Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[bomberjet]

The so very Winnipeg part of it is that not one of the numerous plans proposed for regional traffic have ever been completed. Hence why we have this haphazard and disconnected traffic network.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The so very Winnipeg part of it is that not one of the numerous plans proposed for regional traffic have ever been completed. Hence why we have this haphazard and disconnected traffic network.

Well it seems Winnipeg is great at making plans then starting them but seems to have the attention span of a goldfish when it comes to seeing them through.

May come down to the willingness of politicians to constantly reverse course with the changing of administrations. One will draft a plan that seems fairly solid then start on it, the next will scrap those plans halfway through and come up with something else, but then some interest group will suddenly realize that that land we had set aside for a regional road connection is endangered tall grass prairie and we must preserve it at all costs, prompting the next politician to partition and sell the other land out of laziness and the need to prop up other political priorities with new capital.

It's such a mess. No one has the staying power to properly plan, implement, and execute a real transportation strategy.

[plrh]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Well it seems Winnipeg is great at making plans then starting them but seems to have the attention span of a goldfish when it comes to seeing them through.

May come down to the willingness of politicians to constantly reverse course with the changing of administrations. One will draft a plan that seems fairly solid then start on it, the next will scrap those plans halfway through and come up with something else, but then some interest group will suddenly realize that that land we had set aside for a regional road connection is endangered tall grass prairie and we must preserve it at all costs, prompting the next politician to partition and sell the other land out of laziness and the need to prop up other political priorities with new capital.

It's such a mess. No one has the staying power to properly plan, implement, and execute a real transportation strategy.

I don't think politicians should have much say in this. Let the engineers do what they are trained to do. Then the landscape architects can come in and make it look presentable.

[Winnipegger]

Originally Posted by plrh

I don't think politicians should have much say in this. Let the engineers do what they are trained to do. Then the landscape architects can come in and make it look presentable.

I've heard anecdotally that Winnipeg's City Council is structured in such a way that it has way more political influence and say over infrastructure and planning decisions than most other comparable jurisdictions in Canada.

I don't know how true that is, or even how such a thing would be measured, but if it is true that may explain why are transportation network is so haphazard and disjointed.

I think we all have a few examples in mind of this. Like when you drive down Bishop Grandin at Pembina, you see elements of "big city" thinking with both grade separations in traffic, rail, and rapid transportation. But then keep taking Bishop to the St. Vital area and it feels more like a bigger Steinbach with high-speed regional roads intersecting with local collectors every 50 meters. Similarly, elements of Chief Peguis Trail feel "big city" but the intersection at Lag just kills it.

I know the City is supposed to be doing a full ring road study within the next few years, but I very confident that there will not be the money nor political appetite to implement any recommendation in it that costs more than half a million dollars. Politicians love getting their hands messy in road projects, and we see evidence of this everywhere in Winnipeg.

I heard that on the east side of Bishop Grandin, Lakewood from Southdale and Island Shore from Island Lakes were supposed to be one intersection, but at the time of planning some local politician somehow convinced administration to split up the two. Now decades later we are stuck with a much less efficient transportation network in that section of the City all because of one politician's decision to appease what were likely a few squeaky wheels in their ward.

[plrh]

I've noticed lately the city has been tearing out old concrete backlanes in River Heights and replacing them with 4" of asphalt on base (not an overlay). To which I was shocked and dismayed. The ultimate shortsightedness. Backlanes typically get more heavy traffic than residential front streets (garbage trucks, concrete mixers, hydro bucket trucks) so they are the place where a heavier road is needed. I'm only thinking 6" concrete. Front streets are just for parking and through-traffic. Those lanes should fail shortly after the next election.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

I've heard anecdotally that Winnipeg's City Council is structured in such a way that it has way more political influence and say over infrastructure and planning decisions than most other comparable jurisdictions in Canada.

I don't know how true that is, or even how such a thing would be measured, but if it is true that may explain why are transportation network is so haphazard and disjointed.

For city projects I'm pretty sure every city has the power to determine how planning decisions and infrastructure projects are going to turn out. I'm also sure that every province has the power to take control over certain projects and dictate how funding must be spent on others. If the MB government decided that they were going to build a bypass freeway for Winnipeg they could do so with no input from the city. I doubt they would go that far as some input is needed but after a certain point they could easily say this is how the road is going to be so deal with it. They might even force the city to upgrade certain roads connecting into the freeway. As an outsider, it sure seems like the biggest impediment to Winnipeg getting a freeway built around the city is lack of political will on the province's part. There are financial options available to fund such a project so that's not the issue.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

For city projects I'm pretty sure every city has the power to determine how planning decisions and infrastructure projects are going to turn out. I'm also sure that every province has the power to take control over certain projects and dictate how funding must be spent on others. If the MB government decided that they were going to build a bypass freeway for Winnipeg they could do so with no input from the city. I doubt they would go that far as some input is needed but after a certain point they could easily say this is how the road is going to be so deal with it. They might even force the city to upgrade certain roads connecting into the freeway. As an outsider, it sure seems like the biggest impediment to Winnipeg getting a freeway built around the city is lack of political will on the province's part. There are financial options available to fund such a project so that's not the issue.

What are the financial options? I'd have thought that the biggest and, really, only impediment is that the province hasn't got money to splurge on a freeway. Presumably everyone would like there to be a freeway around the city.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Andy6

What are the financial options? I'd have thought that the biggest and, really, only impediment is that the province hasn't got money to splurge on a freeway. Presumably everyone would like there to be a freeway around the city.

P3 combined with federal funding. It's not like the entire road would have to be built in a few years. They could also easily cut back on the number of interchanges some plans I've seen have proposed. Doing so would save a lot of money and make the freeway safer.

[dam_well]

Originally Posted by plrh

I've noticed lately the city has been tearing out old concrete backlanes in River Heights and replacing them with 4" of asphalt on base (not an overlay). To which I was shocked and dismayed. The ultimate shortsightedness. Backlanes typically get more heavy traffic than residential front streets (garbage trucks, concrete mixers, hydro bucket trucks) so they are the place where a heavier road is needed. I'm only thinking 6" concrete. Front streets are just for parking and through-traffic. Those lanes should fail shortly after the next election.

I thought that was an odd choice too. I wonder what changed this year vs. previous years of similar back lane rebuilds in the area.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

I think we all have a few examples in mind of this. Like when you drive down Bishop Grandin at Pembina, you see elements of "big city" thinking with both grade separations in traffic, rail, and rapid transportation. But then keep taking Bishop to the St. Vital area and it feels more like a bigger Steinbach with high-speed regional roads intersecting with local collectors every 50 meters. Similarly, elements of Chief Peguis Trail feel "big city" but the intersection at Lag just kills it.

Yeah I agree. Not just Lag but Gateway and Henderson. Also true for Lag and BG.

Speaking of Chief Peguis, how the heck did Rothesay get an overpass? Weren't the other intersections also supposed to get an over pass or an interchange?

[Luisito]

It would be nice to see this actually happen.
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[Dengler Avenue]

Will the inner Ring Road be linked to Perimeter Highway anyhow then?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Will the inner Ring Road be linked to Perimeter Highway anyhow then?

Only through existing routes...mostly normal city streets, but a couple of routes are a bit more expressway-like in character such as Centreport Canada Way, Kenaston, Lagimodiere, etc.

[Dengler Avenue]

but a couple of routes are a bit more expressway-like in character such as Centreport Canada Way, Kenaston, Lagimodiere, etc.

okay good enough~

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by Luisito

It would be nice to see this actually happen.
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The stage has been already set. It's just a matter of them getting out of the holding pattern, probably because of this current pandemic, and how the former Liberal MP in the area made it an election issue last fall.

[Luisito]

Changing the topic a bit, how long do you guys think it will take for the the entire area within the perimeter to be urbanized. SImilar to the way Edmonton is in the Anthony Henday Drive highway? The biggest pockets are the South West section and the North west area. The eastern portion has empty pockets too but seems to be slowly buidling up.

It would be interesting to compare the size of the area within the perimtere highway with Edmonton.

[Andy6]

The issue would be that most of the undeveloped area isn't part of the City of Winnipeg.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Changing the topic a bit, how long do you guys think it will take for the the entire area within the perimeter to be urbanized. SImilar to the way Edmonton is in the Anthony Henday Drive highway? The biggest pockets are the South West section and the North west area. The eastern portion has empty pockets too but seems to be slowly buidling up.

It would be interesting to compare the size of the area within the perimtere highway with Edmonton.

It’s not a 1:1 comparison because of a few reasons:

First the city of Edmonton borders Anthony Henday, whereas the city of Winnipeg is beyond some portions of the Perimeter, and within other portions (not city boundary so it would fall on the RM to develop in there)

Second, Anthony henday is smaller than the Perimeter at about 78km versus the Perimeter Highways 90km, so there is more area within to need to be developed on. Perimeter highway is closer in length to the (future) completed Stoney Trail in Calgary (99km when done). In the SW, much of that land is protected so outside of building the SW portion, nothing else will be developed - meanwhile the north and south are experiencing development outside of Stoney trail. This is important to mention because it would mean a lot more land would need to developed on to fill up to perimeter. Most likely, will have development out side where city owns the land.

Third, I’m certain that some of that land is owned by farmers as well who would need to be on board with selling

Fourth, Centre port has land dibs on the NW portion, so that will fill out with time with their development. That will take decades to fill out and presumes continuous growth. It’s a massive area, appx 2/3 the size of Regina; hence will take decades. Will be industrial parks similar to what is currently in the region by the centre port canada way freeway

The biggest reason though is land ownership imo, as that prevents the development in the first place. Bar annexation of said land to allow for/intent for development, That urbanization May never happen in certain regions

[esquire]

A lot of the non-Winnipeg lands within the Perimeter are total amateur hour, and the City should probably be grateful for that. There are mostly just ugly and ramshackle industrial parks in West St. Paul and Springfield, and nicer ones in the RM of Rosser and MacDonald. But what happens if MacDonald wants to start building residential subdivisions? They could easily sell lots of land for that purpose given that it's arguably the most desirable quadrant of suburban land, and the City has now practically grown right out to the boundaries around there. Is there anything preventing them from doing that, other than just owners rezoning the land?

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by esquire

A lot of the non-Winnipeg lands within the Perimeter are total amateur hour, and the City should probably be grateful for that. There are mostly just ugly and ramshackle industrial parks in West St. Paul and Springfield, and nicer ones in the RM of Rosser and MacDonald. But what happens if MacDonald wants to start building residential subdivisions? They could easily sell lots of land for that purpose given that it's arguably the most desirable quadrant of suburban land, and the City has now practically grown right out to the boundaries around there. Is there anything preventing them from doing that, other than just owners rezoning the land?

Water and sewer would be the only impediment.