Why is lumber businesses different in the Canada than the US?

[nec209]

I read some where that the fire safety code is different in Canada than the US. That Canada only allows one and two story buildings out of wood frame unlike the US that allows wood frame buildings from 1 to 6 stories.

That buildings in the US 7 stories and above must be all concrete and have two or more concrete fire exist plus a firewall and this cost way more money and that is why you see lot more 2 to 6 story apartments in the US because it is cheaper and legal.

Where has in Canada apartments built after 1950 have to be all concrete and have concrete fire exist plus firewall so it cheaper to built mid and high rise apartments than low rise apartments. Has Canada has ban those wood frame apartments.

That why you see lot more low rise apartments in the US that you just don’t see in Canada. It is cheaper and it is legal to built that where has in Canada it is not legal unless they use concrete and have concrete fire exist plus firewal and this coast money so it cheaper to build a high rise apartment.

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by nec209

I read some where that the fire safety code is different in Canada than the US. That Canada only allows one and two story buildings out of wood frame unlike the US that allows wood frame buildings from 1 to 6 stories.

That buildings in the US 7 stories and above must be all concrete and have two or more concrete fire exist plus a firewall and this cost way more money and that is why you see lot more 2 to 6 story apartments in the US because it is cheaper and legal.

Where has in Canada apartments built after 1950 have to be all concrete and have concrete fire exist plus firewall so it cheaper to built mid and high rise apartments than low rise apartments. Has Canada has ban those wood frame apartments.

That why you see lot more low rise apartments in the US that you just don’t see in Canada. It is cheaper and it is legal to built that where has in Canada it is not legal unless they use concrete and have concrete fire exist plus firewal and this coast money so it cheaper to build a high rise apartment.

*****

While Canada does have a National Building Code, its Provincial Building Codes that dictate what is/is not permissible for most construction.

While they mostly reference the federal code (or duplicate it), there are indeed 10 distinct provincial building codes and each does have its differences.

In the case of Ontario, the Building Code currently permits Mass Timber buildings up to 18 storeys high, though this is a relatively recent change. (April of this year)

The previous limit was 12 storeys.

An academic (non-residential building) of 10 storeys is just finishing up, called Limberlost place on the Toronto waterfront, this a thread for that project at Urbantoronto

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...hitects.28434/

There is a 31-storey proposal for Cross-Laminated Timber in Toronto that is residential.

Not sure how that will play w/the recent code changes, that thread at UT can be found here:

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...n.30937/page-5

***

Old-school wood-frame buildings were more height restricted in the past and were only allowed to go to six storeys in 2014.

Ontario's permissions for stick-frame are based primarily on fire-rating, the rating requirement increases at the 4th storey to one hour. For three storeys its 45M, where as there is no minimum for 2 storeys or less.

***

The U.S. now permits Mass Timber buildings at up to 18s as well

[nec209]

In the case of Ontario, the Building Code currently permits Mass Timber buildings up to 18 storeys high, though this is a relatively recent change. (April of this year)

The previous limit was 12 storeys.

Most of the high rise apartment buildings in Canada got built in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Now the condo boom in 2000s and 2010s

I believe the 40s and 50s had more mid rise apartments buildings.

[mhays]

Some parts of the US allow eight-story woodframe buildings (six wood over two concrete). They're common in Seattle. Actually they're newly common, since the six floors and common 85' zones are both fairly new.

In terms of fire safety, non-highrise code allows woodframe up to 75' for the floor of the top level, meaning the actual floor. That results in buildings around 85'.

There's also the seismic issue, so local code councils had to get comfortable with advances in wood construction.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by mhays

Some parts of the US allow eight-story woodframe buildings (six wood over two concrete). They're common in Seattle. Actually they're newly common, since the six floors and common 85' zones are both fairly new.

In terms of fire safety, non-highrise code allows woodframe up to 75' for the floor of the top level, meaning the actual floor. That results in buildings around 85'.

There's also the seismic issue, so local code councils had to get comfortable with advances in wood construction.

And that probably why you don’t see high rise buildings in the US like you do in Canada. It just cheaper to build wood frame than going all concrete along with fire stair case.

[mhays]

There are a bunch of reasons in addition to the woodframe thing. Here are more (I'm not an expert in the details of each):

1. Building codes are easier in Canada.

2. The US only allows condo developers to hold $10,000 in earnest money without paying interest.

3. US cities often don't allow highrises except in very limited areas.

4. Canadian cities have a lot of highrise zoning, but relatively little midrise zoning.

5. When transit isn't as good, people can be less into density and more into easy driving (a spiraling factor).

6. The woodframe thing...

[nec209]

Originally Posted by mhays

There are a bunch of reasons in addition to the woodframe thing. Here are more (I'm not an expert in the details of each):

1. Building codes are easier in Canada.

2. The US only allows condo developers to hold $10,000 in earnest money without paying interest.

3. US cities often don't allow highrises except in very limited areas.

4. Canadian cities have a lot of highrise zoning, but relatively little midrise zoning.

5. When transit isn't as good, people can be less into density and more into easy driving (a spiraling factor).

6. The woodframe thing...

There must be a good reason for all the new 5-over-1s in the US versus the highrises in Canada?

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by nec209

I read some where that the fire safety code is different in Canada than the US. That Canada only allows one and two story buildings out of wood frame unlike the US that allows wood frame buildings from 1 to 6 stories.

That buildings in the US 7 stories and above must be all concrete and have two or more concrete fire exist plus a firewall and this cost way more money and that is why you see lot more 2 to 6 story apartments in the US because it is cheaper and legal.

Where has in Canada apartments built after 1950 have to be all concrete and have concrete fire exist plus firewall so it cheaper to built mid and high rise apartments than low rise apartments. Has Canada has ban those wood frame apartments.

That why you see lot more low rise apartments in the US that you just don’t see in Canada. It is cheaper and it is legal to built that where has in Canada it is not legal unless they use concrete and have concrete fire exist plus firewal and this coast money so it cheaper to build a high rise apartment.

There aren't "US building codes". Building codes in the US are very specific to individual cities. Here in South Florida there is no wood-frame construction at all post-Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Honestly there shouldn't be anywhere in the coastal South East US. All buildings are concrete which like canada tends to lead to many large buildings and very few midrises and single family homes that are very costly to bulid.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by dave8721

There aren't "US building codes". Building codes in the US are very specific to individual cities. Here in South Florida there is no wood-frame construction at all post-Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Honestly there shouldn't be anywhere in the coastal South East US. All buildings are concrete which like canada tends to lead to many large buildings and very few midrises and single family homes that are very costly to bulid.

That thing is with the exception of Florida and New York I don’t see concrete apartments. It looks like all cheap wood frame and very much so the ones in the suburbs.

I believe main reason for high rise apartments and condos in Florida going on now is because of the everglades limiting sprawl and the Hurricanes.

[Innsertnamehere]

is the question more so why Canada does so many high-rise, concrete form apartments while the US sees "5 over 1s" dominate with large-floorplate, midrise apartment blocks?

There is a whole bunch of answers to that question, really.

1. US code requirements on midrise wood structures are less stringent. US code requirements in general are a lot less stringent than in Canada (generally - obviously it varies significantly across the US), at least anecdotally from what I have seen professionally and even on a personal basis just spending time in houses in both countries. Both countries use the same "parts bin" but have surprisingly different rules on how those parts are used.

2. Canada has spent 70 years perfecting the art of the repeating fly-form concrete highrise making it very cost competitive with wood. A lot of developers investigate doing wood-form midrise but often just do concrete as it's simply cheaper here. The construction industry knows how to do concrete and how to do it in a cost-effective manner - they don't know how to do wood-form.

3. Canada has much higher proportion of the housing market in apartments, meaning it needs far more units

4. Canada has much, much more restrictive zoning. The majority of homebuilding happens in areas with regulations rivaling the worst areas of the US on regulatory burden. Meaning that to pay to get your project through approvals you need a big project to spread those costs around

5. Did I mention Canada has more restrictive zoning? The US-style 5-over-1 needs large parcels of land to work well and Canada simply doesn't have large supplies of that kind of development land. What land we do have is expensive to entitle and in limited supply so developers do high-density.

Zoning and industry inertia are probably the biggest reasons.

Building codes are also a reason - 5-over-1s in Canada are hard to do from my understanding because Canada has much more stringent regulations on fire-separations (need to be heavier duty and be placed more frequently) which make very-large floorplate wood apartments cost prohibitive to the point where it's just cheaper to do a 20-30 storey concrete fly-form building than a 6-storey wood midrise.

That said, wood-form apartments are becoming more common in Canada again. They just don't dominate the industry like they do in the US. Places like Squamish are doing decent amounts of wood-form apartments, and they are becoming popular in more mid-density Surburban areas in Ontario too.

[mhays]

One disagreement on that...woodframes can work very well on small sites, assuming they have little or no parking. Back to Seattle, quite a few 6-8-story buildings happen on 1/6 of an acre and sometimes much smaller than that.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by mhays

There are a bunch of reasons in addition to the woodframe thing. Here are more (I'm not an expert in the details of each):

1. Building codes are easier in Canada.

2. The US only allows condo developers to hold $10,000 in earnest money without paying interest.

3. US cities often don't allow highrises except in very limited areas.

4. Canadian cities have a lot of highrise zoning, but relatively little midrise zoning.

5. When transit isn't as good, people can be less into density and more into easy driving (a spiraling factor).

6. The woodframe thing...

My understanding reading this post and else where that wood frame apartments is something new being allowed by the government in Canada in BC and Ontario. So back in the 50s to mid 80s I’m not sure if the government allowed wood frame apartments in Canada and if that is the reason you don’t see 2 to 6 story apartments like you do in so many US cities and very much so the suburbs in the US.

[nec209]

Originally Posted by mhays

One disagreement on that...woodframes can work very well on small sites, assuming they have little or no parking. Back to Seattle, quite a few 6-8-story buildings happen on 1/6 of an acre and sometimes much smaller than that.

Other questions I have is because the US is more car centric I wonder if they opt for more low rise apartments because you have to have parking spot. Where has high rise apartments like this in Toronto https://media.blogto.com/articles/20...630&quality=70

May not have parking for everyone so city appose that in the US because not having enough parking spot. So people in apartment in the US normally drive where has in Canada people in the apartment normally take city bus.

[nec209]

2. Canada has spent 70 years perfecting the art of the repeating fly-form concrete highrise making it very cost competitive with wood. A lot of developers investigate doing wood-form midrise but often just do concrete as it's simply cheaper here. The construction industry knows how to do concrete and how to do it in a cost-effective manner - they don't know how to do wood-form.

That is interesting so concrete is cheaper in Canada than wood frame in Canada? Well because in the US wood frame is cheaper so they opt for more wood frame than concrete in the US.

3. Canada has much higher proportion of the housing market in apartments, meaning it needs far more units

That other interesting thing so more people in Canada are in apartments than the US?

[nec209]

4. Canada has much, much more restrictive zoning. The majority of homebuilding happens in areas with regulations rivaling the worst areas of the US on regulatory burden. Meaning that to pay to get your project through approvals you need a big project to spread those costs around

I think Canada seem to be stricter than the US on city sprawl. But lot of US cities have hight restrictions that Canada just does not seem to have.

Also US cities have this is where high density arae is, this is mid rise density area and this is low rise density anrae and Canada just does not seem to have that kind of zoning that is very popular in the US.

5. Did I mention Canada has more restrictive zoning? The US-style 5-over-1 needs large parcels of land to work well and Canada simply doesn't have large supplies of that kind of development land. What land we do have is expensive to entitle and in limited supply so developers do high-density.

It funny but Los Angeles has lot of new 5-over-1 being built so don’t know how it can work for them but not in Canada.

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by nec209

....
That other interesting thing so more people in Canada are in apartments than the US?

Best I can discern about 18% of Americans live in apartments within apartment buildings (as oppose to basement units or renting a house).

In Canada the number would be in/around 28%.

But that's deceptive in both countries, as the concentration of renters in the biggest, most expensive cities is much higher, while its much lower in rural areas, and smaller cities/towns.

***

Another way to look at the above

U.S. : Percentage of Dwelling Units are single-family-homes - 67%

Canada: " - 53%

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Best I can discern about 18% of Americans live in apartments within apartment buildings (as oppose to basement units or renting a house).

In Canada the number would be in/around 28%.

But that's deceptive in both countries, as the concentration of renters in the biggest, most expensive cities is much higher, while its much lower in rural areas, and smaller cities/towns.

***

Another way to look at the above

U.S. : Percentage of Dwelling Units are single-family-homes - 67%

Canada: " - 53%

Canada's market has shifted a lot - historically we were closer to the US on housing production. Single-detached dwellings represented just 19% of housing starts in Canada in 2023. The new construction market, especially in major cities like Toronto and Vancouver, is overwhelmingly dominated by high-density housing starts.

[nec209]

Why is city planning schools/urban planning schools different in Canada than the US?

I hear from people that the city planning schools/urban planning schools in Canada copied more European planning. That could be the reason. Well not sure why they copied them.

One major difference I notice is around density zoning in the US. Yes of one key factor in the US have density zoning areas. This is high density zoning area, this is medium density zoning area and this low density zoning areas.

In the US high rise buildings are normally go in high density zoning area or restricted to the down town areas. The medium rise buildings go in medium rise zoning area and the low rise buildings go in the low density zoning area. And a more taping off of the skyline where you cam see the skyline go from high to medium and than to low as the skyline is taping off.

Well Canada does don’t seem to have that kind of zoning.

Also in American cities in the suburbs have more restrictions on hight limits zoning restrictions than the more urban areas or older down town areas where has Canada does not seem to have that. So it is not unusual to see high rise condo plot down in a low density suburb or along fringe of the city close to country in Canada.

I wonder what happen to the planning schools/urban planning schools that took different path in Canada?

From being in the US and taking a drive in the suburbs in Canada in low density area and seeing high rise apartments or high rise condos seem odd.

But Canada does not seem to have that kind of zoning that more typical in the American cities.

On side note doing more reading I believe in the past Canada fire safety code did allow for wood frame apartments up to the 4 or 5 floor now as to why did not become popular in Canada at the time like the US I’m not sure.

But the zoning laws seem different in Canada.

[Gantz]

I saw a lot of lowrise apartments in Vancouver being built with wood frame, so Canada definitely allows it.
The main difference between countries I believe is zoning, not code. US is simply a lot more restrictive when it comes to highrises. I personally think Canada does it better, but maybe it is a bias of a visitor vs a resident.
Blaming everything on code is a NIMBY cope and excuse, that I have even seen some urbanist youtube channels fall for. Obviously you wouldn't want to compromise safety as oppose to "big buildings are casting shadow on my tomato patch".

[nec209]

Originally Posted by Gantz

I saw a lot of lowrise apartments in Vancouver being built with wood frame, so Canada definitely allows it.
The main difference between countries I believe is zoning, not code. US is simply a lot more restrictive when it comes to highrises. I personally think Canada does it better, but maybe it is a bias of a visitor vs a resident.
Blaming everything on code is a NIMBY cope and excuse. Obviously you wouldn't want to compromise safety as oppose to "big buildings are casting shadow on my tomato patch".

I believe in the past in Ontario wood frame apartments up to the 4 or 5 floor stories and than around the year 2016 allowing them to go up higher.

In BC they have lot more older retired populations so that may explain why they have more low rise apartments. Some one age 70 and up.

Canadian cities look lot more cookie cutter than the US cities because of lack of this is very high zoning area, this high zoning area, this is medium zoning area, this low zoning area.