Mountain Plaza

[LikeHamilton]

No approval yet for Mountain Plaza redevelopment
Public open house set for Thursday March 6

By Mark Newman, Mountain News

Residents living near Mountain Plaza Mall can get a first-hand look at the proposed $50 million redevelopment of the site at Upper James and Fennell at a public open house March 6.

Organized by mall-owner SmartCentres, the open house will be held in unit 84 on the south side of the mall near the Beer Store from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Drawings of the proposed redevelopment will be on display and company officials will be on hand to answer questions.

Meanwhile, the redevelopment plan still has a few hurdles to clear with city officials.

A new location for the loading area behind Wal-Mart and a tree management plan are among the issues city officials want resolved before they get into the fine points of the redevelopment plan.

The proposal by SmartCentres, owner of the mall, was discussed at the development review committee earlier this month but not approved.

"There were a number of issues identified," said Ray Lee, the city's acting manager of development planning. "We have concerns with noise impact."

Mr. Lee said the committee, comprised of staff and officials from a number of city departments, wants to see the loading area at the rear of what is to be a new Wal-Mart moved elsewhere so the truck noise, particularly from refrigeration trucks, will not disturb residents on the south side of the site, including Allenby and Howard avenues.

"The last thing we want to see is an 18 foot high noise wall along the back of the building," Mr. Lee said.

SmartCentres will also be asked to provide a tree management plan that will detail how many and what species of existing tress will be saved and removed and how many new trees will be added as part of landscaping plans.

Mr. Lee said the committee wants to see pedestrian linkages or a system of walkways around the site that will link each of the buildings, the parking lot and nearby bus stops.

"Parking's still an issue," said Mr. Lee, adding he won't be able to say for certain if the matter has been adequately addressed until he sees the final plan for the site. Current plans call for 1,066 parking spaces, including 505 spaces for Wal-Mart.

In addition, the city wants to see a phasing plan that will outline the order of construction.

Christine Cote, the Mountain Plaza Mall project manager for SmartCentres, isn't surprised at what came out of the Feb. 6 committee meeting.

"We knew going into the meeting there would be some issues to work out with the city," Ms. Cote said. "It's nothing we can't work through."

Ms. Cote expects the requested information will be supplied to the city by the end of the month. Mr. Lee said it will likely take another two or three weeks for staff to review the material before the matter is brought back to the development review committee.

"It's a high priority," said Mr. Lee, who added the project, if approved, will "trigger some positive economic impacts" to the area.

SmartCentres is looking to knock down all but one of the buildings on the 7.6 hectare (18.8 acre) site at Upper James and Fennell and erect six new retail buildings, including a 130,103 square-foot Wal-Mart. Construction work could begin later this year starting with road improvements along Fennell and Upper James in the spring or summer. Work on some of new buildings slated to go up along Upper James could begin in the late summer or fall.

Ms. Cote said they don't know yet exactly how many current tenants will be staying, noting some have indicated they plan to close or move elsewhere.

"We would like to retain as many tenants in the mall as possible," Ms. Cote said.

Since proper zoning is already in place, the mall redevelopment does not require approval from city council, nor is a public meeting required.

[raisethehammer]

"nor is a public meeting required".

Music to a developers ears.

[go_leafs_go02]

good..that mall is a dump.

my first 'shopping' experience in hamilton was there, in early september, me and my friend (who came from out towards sarnia) looked at eachother, and said 'what are we doing here?'

some redevelopment definitely is needed in that plaza/mall. Be excited to see the plans.

[raisethehammer]

I'm not a mall fan, but I've always loved this old place.
It'll suck if they turn it into a phony, disneyesque dive like Limeridge.
The big box option will suck too. Safe to say seniors in Hamilton are gradually being forced back into their homes and apartments as their coffee/chit-chat/hanging out places are destroyed one-by-one.
Great direction our society is heading - nothing for young people to do. Nothing for seniors to do.
If you're in the middle there's only one thing you SHOULD be doing - going to work and then giving away all of your money to these people.
Exciting stuff.

[HAMRetrofit]

^ on the bright side McDonalds and Wendys now have big comfortable leather couches and fireplaces.

[BrianE]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I'm not a mall fan, but I've always loved this old place.
It'll suck if they turn it into a phony, disneyesque dive like Limeridge.
The big box option will suck too. Safe to say seniors in Hamilton are gradually being forced back into their homes and apartments as their coffee/chit-chat/hanging out places are destroyed one-by-one.
Great direction our society is heading - nothing for young people to do. Nothing for seniors to do.
If you're in the middle there's only one thing you SHOULD be doing - going to work and then giving away all of your money to these people.
Exciting stuff.

Oh come on RTH, i'm surprised with your statement. This mall embodies every negative comment you've ever made about suburban commercial development. It's ugly, there's more parking space than building space. There is less than zero thought put into architecture or landscaping. The traffic patterns and entrances are death to anybody wanting to walk past or into this mall. Aside from being a meeting place for people for lunch or coffee(and that's only because it's the only place in the area that they can meet) this mall is terrible.

While i'm not a big fan of big box development in general, if there was ever a case of "anything is better than what it is now" this is it!

[raisethehammer]

I humbly disagree.
You made a great comment though in that last statement - "it's the only place in the area they CAN meet". that's huge.
Of course I'm no fan of malls and never-ending parking lots etc..... but IMO this new proposal is worse, not better. It's another step back.
Having said that, I'm rarely there so it won't affect my life, but for all the folks who (as you said) have nowhere else to meet it will drastically affect their lives.
And of course, more big box is NEVER a good thing. Never a step forward.

[SteelTown]

When I grew up Mountain Plaza was the place I spent a lot of time at with my mom. My mom loved the place especially TGs the restaurant (her and my grandma's hang out place), next to Moore's. I remember Woolco, popping the balloon and praying for a free banana spilt lol. Plus I was baby of the week at that place, think I posted that picture here lol.

Now it's been probably a good 10 years since I've been there.

[BrianE]

I'm just having a hard time finding a reason to object to this development. To me one huge shopping area surrounded a thousand parking spaces and 6 or 7 slightly smaller buildings surrounded by a thousand parking spaces is essentialy the same thing. People can still meet for lunch or coffee, the only difference is that it's in a separate building from the walmart instead of being attached to it.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I myself find the "nostalgia" around the MPM interesting--particularly amongst urbanists. It was a huge, suburban strip center surrounded by parking and anchored by Woolco (the Wal*Mart of its day). It was "enclosed" ever so minimally in the late 70s--really it's creating was part of the first wave of "suburban" retail centers that began to draw business from downtown...but alas, here, in this world, it will somehow be missed.

For myself, having some interest in retail "history"--the MPM has none of the qualities that the Centre has. Mind you as SteelTown pointed out, Woolco (all Woolcos for that matter) had a killer restaurant called The Red Grill--awesome desserts.

I also don't see what's so "disneyesque" about Lime Ridge (two words)--Vaughan Mills is disneyesque--Lime Ridge is actually pretty austere design and tenant-wise--what it is is a 25 year old regional shopping center that has had an unmistakable track record when it comes to making money.

[LikeHamilton]

Redevelopment open house cancelled

Feb 29, 2008 Hamilton Mountain News.com

The public open house regarding the $50- million redevelopment of Mountain Plaza Mall slated for March 6 has been cancelled Christine Cote, project manager for mall owner SmartCentres, said the company is still working with the city on revisions to their site plan and the open house will be rescheduled at a future date.

Earlier this month city planning officials asked for some adjustments to the site plan including shifting the loading area behind the new Wal-Mart to another location to lessen the impact of truck noise on neighbours.

The city was also expected to ask for a tree management plan and some concerns were raised about the number of parking spaces on the redeveloped site.

[SteelTown]

Mountain Plaza reno behind schedule

Meredith Macleod
The Hamilton Spectator
(Apr 7, 2008)

A $50-million redevelopment of Mountain Plaza Mall has slipped behind schedule over concerns about traffic and relocating tenants.

"We were hoping to be 'site plan approved' by now," said Christine Cote, land development manager with SmartCentres Ltd.

The project's timeline had called for construction to start this spring, but Cote says that will be pushed back into the summer.

She said SmartCentres representatives have been meeting with city planners for three weeks over traffic, servicing and urban design issues.

"We're making progress, but there are a few more hurdles."

A city planning official did not return calls.

Plans call for the Upper James and Fennell mall to make way for a 130,000-square-foot stand-alone Wal-Mart surrounded by two strip malls and two buildings along Upper James.

It would bring the mall, built in the 1950s, in line with current retail trends -- which strongly favour power centre designs.

Plans call for a traffic light off busy Upper James.

Neighbours are also concerned about the noise of trucks unloading at Wal-Mart, said Ward 7 Councillor Scott Duvall. That will be addressed with a berm and fencing, he said.

When plans to redevelop the mall were revealed last fall, tenants were nervous.

But Cote says tenants who agree will be relocated to new buildings before the old mall is torn down.

"There won't be any demolition until the spring of next year. We know our tenants can't afford to be dark for months."

Cote said she hopes to get the city's approval in time to get public consultation in May or June.

SmartCentres purchased Mountain Plaza Mall in November 2006.

The Vaughan-based company says on its website it opens a new shopping centre every three to four weeks and manages 185 retail centres across Canada.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by BrianE

I'm just having a hard time finding a reason to object to this development. To me one huge shopping area surrounded a thousand parking spaces and 6 or 7 slightly smaller buildings surrounded by a thousand parking spaces is essentialy the same thing. People can still meet for lunch or coffee, the only difference is that it's in a separate building from the walmart instead of being attached to it.

But it's different. Yes the current parking and traffic situation sucks, but that can be fixed without reconfiguring the entire area. The big box plan is awful BECAUSE the buildings are separated. So now, they are going to put traffic crossings and parking lots between each store... hell for pedestrians. So people who have cars will actually drive from store to store rather than walking. Have you tried walking from home depot in ancaster to the "neighbouring" Winners? it's a nightmare. SO seniors and kids will be out of luck, they will have to walk across parking lots to get from store to store.

And above all that, it's not just nostalgia that attaches people to this mall. It's the feeling inside. To me, it may be "dumpy" by today's retail standards, but it could be brightened up a bit through renovations. Despite the dumpiness though, the real magic of this place is in its layout. Most of the stores are smaller -- a more human scale than the uncomfortable enormous warehouse store model. And there are lots of little independent shops. It's almost like a mini indoor market.

So, a lot of us on here "rally against" retail developments. Personally, I am not at all against retail development, as long as it's done on a human scale, and put onto land that makes sense for retail (i.e. not prime industrial land). I know that it seems hypocritical for some of us to defend this mall, but let's be honest - it's already there. The services are well used and well needed by the community. I don't think any of us are going to advocate removing retail from that spot. But most of us would generally rather see smart redevelopment whenever possible rather than razing a place and starting over -- even if the original place is a little ugly.

Smart Centres just doesn't have the creative ability to make current spaces work. All they know is building disposable boxes on "shovel ready land". I have little hope in any character remaining at that spot. I have no nostalgic attachment to that mall other than my occasional visits to Bulk Barn in the past year (a store which probably won't find a place in the big box style redevelopment). But I do have an attachment to the fact that this space is scaled more toward humans and less toward hummers.

[LikeHamilton]

Mountain Plaza Mall redevelopment in jeopardy?

Dispute over parking spaces could scuttle $50 million development

By Mark Newman, Mountain News, May 23, 2008


A proposal by SmartCentres to eliminate 597 parking spaces as part of its redevelopment plans for Mountain Plaza Mall could end up nixing the $50 million project.

The city's committee of adjustment last week tabled the Vaughan-based company's request for several on-site variances after some committee members questioned the proposal to reduce the minimum number of parking spaces at the plaza at Upper James and Fennell from 1616 as required under city bylaws to 1019. Currently there are 1194 parking spaces around the mall.

The move puts the project on hold pending a review of the parking plan for the development.

Christine Cote, land development manager for SmartCentres, was disappointed with the committee's decision, noting city planning staff support the project.

"If we don't get the variance for the parking, it's unlikely that a redevelopment will go through," said Ms. Cote, who maintains all of the requested variances, including the number of parking spaces are minor in nature and are in line with city policies and current trends in the shopping plaza industry.

"Purchasing the mall was a very expensive endeavour and in order to make a redevelopment work, we have to fit so much GLA (gross leasable area) on the site."

SmartCentres is looking to tear down all the existing buildings on the 7.6 hectare (18.8 acres) site with the exception of the building at the north end of the property along Fennell Avenue and build six new retail buildings including a 130,103 square-foot Wal-Mart and a 17,035 square-foot Shoppers Drug Mart and a two storey retail office mixed-use building.

Four of the buildings are slated to go up along Upper James. The new Wal-Mart will anchor the south end of the site backing against Allenby and Howard avenues. A long, rectangular-shaped building is planned for the north-east side of the property near Terrace Drive. A site plan was submitted to the city last fall.

Since the area is currently zoned for shopping centre use city council approval is not required. However, some of the redevelopment plans (number of parking spaces, loading areas and setbacks from surrounding property) do not conform with city bylaws and minor variance approvals for those changes are required from the committee of adjustment.

Eric Saulesleja, a planning consultant for SmartCentres, told the May 15 meeting the mall, originally built in 1973, is in need of renovations and modernization and the new development will create a more pleasant walking environment along Upper James.

But, many neighbours living around the mall are not pleased with the proposed redevelopment. About a dozen or so of them attended the meeting, several voicing their displeasure about the reduction in parking spaces in particular.

"If Wal-Mart needs a larger, independent facility, I suggest they go further south on Upper James," said Terrace Drive resident Charles Stirling.

Lawyer Jerry Aggus, representing a numbered company that owns a nearby variety store, said the plan to reduce the number of parking spaces by nearly 600 is not a minor variance.

"I think the report submitted by the applicant is somewhat suspect," Mr. Aggus said.

He said his client is concerned that fewer parking spaces might result in mall customers taking up parking spots at the variety store.

Mr. Aggus also complained that additional requests for variances were put before the committee without being properly circulated in the community and the committee ought not to consider them until the public has been informed.

Former Hamilton councillor and committee of adjustment member Don Drury called the parking issue the "800 pound gorilla in the room."

While most committee members did not appear to have a problem with variance requests for reducing the size of parking spaces or set-backs from private property surrounding the site, it was clear a number of them would either not support the reduced number of parking spaces or sought more information as to the rationale for the reduction.

"I think the reduction of almost 200 parking spaces (from the current number) is pretty serious," Mr. Drury said.

Grant Pretorius, vice president of development at SmartCentres said the company will review the site plan and provide more information to support their case. He couldn't say if the site plan could be reworked to add more parking spaces.

According to a report prepared for the committee, city planning staff "is satisfied that the proposed reduction in parking is appropriate in that sufficient parking would be provided to meet with anticipated demand at most times."

Comments from city parking operations took a different view.

"This is an overall reduction of 597 parking spaces." the report states. "It is our opinion that the scope of this variance is not minor in nature as it is likely to have a noticeable impact to the residents in the surrounding neighbourhoods."

According to an assessment done by city parking officials, the proposed number of spaces at the mall would only be able to handle peak demands for parking from Monday to Thursday in non December months and on Sundays in non December months.

Mr. Saulesleja said a week-long study done by the company last June showed on average that about 689 parking spaces at the mall were being used at any given time.[/QUOTE]

.

[raisethehammer]

hold onto your hats people, I'm about to defend (*gags*) Smart Centres.
Let's see.
We're talking about putting LRT right out front of this development and we might cancel it because of a loss of parking spaces???
Has anyone ever been back to the east and south sides of MPM? The lot is death empty, all the time.
If the city is going to act like this, they might as well scrap LRT plans. Other cities have been redeveloped along LRT lines by encouraging LESS parking and MORE building space along the LRT line.

Ok, I need to run to the bathroom......

[DC83]

Has anyone seen these plans?

I really hoped they would rebuild a streetwall along Upp. James, but I didn't have much faith in SmartCentres. So was this reduction is spaces due to building along Upp. James rather than just in the back of the lot (like earlier power centres)? If so, I'm sure SmartCentres and people with common sense can talk the city into making a parking bylaw exception inlieu of the (re)building of a streetwall here.

[flar]

Smart Centres simply wants to use more of the land for retail space than is currently the case. More retail area=more money, parking makes them nothing and that parking lot is never full anyways.

[SteelTown]

Mall plan stalls over parking
Developer wants to nix spots in favour of retail space

May 28, 2008
Meredith Macleod
The Hamilton Spectator

A $55-million redevelopment of the Mountain Plaza Mall has hit a snag over parking.

Developer SmartCentres, which plans to demolish most of the existing mall and build six new retail structures, wants to nix 594 spots in favour of more retail space.

The city's committee of adjustment tabled the application and will hear more information at a public hearing June 5.

SmartCentres is warning it will have to reconsider its plans for the site if the variance isn't granted.

The developer says the plaza has 1,194 spots and about 200 spots on the site are not used except on the busiest days of December.

"We are reorganizing the parking field to create more efficient parking," said Christine Cote, land development manager for SmartCentres.

Upper James and Fennell are both identified by the city as priority corridors for public transit, she noted.

In its submissions to the city, SmartCentres said Mountain Plaza should be held to urban parking requirements, not suburban ones.

Cote said many customers currently arrive by bus or walk to the mall.

In all, SmartCentres is requesting 11 variances on setbacks, loading spaces, parking stall size and the number of spots. It seems the only stumbling block is the number of parking spaces.

Don Drury, a committee of adjustment member, says the mall is already deficient on parking and shouldn't be allowed to cut more when the retail space will grow by 70,000 square feet. He said residential and business neighbours worry that overflow parking will clog nearby streets and parking lots.

Drury said the committee has to stick to the planning rules, "otherwise we should throw away the planning book and let people do whatever they want."

Councillor Scott Duvall, who represents the area, says he was initially concerned about the hit to parking.

But he's been reassured by consultants' reports provided by the developer and the support of planning staff. He also said he hasn't heard any direct complaints from neighbours.

SmartCentres plans to build a 130,000-square-foot Wal-Mart, a 17,000-square-foot Shoppers Drug Mart and a two-storey mixed-use retail and office complex.

"This is a very expensive endeavour. It's more than a $55-million investment and we need to fit as many retail buildings on the site as possible," said Cote.

"We will have to take a serious look at this development if we don't get this variance."

Planning staff supported the parking variance, saying "sufficient parking would be provided to meet with anticipated demand at most times."

Staff also said there isn't sufficient street parking easily accessible to the mall and the developer has agreed to provide dedicated employee parking.

But the city's parking division said the variance is not minor in nature and will likely have an impact on neighbours.

Parking staff say, based on studies of parking needs of similar shopping centres, the developer's proposal would fail to provide adequate parking throughout December and on Fridays and Saturdays outside December.

[realcity]

this is unbelievable. A suburban developer is getting slapped by the city for not being suburban enough. Let's make sure the parking lot sits 50% empty for most of the time except for two Saturdays in December.

Let it be Smart Center's problem if there isn't enough parking and customers stay away because of it.

Look at the contradiction. "Staff also said there isn't sufficient street parking easily accessible to the mall" BUT Staff also believes the parking will overflow into nearby residential streets. What is it? Are the nearby streets accessible to the mall or not?

[FairHamilton]

Yeah, I`ve got lots of problems with their plan and their arguments.

For one it states only 200 spots are not usually used, but they want to eliminate 594. Huh??? Who is doing that math? I also like how they would like the area to be treated as urban. If they wanted an urban area they should have purchased property in the lower city.

And they talk about making parking more efficient, when that means they are making the parking spots smaller. Also, I like how it`s thrown out that many people either walk or take public transit. How many, is many, 5% 10%, 40%, etc? I`m going to guess it`s less (probably much less) than 5%. And when do these people come by foot, or public transit? At noon Monday - Wednesday when the place isn`t busy, or on a Saturday afternoon? Also, lets keep in mind the mall is changing from a place with covered common areas to outdoors, so the retired people who come during the week to walk the mall and meet for coffee and sit on a bench are not going to be around like they used to be.

And I hate how councillors are often reassured by consultant reports provided by the party with the most to gain, the developer. Is it not understood that reports generally support the view of those paying for the report?

I do not see any valid arguments put forward to change the parking rules. Smart Centres knew the rules going in and should abide by them. If they have to change their plan then go ahead change their plan.