City Hall | 34m | 8 fl | Complete

[emge]

Originally Posted by Dundasguy

I can't believe how much time and energy is being wasted on this. I am really starting to see why this city is going nowhere in a hurry.

Would building cladding be such an issue anywhere else? The building is too small and obsolete, they could clad it in 24K gold or dog shit and it won't change this fact. It's become impossible to get things done in the core. Every project now gets mired in controversy and endless debates from interest groups, politicians and the media.

I can see why the business community has given up on downtown and moved on to the big box burbs instead. It's become too much brain damage to try anything downtown.

I could start to list the logical fallacies in this post, but it would take too much time.

This certainly isn't a case of being "impossible to get things done in the core," or your claim the "big box burbs" are the place to be because of timelines. That assertion alone is a very simple breakdown of a complex situation. Anyways, the case of City Hall may have some parallels to businesses, but its a very unique situation and certainly not a clearcut parallel to any of them.

If you're looking for a new City Hall, that ship has sailed. Saying that nothing matters now is a bit far-fetched, isn't it?

It is what it is: working with what we have: preserving the style of the building, preserving its heritage features including the cladding.

The core problem with the cladding is that cost should not be the only determining factor. It's not about just covering it in "dog *** or 24k gold" without it mattering. It matters.

Right now the choice that the city has made turns this government-owned building in the center of our city a beacon to cost-effectiveness alone. Above aesthetics, above history, above heritage, above what it communicates to the entire city about the worth of downtown and the worth of investing the city's money in the core.

And that is a problem, because the rest of the story matters as well as costs. Limestone would have considered all sides... concrete considers one.

It's now a case of professionals backing out because of the poor choice that has been made, and concerned citizens attempting to bring another solution to the situation and minimize the damage that's been done by these decisions, and find a way to move a better solution forward.

Is this situation entirely unique? Of course not. But this building represents, in one way or another, the entire city and every citizen in it. Right now the plan is for that to be a grey concrete box: testament to penny-pinching, pound-foolishness, and an inherent devaluing of the downtown. And that is not what I want in the center of my city, my Hamilton.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by highwater

I was being facetious.

Given your many comments, I have no doubt that you get it. My (possibly over-pedantic) response was more for the benefit of people who may not recognize the distinction between lobbying and citizenship.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by emge

cost should not be the only determining factor

I think it may not be so much that cost shouldn't be the only determining factor, but rather that the act of calculating cost effectiveness implies decisions on:

1. How broadly to define return on investment; and
2. How long the term of reference should be.

As an example of #1, should we include a company's decision not to invest in Hamilton because we don't value and protect our heritage properties as a cost of using concrete cladding?

As an example of #2, should we include the cost of scrubbing the unsightly stains off the concrete cladding when it starts to look like crap after ten years (or, alternately, the cost of not doing this)?

By a very narrow, short-term definition of cost and benefit, concrete makes more sense. If we take the wider and longer view - as the stewards of a city's long-term economic development ought to do - concrete is revealed as a false economy.

[emge]

Definitely -- I just didn't want to draw out an already long post knowing most already realized that part of it. Investing just for aesthetics and for heritage's sake without expecting any return from that would also be a bit one-sided.

[Dundasguy]

Originally Posted by flar

I'll tell you why this city is going nowhere fast: it's because of parochial small minded attitudes. You represent the majority opinion in this city.

They care a great deal about the cladding on buildings up in Toronto. Their business community is doing fine. A real businessperson would see value in heritage assets.

What is a "real" business person? Harry Stinson?

Almost 60% of the downtown core of Toronto has been demolished rebuilt in the last 50 or so years. First Canadian place has had tiles falling off the exteror for the past 8 years but it's still a landmark. I'm sorry but Bay, King, and Yonge don't look like they did in 1920.

With regards to attitudes, it may not be popular with anyone here, and I can't say I like the concrete either but that's democracy.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by Dundasguy

With regards to attitudes, it may not be popular with anyone here, and I can't say I like the concrete either but that's democracy.

Ah. So when you voice your opinion it's 'democracy'. When people you disagree with voice their opinions they're 'special interests' who are holding back the downtown. Gotcha.

[raisethehammer]

I'm sorry, but I gotta jump back in here. This attitude displayed by Dundasguy is everything that is wrong in Hamilton.
We travel the world to marvel at other cities but demand second-rate bullcrap in our own.
It's disgusting.
Sadly, Dundasguy represents the majority of Hamiltonians...otherwise, we wouldn't have such a bunch of friggin idiots on council every term. We get what we vote for.

[Dundasguy]

Originally Posted by highwater

Ah. So when you voice your opinion it's 'democracy'. When people you disagree with voice their opinions they're 'special interests' who are holding back the downtown. Gotcha.

It's not my opinion, it was voted by council which represents the citizens of Hamilton. I'm sure if people demanded they spend the money on Limestone or Marble, the vote would have went another way. It looks bad when you are going to raise property taxes and transit fares and then splurge on the decor of a building.

Council is aware that the cladding is not going to be the last overrun we see in this black hole. By the time this is all through you're going to be lucky to see windows on the building. My guess is the final cost of the reno will be at least 30% over the initial estimate.

I have made my personal opinion known- it's none of the above.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Dundasguy

It's not my opinion, it was voted by council which represents the citizens of Hamilton. I'm sure if people demanded they spend the money on Limestone or Marble, the vote would have went another way. It looks bad when you are going to raise property taxes and transit fares and then splurge on the decor of a building.

Council is aware that the cladding is not going to be the last overrun we see in this black hole. By the time this is all through you're going to be lucky to see windows on the building. My guess is the final cost of the reno will be at least 30% over the initial estimate.

I have made my personal opinion known- it's none of the above.

you obviously didn't see the poll on the mayors website. the 'people' DID demand limestone/marble.

[adam]

According to Scott Duvall's email reply to me, all of counsel's decisions were made because any other ones would have been too expensive. I think he's forgeting that Hamilton City Hall represents a city of well over 500,000... one of the largest cities in Canada and the rest of the country is watching.

[markbarbera]

What those who praise the 'looking to save a buck' attitude are failing to account for is the increase in maintenance costs associated with the concrete slabs. Whatever is 'saved' in the initial renovation will be lost a few years down the road due to increased maintenance costs. I have to give credit to Morelli for trying to make this point during the council meeting. Unfortunately his comments fell on deaf ears.

[SteelTown]

Yea Ferguson suggested to power wash the concrete facade every so often. Yea I'm sure council will be reminded to fund the power wash clean up in 5 years or so, NOT!

[realcity]

Originally Posted by highwater

We need a 'white knight' for a lousy $2.5mil? Is Dreschel determined to make Hamilton a laughingstock? We can find half a billion dollars for the Best Buy Expressway, but we can't find $2.5mil so we can hold our heads up? I'm even more despairing now that I've seen what passes for "thoughtful exchanges" in this town.

"Best Buy Highway" that's awesome.
that would be the best if that term catches on.

[highwater]

Even better if there are royalties involved.

[markk]

I think I saw more fences going up around City Hall this morning on my way to work (close to Bay and Main). Anyone know if the renos are starting?

[LikeHamilton]

This was posted Thursday on the cities emplyee's web site.

City Hall Parking Lot Update
As construction begins at City Hall, please be advised that portions of the lower east side of the City Hall parking lot (near McNab Street) will be closed off commencing Monday, November 17th until the completion of the project. All other parking areas will remain fully functional until further notice.
Please note that only the westerly stairways from the upper deck to the ground level will remain open at this time. As the project progresses, there may be minor adjustments to the parking layout and delays in entering the parking lot. Any further changes or impacts will be shared as they become available

[realcity]

^ what's this and the City didn't find the whiners temp parking spaces for them? wow...

[hmagazine]

There is a rally in support of City Hall planned for this Saturday at 11am in what's left of the forecourt at 71 Main St. W.

Defacing Our City Hall
A Rally for the Protection of Hamilton’s City Hall

Saturday, November 22, 2008 @ 11am
71 Main St. W. - Directly in front of Hamilton City Hall

Hamilton City Hall, an internationally recognized, and designated, example of the International Style of architecture, is in danger of being defaced - forever.

City Council has voted to remove all of the white Cherokee marble from Georgia, and replace it with pre-cast concrete. A compromise to replace the damaged marble with limestone was dismissed as too expensive. As a result, the well-respected heritage architects, E.R.A. who were to work on the renovation project have resigned in protest over the use of concrete. In response to E.R.A.’s resignation, The Spectator quotes Councillor Lloyd Ferguson as saying, “They are heritage architects, they don’t consider costs.”

What is at stake is an important and iconic building that is the seat of our local government. It is not an office building. It is a symbol of our City to its citizens, visitors and investors. Only a few years ago, many of these same councillors voted in favour of designating the building as a heritage structure in order to protect it. Now they are determined to attack one of the designated heritage elements of the building - its marble cladding. Who knows what other alterations they plan for the interior.

In 1960, City Council of the day voted to demolish the old City Hall on James North. In 2008, our current Council has voted to deface our present City Hall. Most Hamiltonians regret allowing the destruction of the old City Hall.

Architect Stanley Roscoe considers it to be his masterwork. We agree with him. We hope that you will join us in protesting the planned defacing of our magnificent City Hall.

Speakers, special guests and words of support will be presented. A walking tour around the perimeter of the building will follow the speakers We encourage all photographers to capture the building’s beauty and architectural details and to post their images on our Flickr page at http://www.flickr.com/groups/899319@N25/

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by realcity

^ what's this and the City didn't find the whiners temp parking spaces for them? wow...

I'm sure they'll close down the entire York Blvd parkade now for council and staff.
heaven forbid they park like everyone else who works downtown. LOL.

[highwater]

If you are upset about the decision to cover City Hall in concrete, please come out to the rally on Saturday. Mayor Fred is exploring alternative sources of funding, and a big turnout on Saturday will lend support to his efforts. There's still hope, but we need lots of support!

I posted a National Post article about Hamilton on another thread, but just wanted to quote a line from it:

"The under-appreciated City Hall is a masterpiece, one of the most beautifully executed modernist buildings in Canada."

If we fail to recognize and protect it, we will live to regret it, just as we now regret the destruction of the old city hall.