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  #361  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 3:56 PM
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...if they're going to insist on building a second downtown, they should at least do it on a grid with the buildings against the street.
I think that is why they have attempted to create the Sandy City Center area around city hall. There is no way they could create anything resembling an urban, pedestrian, walkable environment along state street, way to wide and busy. However by starting to create some sort of grid in the city center they can attempt to create a downtown. As I attempt to figure out how to transform a suburb into an urban place it really isn't an easy task. I think the creation of the city center area is the best way to start. Unfortunately they didn't embrace historic Sandy as the heart of the city, I think had they focused on that area it would have been slightly easier to build an expanding downtown on the existing grid but they didn't, thus creating a difficult job for themselves.

I think many of us on here seem to be simply anti anything in Sandy. I mean lets be honest with ourselves, as far a creating another job center with highrise buildings the Proscenium project makes substantially more sense than the Gehry Lehi project. Sandy has already invested in the infastructure in that area, street, utilities and a transportation grid, no additional road infastructure would be neccesary to build proscenium, and there is already an office, retail and residential presence within a block or two. Gehry on the other hand is pretty much an empty field, and there is nothing walkable surrounding the site.

So the difference is; Creating a mixed use development in an already semi mixed use area vs creating a mixed use development on an empty piece of land. Don't inturpret this as me supporting Proscenium as it is currently proposed because I do think it will have an effect on downtown, but I would support a scaled down version as I have previously talked about.

Go ahead bring on the "Future Mayor you're and idiot" comments I'm ready.
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  #362  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 4:07 PM
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Glad to have you on board aspiringArchitect. Always good to have your input and perspective on things. I actually follow most of the Chicago threads. There are a lot of them. I love the architecture there and the new buildings going up are amazing.
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  #363  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 4:57 PM
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I understand what you're saying Future Mayor. I think I would hold less of a grudge against Sandy if they approached things with a spirit of cooperation with Salt Lake rather than the ultra-competitive, "screw you" mentality. Maybe I haven't seen all that Sandy is trying to do to be walkable, but whenever I have driven by on the freeway all I see is a spaced out, business park style layout with large parking lots separating the buildings.
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  #364  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 5:27 PM
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Well, I would be happy to offer you guys some opinions on my thoughts.

I can tell this whole Proscremium development is a pretty big issue. The way I take it, most of you would rather have it in SLC because it would develop more of a skyline and would attract more people downtown, rather than just some stupid suburb. Am I correct?

Well, I say put it in Sandy! It is a big enough city and deserves some tall buildings to call it's own. There are several suburbs out here in Chicagoland that aren't nearly the size of Sandy, yet they still have many skyscrapers, and some even have their own skyline.

Many of these cities don't follow a grid system and there is no common system of streets where the buildings are laid out, unlike downtown Chicago.

Some towns that I can think of off the top of my head are:
Evanston - pop, 75,543
Schaumburg - 72,690
Downers Grove - 49,136
Itasca - 8,453

I wish I could show you guys some pictures, but I couldn't find any that were worth posting.
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  #365  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DMTower View Post
I understand what you're saying Future Mayor. I think I would hold less of a grudge against Sandy if they approached things with a spirit of cooperation with Salt Lake rather than the ultra-competitive, "screw you" mentality. Maybe I haven't seen all that Sandy is trying to do to be walkable, but whenever I have driven by on the freeway all I see is a spaced out, business park style layout with large parking lots separating the buildings.

Perhaps now that the 'mother of all screw you mayors' is gone from SLC, Sandy, along with other cities in the metro will become more cooperative. We're already seeing a much improved atmosphere between Salt Lake and the surrounding metro

.
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  #366  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 5:32 PM
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Well I'm not anti Sandy, you couldn't pay me to live there, but I don't think its a bad thing the way they're trying to develop. My only problem with Sandy is when it costs Salt Lake. I've said before that its beneficial to ALL surrounding cities when Salt Lake's central core is sufficiently strong first. Sandy can have Poscenium, but Soccer, Aquariums, and Broadway theaters should be concentrated downtown. Really I think Sandy's "other downtown" is in a pretty good location with freeway access, TRAX, and a future Frontrunner station. Salt Lake can anchor the North end of the valley and Sandy the South. I'm not so sure that raising a "downtown" would work in the historic Sandy area though- like it or not Sandy is a suburb and the historic section of town is a little remote from the freeway- life line of the burbs. At this point it might make more sense to develop more of a street grid in and around the Sandy city hall area.
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  #367  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by aspiringArchitect View Post
Well, I would be happy to offer you guys some opinions on my thoughts.

I can tell this whole Proscremium development is a pretty big issue. The way I take it, most of you would rather have it in SLC because it would develop more of a skyline and would attract more people downtown, rather than just some stupid suburb. Am I correct?

Well, I say put it in Sandy! It is a big enough city and deserves some tall buildings to call it's own. There are several suburbs out here in Chicagoland that aren't nearly the size of Sandy, yet they still have many skyscrapers, and some even have their own skyline.

Many of these cities don't follow a grid system and there is no common system of streets where the buildings are laid out, unlike downtown Chicago.

Some towns that I can think of off the top of my head are:
Evanston - pop, 75,543
Schaumburg - 72,690
Downers Grove - 49,136
Itasca - 8,453

I wish I could show you guys some pictures, but I couldn't find any that were worth posting.
I've been to all of those towns and I don't recall seeing a single tall building in any of those Chicago suburbs, unless you're counting the water towers.

Also, if SLC's downtown core was firmly established, it might make sense to eventually build up other areas of the valley, but the downtown core needs to build up to a critical mass before other areas of the valley do the same. SLC is no Chicago nor L.A. (as was previously referred to).
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  #368  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 6:02 PM
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The real issue here is that this is a democratic society, and each city was formed because they wanted to govern themselves. Just because we don't want something in a city and we all feel that dt needs to be stronger doesn't mean that other cities aren't looking to do the same, Sandy also wants to be stronger economically. Sandy wants to grow, West Jordan wants to grow. Hell Lehi of all places wants the tallest tower in the state Luckily for the Wasatch Front the economy is still strong and is still growing and the majority of new tenants are from out of state, which is a positive for all cities. I've said it several times before and I'm sure I'll say it again. If the demand for Proscenium to have 3 40 story towers is there and the city works with them then it will get built and that is nobody's fault, you can't force companies to want to relocate to downtown, if they want to be downtown they aren't going to sign a lease in Sandy. If the demand isn't there because those companies that want to be in a highrise say they want to be downtown then Proscenium won't get built as proposed.

That is the beauty and the heart ache of our economic system.
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  #369  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 6:59 PM
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Thanks everyone!

It is good to hear that the Gehry project is still a go, but it stinks that they aren't going to build that mall at Traverse. It sounded cool.

I know they mention both the outlet center and the mall on their website, but hey, you guys would know more than me. lol


OK, I guess I should admit that I don't actually live in the Salt Lake area, let alone Utah even. I'm actually from Chicago. However, ever since I took my first trip there to Park City a few years ago, I have become very interested in you're state. It's so beautiful, and Illinois is sooo, well, flat.

I hope to move there someday, and that's why this particular thread interests me.

Sorry, I can't offer much when it comes to new projects and updates and stuff, just maybe my opinion.
Hey welcome! I lived in Schaumburg for a year after moving away from Salt Lake City and before moving here to Scottsdale. I will say it definitely is flat - I kept getting lost without having mountains to give me my sense of direction! I think we all will be looking forward to your outside opinion of the many great projects being built in Salt Lake as it continues to grow into one of America's greatest mid-size cities.

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  #370  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:23 PM
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The real issue here is that this is a democratic society, and each city was formed because they wanted to govern themselves. Just because we don't want something in a city and we all feel that dt needs to be stronger doesn't mean that other cities aren't looking to do the same, Sandy also wants to be stronger economically. Sandy wants to grow, West Jordan wants to grow. Hell Lehi of all places wants the tallest tower in the state Luckily for the Wasatch Front the economy is still strong and is still growing and the majority of new tenants are from out of state, which is a positive for all cities. I've said it several times before and I'm sure I'll say it again. If the demand for Proscenium to have 3 40 story towers is there and the city works with them then it will get built and that is nobody's fault, you can't force companies to want to relocate to downtown, if they want to be downtown they aren't going to sign a lease in Sandy. If the demand isn't there because those companies that want to be in a highrise say they want to be downtown then Proscenium won't get built as proposed.

That is the beauty and the heart ache of our economic system.
But don't they realize they will benefit even more if we all work together to make Salt Lake a serious destination?! The more Salt Lake City becomes a destination, the greater the amount of visitors and conventions we'll see. The more tourists we get, the more money we will have coming into the State of Utah, the more money we have coming into the State, the more money there is to go around. I think it's politics that is getting in the way of regional cooperation. All these politicians want to look good to their constituents. So they focus on short term gains rather than long term gains.
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  #371  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:25 PM
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What's wrong with looking good for their constituents? Isn't that what they were elected to do?
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  #372  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:27 PM
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But don't they realize they will benefit even more if we all work together to make Salt Lake a serious destination?! The more Salt Lake City becomes a destination, the greater the amount of visitors and conventions we'll see, The more tourists we get, the more money we will have coming into the State of Utah, the more money we have coming into the State, the more money there is to go around. I think it's politics that is getting in the way of cooperation. All these politicians want to look good to their constituents. So they focus on short term gains rather than long term gains.
It boilds down to economic years and political years and the majority of time the two do not conincide with one another.
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  #373  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:28 PM
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Hey welcome! I lived in Schaumburg for a year after moving away from Salt Lake City and before moving here to Scottsdale. I will say it definitely is flat - I kept getting lost without having mountains to give me my sense of direction! I think we all will be looking forward to your outside opinion of the many great projects being built in Salt Lake as it continues to grow into one of America's greatest mid-size cities.


Correction UTAZLoVer, " As it continues to grow from one of America's greatest mid-size cities, into one of America's greatest large cities.
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  #374  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:32 PM
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What's wrong with looking good for their constituents? Isn't that what they were elected to do?
Nothing is wrong with looking good, however, if it comes at the expense of the community, I see that as unethical. These politicians can support our capital city and still look good to their constituents, but it requires an explanation. Although the numbers might look good with short term gains, they will look even better in the long run if we focus on the long term gains.
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  #375  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:45 PM
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This article is well worth the read. There's a lot more that is going in to the Sandy/SouthTowne buildup than just ego. In much the same way that theatre's were forced to quickly convert to stadium, or malls to reinvent themselves, so too are business cores having to make dramatic shifts in order to remain competitive.


Suburban office parks get urban injection
By Haya El Nasser, USA TODAY


By Haya El Nasser,

PLANO, Texas —
When information technology giant EDS began moving its world headquarters in the 1980s from Dallas to this then-remote suburb, employees gazed out at thousands of acres of unspoiled Texas prairie. Longhorns and buffaloes grazed nearby. Unpaved roads surrounded the new corporate campus, one of the first in a 2,665-acre office park bearing the grand name Legacy.
Typical of the large corporations that settled in suburban office parks in the past 40 years, EDS and the many other employers who built glitzy headquarters here gave their employees plenty under one roof: cafeterias, health clubs, child care, banking services and more.

But that's no longer enough. Many of today's young professionals, the creative engines of the knowledge economy, don't want to feel stuck in a glass box. They prefer 24-hour, urban neighborhoods where they can work, walk, shop, dine and live.

As the competition for these high-skilled workers heats up, suburban office parks and corporate campuses are rethinking their sterile designs and adding shops, apartments and restaurants to create a slice of city life in suburbia.

They're realizing that typical company perks pale in comparison with the vibrant environment that employers in cities such as San Francisco, Boston, Chicago and New York can offer.

EDS' campus, for example, is beautiful but did not scream "cool" until 1999, when the Legacy Town Center opened in the office park about 20 miles from downtown Dallas.

Today, pedestrian-friendly streets, upscale boutiques, art galleries, restaurants, theaters, coffee shops, a town square, hotel and 640 apartments are within a five-minute walk from EDS' front gate. They're within a mile of other large employers such as J.C. Penney, Frito-Lay, Dr Pepper/7 UP, ComCast, AT&T Wireless, PepsiCo's information technology division and the Texas Regional Heart Center.

Sixty-five three-story townhouses selling for $200,000-$250,000 and 220 apartments renting from $700-$1,500 a month are under construction in the town center.

Workers' morale is "a huge issue" for employers, says Stephen Scott, manager of EDS Real Estate Asset, Legacy's developer. "The challenge of the suburbs is that they're dull. This is the anti-dull."

With almost 40,000 people working at Legacy, the business park is the size of a small city and the Legacy Town Center its downtown. Starbucks is here, but much of the trendy retail is local or regional: Restaurants such as Mi Cocina, Bishop Park Bistro and Jasper's; the Cru Wine Bar; Joni's Boutique and Culinary Connection. And Robb & Stucky Furniture and Design Studio, a favorite of interior decorators, has a 115,000-square-foot showroom.

EDS, the global information technology services company that Ross Perot founded and once ran, is across the street. Its front gate is visible from Bishop Square, where people jog around a lake, walk their dogs or sit on park benches.

Steve Zaiser, a financial analyst for EDS, jumped at the chance to move into a Legacy apartment two years ago. He can get up at 8 and be at work by 8:30. He can walk the quarter mile to his office.

"I wanted to be close to work but it was pretty neat to be close to all the shops and the dry cleaner," says Zaiser, 29. "And there's a place with great margaritas within a short distance."

'Urban' in suburban

The idea that suburban office parks and corporate campuses can be more than just places where people work is starting to take hold in many parts of the USA. The trend is fueled by an economy that relies on skilled and creative professionals — many of them young, single people who don't want to feel like they're in a corporate Guantanamo Bay.

They want to be free to roam and mingle with people of all walks of life, not just their colleagues. Some want to live close to work or at least work near restaurants, coffee shops and bookstores. They're health-conscious (they like to walk), environmentally aware (they want short commutes, services nearby and even mass transit) and fond of entertainment (they want bars, restaurants and theaters). In short, they want an urban lifestyle even though most jobs are in the suburbs.

Keeping up with this trend is a tall order for suburban employers. Their gleaming headquarters often tower over freeway exit ramps and are surrounded by a gray sea of parking lots. But the pressure to recruit and retain workers and get the most out of massive chunks of suburban real estate is prompting developers to respond:

• In Rockville, Md., a thriving suburb of Washington, D.C., JBG Companies are demolishing 30-year-old office buildings in a 20-acre office park and proposing an extreme makeover.

The developers have hired renowned Miami planner and architect Andres Duany to design a "live-work" center with loft apartments, stores, office buildings and easy access to mass transit. Duany is the founder of New Urbanism, a movement that applies urban design to suburban developments by creating communities that encourage walking and combine homes, shops and offices.

Today's young professionals "wouldn't be caught dead in an office park," Duany says. "What it's about is the lifestyle, not the look of the building. A glass box is totally uncool now."

• In San Jose, a 332-acre IBM corporate campus built in the 1950s is now owned by Hitachi Global Storage Technologies. The company wants to turn the valuable land around its headquarters into a "transit village" — housing, offices and shops near light-rail stations and a train line to San Francisco.

"Especially in Silicon Valley, employers look at two things: recruitment and retention," says Ken Kay, a San Francisco architect and urban planner who is converting the campus. "They don't want to force people to eat in an isolated cafeteria. ... And they're having a hard time recruiting people because there's no housing." The plan calls for 20% of the 3,000-plus apartments, condos, town homes and lofts to be affordable by San Jose standards.

• In Atlanta, Post Properties Inc. bought land along the Chattahoochee River that was part of another IBM campus and built Riverside, a development mixing offices and retail with 200 apartments above the shops. Another 330 apartments, a few high-end townhouses and several offices fill out the 40-acre development.

Moving beyond sprawl

As more people embrace alternatives to suburban sprawl, aging office parks are an untapped gold mine. They allow developers to create an urban environment, from streets and stores to offices and homes.

Just as cities have done for centuries, people who live or work in these communities don't have to get in their cars to get from one building to another. Urban street layouts encourage strolling. People can live above stores. All of which appeals to communities fed up with traffic congestion.

"There is a concern over quality of life and getting the best and brightest," says Dallas developer Art Lomenick, who helped design the Legacy Town Center. A managing director of Trammell Crow Co., Lomenick is working on similar projects in other Dallas suburbs.

The potential is huge.

"Think of them as land banks for future development," says Peter Katz, author of The New Urbanism who teaches at Virginia Tech in Alexandria, Va. "If it's well located, today's failing office park could become tomorrow's downtown."

Steve Crosby, chairman of the National Association of Industrial and Office Properties, says there's still more interest in old warehouses and factories in cities' industrial districts than suburban office parks. But the group of commercial real estate owners and developers, based in Herndon, Va., began studying office park developments two years ago.

"It's clearly come on to our radar screen," Crosby says.

In the Dallas metropolitan area alone, about half of all office space was built in the early to mid-1980s. Those buildings are becoming obsolete, reaching the end of the typical 20-year commercial real estate cycle, when buildings become run down and their designs outdated. Ceilings may be too low. They may lack high-speed network cables. As a result, occupancy drops and values slip.

Other Sun Belt cities such as Atlanta, Denver and Houston boomed in recent decades and face the same scenario. Older parts of the Northeast and Midwest have a growing inventory of even older office parks.

An added appeal for developers is that the land is large and under one ownership — a combination that's tough to find in suburbs close to cities.

Keeping workers happy

The newfangled "office towns" appeal to people like Texas native Joseph Willrich, 25. After graduating from Texas A&M University, he got a job as a civil engineer in Fort Worth and lived downtown in a refurbished apartment. When his company transferred him to Frisco, a Dallas suburb on the edge of the Legacy office park, he immediately decided to live in the apartments in the town center.

"I wanted to live near where all the activities are, where good restaurants are, nightlife," Willrich says.

His commute is 5 minutes. He walks to the dry cleaner, the convenience store, the coffee shop. And he walks to dine at the string of restaurants in the center.

"That's really the beauty of the town center," he says. "I can work in a suburban type atmosphere, have an office in a bedroom community but achieve that urban feel."

Convenience and time-saving are becoming paramount. Increasingly, workers of all ages say they don't want their jobs to overshadow their family and social lives.

"Work-life balance is an issue of great importance," says Jennifer Schramm, manager of workplace trends and forecasting for the Society for Human Resource Management, an Alexandria, Va., group that represents 180,000 personnel professionals. It's one of the top five concerns for high-tech workers, according to the group's surveys.

Companies are realizing that their workers need more access to the outside to allow them to run errands at lunchtime or to foster civic engagement.

"It's about providing access, not acting as a barrier," Schramm says.

Employers also are concerned about keeping health care costs down. The lack of physical activity that leads to obesity and other health problems now is being tied to Americans' dependence on the automobile and the lack of walkable suburban communities.

"Employers are thinking about ways to encourage everyday activities to improve people's health," Schramm says. "We spend so much time at work. If we can change the way we work and the environment we work in, then we will be able to change the way we live."

Zaiser, the EDS employee who lives in the Legacy Town Center, gets a kick out of hearing his car-dependent colleagues gripe about their long commutes. "They're all jealous."
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  #376  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:53 PM
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Why don't these companies just move their offices back into the city!
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  #377  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 8:59 PM
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The real issue here is that this is a democratic society, and each city was formed because they wanted to govern themselves. Just because we don't want something in a city and we all feel that dt needs to be stronger doesn't mean that other cities aren't looking to do the same, Sandy also wants to be stronger economically. Sandy wants to grow, West Jordan wants to grow. Hell Lehi of all places wants the tallest tower in the state Luckily for the Wasatch Front the economy is still strong and is still growing and the majority of new tenants are from out of state, which is a positive for all cities. I've said it several times before and I'm sure I'll say it again. If the demand for Proscenium to have 3 40 story towers is there and the city works with them then it will get built and that is nobody's fault, you can't force companies to want to relocate to downtown, if they want to be downtown they aren't going to sign a lease in Sandy. If the demand isn't there because those companies that want to be in a highrise say they want to be downtown then Proscenium won't get built as proposed.

That is the beauty and the heart ache of our economic system.
That is ONE reason (but not the only one) why I think Salt Lake City and the entire Salt Lake County should merge into one big city. We'd have much better regional planning and less duplication of efforts. Although, Salt Lake City would probably end up electing it's first Republican mayor since 1971 if the city included the entire county.
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  #378  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 10:09 PM
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The downfall of a democratic system is that idiots get a vote too...what can you do though? It has been proven though, that the best solution to a problem is doing what's best for yourself AND the whole, because in the long run it will benefit you more... all Sandy does though, is what's best for themselves at the expense of the whole.
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  #379  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
That is ONE reason (but not the only one) why I think Salt Lake City and the entire Salt Lake County should merge into one big city. We'd have much better regional planning and less duplication of efforts. Although, Salt Lake City would probably end up electing it's first Republican mayor since 1971 if the city included the entire county.
I would like to at least see Salt Lake City incorporate So. Salt Lake, Millcreek and out west up to and including Magna.
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  #380  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2008, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
That is ONE reason (but not the only one) why I think Salt Lake City and the entire Salt Lake County should merge into one big city. We'd have much better regional planning and less duplication of efforts. Although, Salt Lake City would probably end up electing it's first Republican mayor since 1971 if the city included the entire county.
Are there any other major US cities of a size comparable to Salt Lake that are as small as SLC is compared to the metro population? It seems that if Salt Lake County wasn't so fragmented into so many small (and large) suburbs, there could be a better regional plan. It's already been pointed out, but each city is looking out for its own best interest, and there is no regional planning authority to direct growth in the best interest of the region as a whole.

Basically, I'm just wondering if there are other US cities in the same boat as SLC and how they've dealt with regional planning issues.

I don't really know that much about planning in Portland, OR; but as well as the growth boundry, don't they also have some empowered regional planning authority that directs regional growth issues?
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