Ontario Highways

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The construction between Major Mack and King Road is supposed to finish this year in 2020. North of that, probably within a few years between here and Hwy 9.

I'd rather the Hwy 400 corridor just receive general purpose lanes than HOV lanes to be honest.

Given that carpooling rates continue to drop in the GTA, I'm not of the opinion that carpool lanes are actually changing behvaviour in a meaningful way.

I mean, right now, north of Major Mack it is 3 lanes a side. When will they be putting in more lanes, and how far would that be opened?

[Innsertnamehere]

Half the point of HOV lanes is so that they can be converted to HOT soon too, plus green vehicle ownership is still increasing rapidly and they are able to use them.

Personally I don’t mind that much as I pretty much only use the 400 to go to cottage country and I rarely do that drive alone so they will be quite useful for me.

[sonysnob]

The primary incentive for getting more green vehicles on the road is financial as well. Plus, there will come a day where green vehicles will need to be excluded from HOV lanes because there will simply be too many green vehicles on the road by then. California has already begun restricting green vehicles from driving with a single occupant from it’s carpool lanes.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I mean, right now, north of Major Mack it is 3 lanes a side. When will they be putting in more lanes, and how far would that be opened?

They are constructing a fourth HOV lane between Major Mack and King Road.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

They are constructing a fourth HOV lane between Major Mack and King Road.

So, once complete, it will still have the 3 per side, plus the new HOV lanes?

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, once complete, it will still have the 3 per side, plus the new HOV lanes?

Exactly.

And once complete as far as King Road, they’ll probably start extending them as far north as Highway 9.

[Dengler Avenue]

MTO can even extend the HOV lane up to Georgian College, convert it to general-purpose after that so Highway 11 will have 6 lanes for the first bit after the split. At that point, with 6 lanes, there should be for real no more RIRO but only proper interchanges.

[sonysnob]

Just for interest sake, I am sharing the carpooling statistics from StatsCan to illustrate why I don't think HOV lanes are effective.

These stats are from Toronto's CMA. Toronto's CMA doesn't cover the entire Greater Toronto Area, so these stats aren't perfect, but I think they illustrate the overall point.

In 2001, the census reports that 1,464,945 persons traveled to work as a driver while only 140,855 traveled to work as a passenger. So that leaves a carpooling rate of 9.6%

In 2016, the census reports that 1,714,795 persons traveled to work as a drive while only 154,360 traveled to work as a passenger. So the carpooling rate is 9.0%

Carpool lanes cost more than general purpose lanes, as the left-side shoulder of the freeway and buffer mean more pavement, and potentially very expensive drainage improvements. So, the province is spending more money in the GTA than they would be if the MTO were just widening highways with general purpose lanes (GPL), for an HOV lane program that isn't (at least on an aggregate level) proving to be effective.

It's hard to look at HOV lanes as a worthwhile investment with these statistics.

[Innsertnamehere]

I largely agree, however my understanding is that MTO is largely getting all these lanes built because they can bank on HOT tolls from them. The 427 extension is going to have the active tolling component activated once it’s complete on the extension, which should give us an idea of what to expect for it. HOT functionality should increase lane utilization rates too providing greater traffic relief than now where they are usually fairly empty.

The 400’s traffic issues too are generally not from commuter traffic but from recreational traffic, which has much higher rates of having passengers. The HOV on a Monday morning will probably be pretty empty, but Friday night will be rammed I’m sure as families and friends go up north.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I largely agree, however my understanding is that MTO is largely getting all these lanes built because they can bank on HOT tolls from them. The 427 extension is going to have the active tolling component activated once it’s complete on the extension, which should give us an idea of what to expect for it. HOT functionality should increase lane utilization rates too providing greater traffic relief than now where they are usually fairly empty.

I had thought that too about the 427. The press release for the former government indicated that it would have a HOT component right from the getgo, but I went through the contract documents and all of the HOT tolling components are listed as for future installation, and seemingly aren't included in the work that is ongoing to open the highway. It's not impossible that the MTO will call a contract right away to install tolling facilities before the 427 extension opens to traffic, but as of right now, it's not part of the current construction contract. It's also not impossible that I misread the contract drawings, but I'm usually pretty good at spotting things like this.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Exactly.

And once complete as far as King Road, they’ll probably start extending them as far north as Highway 9.

So, no real relief on that highway. They are building the bridges to fit 6 lanes a side, but are not building it out to 4 or 5 a side.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

It's hard to look at HOV lanes as a worthwhile investment with these statistics.

It's really simple. The Golden Horseshoe (and increasingly Ottawa) is a sprawling mess. Queen's Park is starting to get that they can't keep building more lanes and have induced demand take that up and create choking again in a few years. Especially with the GTA adding another million in the decade to come. So they are purposely incentivizing carpooling and penalizing single driving. It is both carrot and stick.

You should check out jurisdictions where the carpool requirement is not two people in the car but three. That creates some unique practices like "slugging".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's really simple. The Golden Horseshoe (and increasingly Ottawa) is a sprawling mess. Queen's Park is starting to get that they can't keep building more lanes and have induced demand take that up and create choking again in a few years. Especially with the GTA adding another million in the decade to come. So they are purposely incentivizing carpooling and penalizing single driving. It is both carrot and stick.

You should check out jurisdictions where the carpool requirement is not two people in the car but three. That creates some unique practices like "slugging".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slugging

Except that HOV lanes aren't actually changing drivers behaviour. And they cost more, so the taxpayer is left footing the bill for a more expensive solution that isn't accomplishing its stated goal. It's a nice thought, but at least according to StatsCan, carpooling isn't growing in Toronto's CMA. You don't have to agree with me, but I didn't make those numbers up.

I'm familiar with slugging, and HOV restrictions that require more than one person per vehicle. In all of these cases, these are specific requirements for very urban downtown centres (in the case of DC, where slugging is common, it also has a very specific primary employment base), None of the examples where slugging or HOV-3+ are common are remotely comparable to the 400 going north to Barrie.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Except that HOV lanes aren't actually changing drivers behaviour. And they cost more, so the taxpayer is left footing the bill for a more expensive solution that isn't accomplishing its stated goal. It's a nice thought, but at least according to StatsCan, carpooling isn't growing in Toronto's CMA. You don't have to agree with me, but I didn't make those numbers up.

I'm familiar with slugging, and HOV restrictions that require more than one person per vehicle. In all of these cases, these are specific requirements for very urban downtown centres (in the case of DC, where slugging is common, it also has a very specific primary employment base), None of the examples where slugging or HOV-3+ are common are remotely comparable to the 400 going north to Barrie.

The 401 proved that even with 18 lanes, traffic will only grow. The HOV lanes have also proved that they will not reduce congestion.

So, what is the solution?

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The 401 proved that even with 18 lanes, traffic will only grow. The HOV lanes have also proved that they will not reduce congestion.

So, what is the solution?

If the city of Toronto stops politicizing transit plans~~~ At this point I’m also assuming that GTA West Corridor won’t cut it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

If the city of Toronto stops politicizing transit plans~~~ At this point I’m also assuming that GTA West Corridor won’t cut it.

The blame is not just the city of Toronto. Every politician is to blame.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The 401 proved that even with 18 lanes, traffic will only grow. The HOV lanes have also proved that they will not reduce congestion.

So, what is the solution?

Toronto is a huge city, and the section of the 401 that has 18 lanes is right beside the airport and a huge industrial area. The airport disrupts the east-west local road network, and the local industry creates a huge amount of truck traffic. And, probably most notably, the congestion experienced on the 18 lane section is almost exclusively located in the eastbound collector lanes. The MTO could fix this pretty easily, but that would just add more traffic to the eastbound 401 beyond the 427 where the real congestion starts.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Toronto is a huge city, and the section of the 401 that has 18 lanes is right beside the airport and a huge industrial area. The airport disrupts the east-west local road network, and the local industry creates a huge amount of truck traffic. And, probably most notably, the congestion experienced on the 18 lane section is almost exclusively located in the eastbound collector lanes. The MTO could fix this pretty easily, but that would just add more traffic to the eastbound 401 beyond the 427 where the real congestion starts.

So, how do you fix that congestion? In short, what can be done to reduce the congestion through the GTA? Already there are between 6-9 lanes a side on the 401 and it is bad almost all day.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, how do you fix that congestion? In short, what can be done to reduce the congestion through the GTA? Already there are between 6-9 lanes a side on the 401 and it is bad almost all day.

There isn't a way to just eliminate congestion in Toronto.

But, I question the logic of spending 20% more on an HOV lane compared to a GLP when, at least at an aggregate level, carpooling isn't increasing in the GTA.

That 20% could be used for public transit projects for example.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

There isn't a way to just eliminate congestion in Toronto.

But, I question the logic of spending 20% more on an HOV lane compared to a GLP when, at least at an aggregate level, carpooling isn't increasing in the GTA.

That 20% could be used for public transit projects for example.

I mean, we didn’t know until you showed us the numbers. In the context of Highway 400 (and possibly Highway 404 from Exit 45 - Wellington Street onward), we should just beef up Barrie Line service from here on. As for the milk run 66, I don’t know if it’s worth keeping.