.

[blueandgoldguy]

johnny24 might be referring to federal money. If there is no federal money going towards a CFL Stadium in Halifax, (and there was no federal money going to stadiums in Regina, Winnipeg (well, they did contribute a small amount to the training facility/fieldhouse for amateur football and the university but not the actual stadium infrastructure itself) and Ottawa, then there shouldn't be any federal money being allocated to a MLB Stadium in Toronto. While we are at it, Calgary and Edmonton didn't receive any federal funds for their new/soon-to-be constructed arenas.

It's generally accepted the larger the city/market, the larger the percentage of private funds allocated towards a new sports facility as larger tv deals, higher ticket prices and greater corporate support can support such an arrangement. Large markets generally pay for 100% or nearly 100% for new facilities. I always see Torontonians online boasting about how Toronto is the 4th largest metro in North America...an exaggeration if there every was one. However, if that's even close to the case, then it's time for the owners of the Jays to put on their big boy pants and pay for the $700 million to $1 billion price tag for a new stadium.

There is no added economic benefit to the city if a new stadium is built either as claimed by one or two posters here. After this proposed stadium is built those construction jobs disappear. There won't be any additional jobs in the new stadium compared to the old one...a similar number of concessionaires, janitorial staff, ticket sellers, chefs etc. Tourism to Toronto will remain remarkably similar as many people who travel to Toronto are there to partake in a variety of activities, baseball just happens to be one of those things. And the demand for new office buildings and condos in metro Toronto will be determined by other external economic forces, not a new stadium.

I would estimate 65%-75% of gate revenues in the modern baseball facilities is procured from 7,000-10,000 seats:

1. suites
2. club seats and tied into this...
3. all the seats in the lower bowl that extend from the first base around home plate and to third base on the other side (most of these are now premium club seats.
4. loges and restaurant seats located in various parts of the stadium including the formerly cheap bleacher seats.

What Rogers and their mouthpiece Shapiro want to do is extract more money from upper-middle, upper income and corporate interests with these new additional seating options. Look at Atlanta's new stadium (Truist Park) as a reasonable comparison for what Rogers/Shapiro would like to charge.

- several club options behind home plate with various levels of exclusivity - Truist Club, Chairman Seats, Executive Seats, Infiniti Tables, Infiniti Club Seats...all with their very own club lounges/restaurants
-exclusive seats near the dugouts including dugout infield and dugout reserved
-in the outfield, former cheap bleacher seats supplanted by the CHOP HOUSE with Chop House deck, Chop House Terrace and Below the Chop seating options

Prior to this year, I looked at the prices of these various premium seating options at Truist Park and they were considerably higher than comparable seats at Rogers Centre and that was not even factoring the CDN/US exchange rate!

This is what Rogers and Shapiro want. More high end seating options for which they can charge a significantly higher price and for which corporations and well-heeled clientele will gladly shell out regardless of the team's play. When the team's fortunes inevitably decline on the field, the impact of empty seats in the lower-priced general seating sections will not be as impactful to the team's bottom line.

Sure, there will be some benefits be it greater leg room, wider seats and better seating configuration (those seats by the foul poles from which you have to crane your necks to the right or left will be a thing of the past), but there will be a steep price to pay. The "cheap seats" in the upper deck will be sut in half. Fans will have to pay significantly more on average for this new stadium experience and they will not be reassured by Shapiro's past proclamations of offering a variety of enhanced experiences at the new pleasure palace. It all comes with a price.

As others have already stated, this is likely a fishing expedition by Rogers to see how much of an appetite there is from the public for a new stadium. Given how little they have invested in the old stadium over 20 years of ownership, I find it highly unlikely they would be willing to invest significant money into a new stadium unless the province/city pay 50% or more.

Step 1: Leak plans of new stadium to get public excited
Step 2: Release statement stating development cannot proceed without significant assistance from the government while touting the economic benefits of your plan
Step 3: Measure public reaction to these proclamations, and subsequent pressure on government officials to extract as many concessions as possible.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by someone123

It seems pretty unlikely but Halifax has an excellent site at the Wanderers grounds. It's actually getting better over time because a bunch of parking (I'd guess in the thousands of stalls, mostly unoccupied evenings and weekends) is going to be built nearby, it's got transit service already, and it's walking distance to a bunch of hotels, universities, etc.

Maybe someday the CFL promoter people will switch gears and focus on cooperating to improve the Wanderers site and bring the universities on board. If covid ends soon and the soccer team does well they could eventually realign and expand the stadium for that use in the interim. The Bengal Lancers would probably need to relocate and Bell Road might need to be realigned but those are small obstacles in the scheme of things.

The site is simply too small for a proper modern CFL Stadium

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by esquire

That said, if MLB does reduce the number of games such that the season starts at the end of April, then an outdoor stadium could be more realistic. But when has a pro league ever permanently shortened its season beyond minor adjustments? Is MLB likely to want to say no to an entire month of gate receipts and TV revenue?

I doubt they are going to reduce the number of games to allow a later seasonal start date. If they cut the regular season games, it will be to allow the season to finish earlier so they can put in more higher dollar playoff games. Talk is they loved having 16 playoff teams this past season and would like to explore that further.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's our reparations for not supporting the CFL and/or not being Canadian enough and/or being too American.

Or actively insidiously campaigning for its demise, you know posts like MLS 100% positive, CFL 100% negative. Sound familiar?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I don't know how anyone, especially on SkyScraperPage forum, would turn down the opportunity to sit outside on a nice summer's afternoon with a long skyline view in the distance.

Detroit:

Sure, but the season spans more than a nice summer's afternoon. They are at the point that winter only officially ends a week before the season starts now. And you aren't going to get that nice of a panoramic view of downtown Toronto from the Rogers Centre site, especially after they do all this development on the property after they remove the dome and put in whatever stadium they are talking about.

I really would love to see a plan for what land would be opened up there too. I have trouble visualizing how much smaller a structure they are talking about. For example, if they still aligned the field the way it is now, I can't imagine home plate being and further south of where it is now, since the bulk of your seating is still behind the plate. Even if you end the stadium just beyond the outfield wall, it's not that far to the railway tracks, how much are you going to build there? And this is assuming open air, otherwise that roof has to open to somewhere. Or do you build a permanent dome, no opening? I can see as many complaints about that as if they built no roof at all.

[elly63]

Quite a while ago I posted that I didn't think there would ever be another 40k+ stadium built in Canada, I think that may be even more true post Covid. I doubt things wlll ever go back to the way it was, I think at one time I thought "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" and that people couldn't wait to patronize sports again. I don't feel the same way now, this has gone on too long and habits are changing. JMO though.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

Quite a while ago I posted that I didn't think there would ever be another 40k+ stadium built in Canada, I think that may be even more true post Covid. I doubt things wlll ever go back to the way it was, I think at one time I thought "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" and that people couldn't wait to patronize sports again. I don't feel the same way now, this has gone on too long and habits are changing. JMO though.

I think the fan interest is there, but as blueandgoldguy has pointed out, the typical major league business model has no real use anymore for the unwashed masses who sit in the nosebleed seats. The old days of putting 55,000 people into Yankee Stadium or whatever are gone. The focus appears to be mainly on the handful of big spenders...

It's ironic, but it's practically inevitable that some of the Jays diehards who sit in the 500 level for games now and will soon be actively cheering Rogers on in their efforts to get a new ballpark will end up effectively priced out of the new place, if it gets built.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think the fan interest is there, but as blueandgoldguy has pointed out, the typical major league business model has no real use anymore for the unwashed masses who sit in the nosebleed seats. The old days of putting 55,000 people into Yankee Stadium or whatever are gone. The focus appears to be mainly on the handful of big spenders...

It's ironic, but it's practically inevitable that some of the Jays diehards who sit in the 500 level for games now and will soon be actively cheering Rogers on in their efforts to get a new ballpark will end up effectively priced out of the new place, if it gets built.

Baseball simply has the problem of too many games, too many seats and too much competition for the entertainment dollar. The irony of a mediocre low attendance team trying to downsize is that knocking 20,000 seats off per game still leaves you with 35,000 seats to fill for 81 games. You're dumping product unless you're in a baseball town or the team is doing well. It's a big expense to downsize too.

Hockey and basketball have less than half the capacity and games. It's more of an event to go, yet still providing enough revenue for team owners and opportunities to get Joe Average in the door.

The NFL is the other extreme for number of games. It why they can pack 60,000-82,000 people in for each game. It's also why tickets can be extremely hard to come by for the biggest teams.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by wave46

Hockey and basketball have less than half the capacity and games.

And arenas can be used often for non-sport events. Baseball stadiums get to host baseball games and the occasional concert or one-off sports event. A lot of the time they just sit empty.

Originally Posted by wave46

You're dumping product unless you're in a baseball town or the team is doing well. It's a big expense to downsize too.

There's only a handful of 'baseball towns', really. New York, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. The rest are mostly hit or miss and depend on the team doing well on a 5-7 year cycle to fill their stadium reliably. The problem for the Jays is that two of those baseball towns are in their division (Red Sox & Yankees) so it's even tougher for them to break through and be competitive.

Originally Posted by esquire

It's ironic, but it's practically inevitable that some of the Jays diehards who sit in the 500 level for games now and will soon be actively cheering Rogers on in their efforts to get a new ballpark will end up effectively priced out of the new place, if it gets built.

How many fans do we think transitioned from Maple Leaf Gardens to ACC, or from the Forum to the Bell Centre?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

And arenas can be used often for non-sport events. Baseball stadiums get to host baseball games and the occasional concert or one-off sports event. A lot of the time they just sit empty.

Yes. On the value metric for usage in North America, it probably looks something like this:

1. Indoor arena - hockey/basketball/most reasonably large concerts. There's a reason why the private sector builds and operates arenas in the largest metros in the country.
2. Multipurpose stadium - baseball/football/very large concerts/events
3. Baseball stadium - 81 games of baseball/very large concerts
4. NFL/football stadium - 10-11 games per season/very large concerts

There's only a handful of 'baseball towns', really. New York, Boston, Chicago, St. Louis, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. The rest are mostly hit or miss and depend on the team doing well on a 5-7 year cycle to fill their stadium reliably. The problem for the Jays is that two of those baseball towns are in their division (Red Sox & Yankees) so it's even tougher for them to break through and be competitive.

The best thing for the Jays would be to get out of the AL East. At large the point still holds though for baseball - there is simply too much product chasing too few dollars in most markets.

How many fans do we think transitioned from Maple Leaf Gardens to ACC, or from the Forum to the Bell Centre?

Most of them probably. Both were bigger venues than their predecessors.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Trois-Rivières has about 150,000 people in the CMA. It has not been home to a CHL team in about 25 years, though.

It has been confirmed that Trois-Rivières is getting an ECHL club.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The Ontario government and/or City of Toronto is supposed to contribute to a stadium in Halifax?

I even had typed out a few lines addressing this and decided not to. Yes I know most likely it would be provincial or city money, and therefore not really in any way linked. I meant more from an overall, if the universe was fair, if the GD BLue Jays get handed a stadium, it only seems fair that a group that actually needs some assistance (or at least less assistance than the megamonopoly owned big league team) gets help on a stadium too.

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

johnny24 might be referring to federal money. If there is no federal money going towards a CFL Stadium in Halifax, (and there was no federal money going to stadiums in Regina, Winnipeg (well, they did contribute a small amount to the training facility/fieldhouse for amateur football and the university but not the actual stadium infrastructure itself) and Ottawa, then there shouldn't be any federal money being allocated to a MLB Stadium in Toronto. While we are at it, Calgary and Edmonton didn't receive any federal funds for their new/soon-to-be constructed arenas.

And yes, federal dollars specifically should absolutely not be spent on a baseball stadium before it is spent on a Halifax stadium. As laid out above, the feds have actually been very consistent on not spending any money on stadiums, the only way I could see them turning around on that is to boost the economy, and in that sense Halifax makes way more sense than Toronto.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It has been confirmed that Trois-Rivières is getting an ECHL club.

Interesting. So is this an effect of Shawinigan having a lock on that region as far as the QMJHL goes?

It seems to me that the ECHL would be a tougher sell than a well established junior league like the Q.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

It seems to me that the ECHL would be a tougher sell than a well established junior league like the Q.

I dunno. For some reason there seems to be a weird awkward relationship with the Q in T-R.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by jonny24

And yes, federal dollars specifically should absolutely not be spent on a baseball stadium before it is spent on a Halifax stadium. As laid out above, the feds have actually been very consistent on not spending any money on stadiums, the only way I could see them turning around on that is to boost the economy, and in that sense Halifax makes way more sense than Toronto.

As far as I'm concerned, federal dollars shouldn't be spent on stadiums anywhere. Even if we're talking about Canada's joint World Cup bid, which is really the only situation you could justify spending at a federal level.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I even had typed out a few lines addressing this and decided not to. Yes I know most likely it would be provincial or city money, and therefore not really in any way linked. I meant more from an overall, if the universe was fair, if the GD BLue Jays get handed a stadium, it only seems fair that a group that actually needs some assistance (or at least less assistance than the megamonopoly owned big league team) gets help on a stadium too.

And yes, federal dollars specifically should absolutely not be spent on a baseball stadium before it is spent on a Halifax stadium. As laid out above, the feds have actually been very consistent on not spending any money on stadiums, the only way I could see them turning around on that is to boost the economy, and in that sense Halifax makes way more sense than Toronto.

To be honest we're at the 'We think this is a ploy by Rogers' stage of stadium development - no plans, no renders, no ideal location. It seems much too early to be moaning about what the feds are or aren't doing. As of this stage there's nothing to make anyone think the feds will be giving money to a new Jays stadium.

Originally Posted by suburbanite

As far as I'm concerned, federal dollars shouldn't be spent on stadiums anywhere. Even if we're talking about Canada's joint World Cup bid, which is really the only situation you could justify spending at a federal level.

I'm fine with federal dollars for an Olympics.

Originally Posted by esquire

Interesting. So is this an effect of Shawinigan having a lock on that region as far as the QMJHL goes?

Yes. As one of the Q teams from the old days there's a strong effort to try and preserve the team.

Originally Posted by esquire

It seems to me that the ECHL would be a tougher sell than a well established junior league like the Q.

It is. The Q is the highest level of hockey based solely in Quebec (I mean, it's technically the LNAH, but meh) so there's a lot of effort into supporting it and making it into a big deal. The Q is obviously seen as more domestic than the ECHL.