HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 3:57 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Double tracked and electrified, yes. Going downtown isn't really necessary. If the Trillium line is upgraded to proper high-frequency service the Bayview transfer doesn't matter anymore. You don't need one-seat rides everywhere.. that was one of the big fallacies of the city's old Transitway-era thinking.-
I live in the part of the city served by the Trillium Line. It is NOT a one seat ride. Almost everybody who would use the Trillium Line has to transfer to use it or use a Park n Ride lot, which amounts to the same thing. If we want the Trillium Line to maximize its success, it needs to go downtown. Bayview is an artificial terminus and a non-destination.

The Trillium Line does not serve local neighbourhoods like express buses so there is no equivalency to 'old Transitway-era thinking'.

What you are talking about is the same as building Montreal's REM but not running it through downtown Montreal. A dumb idea indeed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 4:19 AM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
What you are talking about is the same as building Montreal's REM but not running it through downtown Montreal. A dumb idea indeed.
A double tracked, electrified Trillium Line isn't that much different to Montreal's Blue Line. It doesn't go downtown but instead serves the Université de Montréal.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 7:46 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,480
So where does MOOSE and their plans fit in?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 9:59 AM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
So where does MOOSE and their plans fit in?
It doesn't. The city doesn't want any part of MOOSE.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 2:00 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
A double tracked, electrified Trillium Line isn't that much different to Montreal's Blue Line. It doesn't go downtown but instead serves the Université de Montréal.

There is a difference between Montreal's blue line and also Toronto's Bloor-Danforth Subway compared to the Trillium Line.

In the case of Montreal and Toronto, both lines provide local service. They run through the heart of neighbourhoods. For the most part, the Trillium Line does not. A large portion of the riders in Toronto and Montreal will be able to walk to their local subway station. In other words, only one transfer to reach downtown. In the case of the Trillium Line, most people will either have to transfer from a neighbourhood bus route or drive to a park n ride lot. In that kind of situation, there should be direct service into the city centre as is planned for REM and GO train routes.

The value of REM, which will require a lot of riders to either transfer or drive to a station only exists if the trains go to the city centre. Forcing a transfer at both ends quickly degrades ridership.

REM is much more comparable to the Trillium Line than the Blue Line.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 2:01 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
If the airport spur will not be interlined in the forseeable future, why don't we buy a few standard streetcars for the spur. That is likely all that we will need to meet the demand.
If the airport connector has to be a spur, you almost only need two self-powered cars. One, and a spare.
__________________
___
Enjoy my taxes, Orleans (and Kanata?).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 5:24 PM
Kitchissippi's Avatar
Kitchissippi Kitchissippi is offline
Busy Beaver
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
If the airport connector has to be a spur, you almost only need two self-powered cars. One, and a spare.
or do just do a cable-powered system like the Pearson Airport LINK train. Cheaper to build and run, and quieter. It would actually get a lot of use servicing the airport and the EY Centre.

Last edited by Kitchissippi; Jul 20, 2017 at 5:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 8:31 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
or do just do a cable-powered system like the Pearson Airport LINK train. Cheaper to build and run, and quieter. It would actually get a lot of use servicing the airport and the EY Centre.

This. Why don't they do this? If it's not going to be a legitimate LRT spur, why waste money building it like one? Put in a people mover and call it a day.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 10:04 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
This. Why don't they do this? If it's not going to be a legitimate LRT spur, why waste money building it like one? Put in a people mover and call it a day.
To not compromise future upgrades to the Trillium Line. Also, does this affect the needed design of the South Keys station that shares the same platforms between through trains and airport spur trains?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2017, 10:30 PM
roger1818's Avatar
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 6,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
To not compromise future upgrades to the Trillium Line. Also, does this affect the needed design of the South Keys station that shares the same platforms between through trains and airport spur trains?
Also they will share track into South Keys (the bridge across Hunt Club is single track). I also read that they want to keep the option open to run some special trains from the airport to Bayview.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 12:36 AM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
You compare this to the original $900M project that was going to reach Barrhaven Town Centre and included the Vimy Bridge and double tracking from downtown to Bowesville, you have to wonder. Of course, a good portion of the additional costs are going towards grade separating every road along the route including along the airport spur.
If they were to take the N-S LRT plans and just limit themselves to it with a single unelectrified track, they'd save a fortune. But that would be too easy.

Reading the report is just a head shaker.

Essentially, they want to grade separate just about everything but do it in a way that it can be used for grade separated electrified double track in the future. Sort of. Some of the time. Maybe. Well for the airport link anyway.

So one thing they're going to build is a MUP crossing of Hunt Club parallel to the tracks in full knowledge of planning to move it later. I only point this out because, well, you'll see.

They're going to build a single track rail-over-road structure at Lester. So any railcars being tested at the NRC will be pushed up and over this bridge then the brakes applied on the other side to get them into the NRC... and when they're returned the locos will have to throttle up from a standing start on the other side. Unless we build more tail track for them. But in the future, they might lay an industrial spur for the NRC with a grade crossing of Lester if they build electric LRT. Or they might leave the industrial spur on the bridge and build a new double track crossing for LRT instead. The parallel MUP will get its own bridge over Lester (), and yes, it too will be moved in the future as well... because, you know, they don't know if structures for one or two tracks will be placed to the east of their initial structure in the future.

Down at Leitrim, they're going to build a road-over-rail structure. But when and if the Airport builds its future runway on the Leitrim alignment, well that structure will be dismantled, which would be after about 20 years of service ensuring that the favoured form of transport in Ottawa, cars, never have to stop for a train. The railway will stay where it is once the new runway is built (I guess it won't extend that far) and presumably another structure will be built further south along the line for the realigned Leitrim to once again carry cars over the Trillium Line without delay.

Between Lester and Leitrim, btw, is the Airport's emergency services road crossing of the railway. It, somehow or another, will be left as a controlled at-grade crossing, thus earning it the distinction of being the only non-railway grade crossing of the Trillium Line.

The report doesn't indicate how it will cross Earl Armstrong as that was a recent change. At that point it's still in the old Prescott Sub corridor. Topographically, taking Earl Armstrong over the tracks makes the most sense as the land slopes up somewhat to the east where an embankment would go, but I imagine they'll do whatever assigns the most costs to the rail system at the time of construction - in car-centric Ottawa, it's best to build a rail bridge with extra spans for a future divided roadway than wait until the roadway is widened to build a second grade separation... gotta keep the costs of those future road projects down, after all.

The real money, though, seems to be for the Airport spur. It will naturally fly over the Airport Parkway, with provision for the latter's widening (see above about keeping future road widening costs down). And then it will remain up in the air on an embankment to arrive at the E&Y Centre (Uplands Station) on its north side where an elevated two-track, two-platform station will be built, which will serve as a passing siding. The alignment then remains elevated heading west over Uplands and then swinging south incorporating a half kilometre single track viaduct for the final run over Paul Benoit Driveway into the Airport, where it will be placed, UP-and-SkyTrain-style, between the airport building and its parkade*. So any possibility of extending the line south beneath the runway is gone. It will forever be a terminus.

*The depiction on geoOttawa, however, has the station tucking in to the west of the terminal building at Convair Pvt rather than running between the terminal and its parkade. Since geoOttawa has been updated for the Earl Armstrong extension, this may be the more current plan. Can't tell from geoOttawa at what elevation it would be.

To avoid saving any money on Walkey Station in the interim configuration, the station will be built on the south side of Walkley, east side of the tracks, thus requiring its own stairs and an elevator rather than making use of those found in the northbound Transitway platform if they were to build it on the north side of Walkley, west of the track. The N-S LRT location of that station, btw, was on the north side of Walkley as an island platform station to the east of the existing track with another track to be built further east still. Access would have been at-grade across the tracks to the existing northbound Transitway platform and to Westvalley Pvt to the east. Knowing the City, they'll probably prevent any ability to access the station directly from the adjacent Mariott Inn, thus nullifying any benefit from that location.

Quote:
The end result is going to be a system that is subject to failure because of all the track switching that trains need to accomplish along the entire route and scheduling problems.

One question remains unclear, is the Ellwood diamond going to separated as part of this project?
It's not in the description and the diagrams (which don't resolve on zoom-in) don't suggest it. The old N-S LRT had a roller coaster overpass here, but DMUs can't do that kind of gradient while taking the line under VIA's Beachburg Sub would involve reworking the Southeast Transitway and the Sawmill Creek crossing and/or reworking the Beachburg's crossings of the Airport Parkway and Heron Road.

If they ever want to grade separate the Ellwood Diamond for future LRT, the smartest thing to do would be to convert the Southeast Transitway from that point southwards, allowing the LRT to pass under the Beachburg just to the southwest of the current diamond. That would also save them some unnecessary palaver at Hunt Club - they can leave that MUP bridge wherever they build it by just using the existing Southeast Transitway overpass. The Southeast Transitway itself could be looped back to Heron on the east side, allowing it to become a functional extension of the Baseline BRT. Since they're going to move Confederation Station to the north side of Heron, transfers between the Trillium LRT and the Baseline BRT/Southeast Twy would take place there. The portion of the Trillium Line south of Ellwood to/from the airport can then travel up the Beachburg Sub to Hurdman & Tremblay instead.

Quote:
If the airport spur will not be interlined in the forseeable future, why don't we buy a few standard streetcars for the spur. That is likely all that we will need to meet the demand.
Oh, but you're not thinking like they do! You see, the airport spur won't necessarily be a 'spur' at all times. Sometimes the trains from Riverside South will be the through-running train to Bayview with shuttle service to the airport at South Keys, but at other times the train from the airport will through-run to Bayview with the train to Riverside South being on a shuttle service. So while the plans are not for it to be interlined per se, they will run trains from the airport on the line north of South Keys. Sometimes. Maybe.
__________________
Ottawa's quasi-official motto: "It can't be done"
Ottawa's quasi-official ethos: "We have a process to follow"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 2:12 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,872
Apparently they keep changing the plan. The last I heard is that all Airport trains would terminate at South Keys, otherwise there would be confusion as to when trains would terminate at South Keys and at Bayview.

The plans at Walkley, left me scratching my head. The station is to be adjacent to the condo well south of Walkley and with access to Bank and Walkley by private walkways or roadways. Not exactly convenient for transfers between buses and trains at Walkley station nor for access to either major street.

The grade separation of the Ellwood Diamond was to lower the Trillium Line but when travelling through the location, it quite apparent that it leaves inadequate clearance for the nearby Transitway, and the recently constructed bikeway that was designed to separate it from the Trillium Line.

Everything seems to be designed to be cheap while at the same time blowing a wad for the little that it will deliver.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 1:29 PM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,029
Good Day....

The NRC rail access - the old freight line - is to be retained flat, at grade. Somewhere between Greenboro and SouthKeys it splits from the LRT rails - somewhere. The traffic to NRC is of such a nature as to preclude the elevations changes (grade) investment (distance) or the necessity of a 'heavy' rail bridge. LRT can use a far lighter bridge, and a far steeper grade (5%). The crossings of the roads are permitted under SOR since the loads are escorted (very slowly) on foot by multiple eyeballs to verify clearances and traffic at crossings. This is especially so for the airport emergency road, since it is used only very lightly, and can be similarly accommodated easily. This has been the plan for the freight line all along, through all the iterations.
As for Leitrim, the road bridge is (long term) a temporary structure (and thus cheaper to 'throw away') to account for the Leitrim re-alignment which will come when the airport does expand that runway; .ie. it is 'in the plans'.
As for the airport spur being pure spur (no interlining, nor daily swaps of which is the shuttle 'spur', that is only the latest announcement from Jimmy (who keeps changing plans per the latest complaints) as to operational plan, somewhat as per lrt's friend.
As for the EarlArmstrong, presumably another bridge - I think such was momentarily mentioned in the photo-op.
As for the diamond, I think an analysis of that was one item of what the Fed Infrastructure money last year was for - one of the mentioned items in the vague last of aims in the announcement .....? Nobody knows for sure just what that announcement encompassed in any detail.
And as for cheap !!! sigh.....absolutely ! They are still nickel-and-dimeing this line ever since the original pilot.

and one last observation.... I am not sure, but in riding the line yesterday, and looking around at Bayview, it sure as **** looks like they built a concrete cinder block building right over the old rail RoW, to the west of the new T-Line platform, and left essentially nothing for space for the line to the PoW at all. I could be wrong; I hope I am wrong, BUT .... !!!

EnJoy!

Last edited by PHrenetic; Jul 21, 2017 at 1:34 PM. Reason: Added paragraph
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 1:42 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,872
I hope that we are not going to the great expense to grade separate the Trillium Line and then not build structures to allow for two tracks so it is easy to double track the line later.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 3:00 PM
PHrenetic PHrenetic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I hope that we are not going to the great expense to grade separate the Trillium Line and then not build structures to allow for two tracks so it is easy to double track the line later.
In Our Humble Opinions !!!!!!!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 3:49 PM
TransitZilla TransitZilla is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
To avoid saving any money on Walkey Station in the interim configuration, the station will be built on the south side of Walkley, east side of the tracks, thus requiring its own stairs and an elevator rather than making use of those found in the northbound Transitway platform if they were to build it on the north side of Walkley, west of the track.... Knowing the City, they'll probably prevent any ability to access the station directly from the adjacent Mariott Inn, thus nullifying any benefit from that location.
Regarding the first part of your comment, the Airport Parkway off-ramp and Transitway bus on-ramp are both in between the Transitway station and the O-Train corridor so I don't know how the Transitway station infrastructure could ever be leveraged unless they built a tunnel which is probably more costly.

I don't think any stairs or elevators will be required for the Walkley station at all. There is already a pedestrian pathway that runs from Walkley between the rail corridor and the Mariott and the plan is to extend this further south.

The owner of the Mariott and condo tower also owns the Swiss Chalet and Pizza Hut commercial complexes that front onto Bank. The plan is to build 2 or 3 more additional towers. The station will be located right next to them. The site plan for the next phase of towers (http://app01.ottawa.ca/postingplans/...appId=__9A7WVV) shows a pedestrian connection to the east through the Swiss Chalet site. The city's vision is to install signals at Bank & Notting Hill as part of the Bank St reconstruction to provide access to the Walkley station from the east.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 5:17 PM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Regarding the first part of your comment, the Airport Parkway off-ramp and Transitway bus on-ramp are both in between the Transitway station and the O-Train corridor so I don't know how the Transitway station infrastructure could ever be leveraged unless they built a tunnel which is probably more costly.
The ramps you refer to are on the south side of Walkley Road while the existing Transitway station houses with the stairs and elevators are on the north side. If an O-Train platform were to be placed on the north side of Walkley, on the west side of the track, it could be accessed via a short path from the northbound Transitway platform. By contrast, a platform on the south side of Walkley, regardless of what side of the track it was on, would, as you say, be effectively blocked by the ramps from the other platforms.

Quote:
I don't think any stairs or elevators will be required for the Walkley station at all. There is already a pedestrian pathway that runs from Walkley between the rail corridor and the Mariott and the plan is to extend this further south.
Well I'm taking it from the City's own Trillium Line Functional Design Report:

"A new grade-separated station is also planned on the south side of Walkley Road, adjacent to the existing hotel/condominium development. The station configuration will be similar to Gladstone and Confederation stations, with only one station house and platform built in advance of LRT conversion. It will be a grade-separated station with redundant elevators and a staircase providing access to Walkley Road, local bus routes and the Transitway station houses. Opportunities for pathway connections to the adjacent development and other nearby land uses to the south may be explored during future phases of design. This station will also include a fare-paid zone defined by turnstiles, a weather-protected platform, and sheltered bicycle parking." p.3

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/environmenta...ssment-report/

Quote:
The owner of the Mariott and condo tower also owns the Swiss Chalet and Pizza Hut commercial complexes that front onto Bank. The plan is to build 2 or 3 more additional towers. The station will be located right next to them. The site plan for the next phase of towers (http://app01.ottawa.ca/postingplans/...appId=__9A7WVV) shows a pedestrian connection to the east through the Swiss Chalet site. The city's vision is to install signals at Bank & Notting Hill as part of the Bank St reconstruction to provide access to the Walkley station from the east.
If that is the case, it doesn't appear to be in the documentation of their own Stage 2 website. I'm going off what appears to be the most recent documentation with any actual details as well as what I can discern from geoOttawa.
__________________
Ottawa's quasi-official motto: "It can't be done"
Ottawa's quasi-official ethos: "We have a process to follow"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 5:27 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,872
What bothers me about the Walkley Station plan is that its primarily serving a private development over the nearby public streets. I seem to recall that they could not put it at Walkley because of a slight curve in the tracks. Will there even be a long-term solution to this poorly located station?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2017, 6:39 PM
OTSkyline OTSkyline is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,551
I wonder if they should not build two different lines?

The first line would be the current trillium line running from Bayview and could go to Riverside South via Leitrim or Findley Creek.

The second I would run from the airport to Hurdman station following the southeast transitway. This second line could run adjacent to the first line between Greenboro and Confederation OR take a different route to serve other people, but both lines would essential form an X and cross somewhere (most probably confederation).

That way, you have two different lines connecting to the confederation line at two different spots (Bayview and Hurdman), you don't have to do any other spurs or transfers to South Keys + Bayview coming up from the airport (it could be just 1 transfer at Hurdman) etc...

Not sure how feasible this would be or the costs but... an idea...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2017, 1:13 PM
AndyMEng AndyMEng is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
What bothers me about the Walkley Station plan is that its primarily serving a private development over the nearby public streets. I seem to recall that they could not put it at Walkley because of a slight curve in the tracks. Will there even be a long-term solution to this poorly located station?
I don't follow. How could they locate the station better? So that it's connected physically with no stairs to the Walkley transitway station?

I lived at Walkley and Bank for years, and used to head south on the transitway to Greenboro to catch the train to head north. Now if you're heading north, you can just head down to the platform. (For YEARS I would watch my train pass by Walkley while I was waiting for a 97 for 1/2 hour at 8:00am when they should be going by every 3-5 minutes. Cursing the city for not having a platform at Walkley, and yet Confederation had a station to serve absolutely nobody.)

And if you're gonna say transfers from buses to rail, Walkley isn't the station for that. And if you're gonna say the station should be on the north side, I say whats the difference (Other than the crosswalk on the south side, which may require people waiting for a light)? Good on them for allowing densification in the Southern empty lands where homeless people and/or gypsies loved camping in the summer. They should do the same on the west side: squish the airport parkway on-ramp tight to the parkway and open up that entire wasted space for densification. The NIMBY's would hate it (*gets out popcorn*)

I for one appreciate that the City isn't going to spend another $50 or 100 or 150 million building a secondary bridge under Walkley, AND a secondary bridge under the parkway off-ramp AND a secondary bridge under the transitway off-ramp, only to scoot the train line 50 feet to the west so that the transitway and train lines are side-by-side. And what then? What if I wanted to keep heading North on a bus? I'd STILL have to go up the stairs and down the stairs...like an animal.

Last edited by AndyMEng; Jul 24, 2017 at 1:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:00 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.