Hamilton Votes 2008

[adam]

Anyone check out Bills C-51 and C-52? Here's an interesting fact, for the past 10 years there have been at least 8 cases each year of listeria in Alberta alone, and yet little to no media coverage... something doesn't add up for me. I guess a majority gov't would allow Harper to make more drastic changes. He's all for the gradual merging of Canada and the US as well. I suppose some people want that?

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by highwater

Sounds like you care. Maybe you should vote.

well, of course I care. Why would you think I don't??
I care enough to not vote for any of these lying losers.

[drpgq]

So you're saying that it is better for the GST money to be doled out as Mandarins (no doubt educated individuals) in Ottawa see fit, rather than allowing taxpayers to make market decisions with it. Considering the governments we've had over the past decades and the value for the money we've gotten, I'd rather keep the money in the hands of the taxpayers than the social engineers.

Originally Posted by DC83

^^ some said that about the GST reduction, and it still won people over.

Generally, there are voters who are stupid and will vote with whoever is going to save THEM the most money. If it's $0.02 on a bag of chips, sure! If it's $0.53 on a tank of gas the "HELL YA I'm votin for the guy that's going to save me $50 over the matter of 12 months!"

Our job, as educated individuals, is to bring light to these useless promises and expose them for what they are:
-decrease in GST saves you almost no money, and lowers the GST rebate cheque amount for those who need it most
-decrease in a fuel tax that goes (almost) directly back to the Cities that run Canada!
-Harper, an american-styled social conservative who only smiles b/c his team of publicists tell him to.

I don't see how Westerners can see right thru this guy? His eyes scream 'Hidden Agenda'... or maybe it's the hand-wringing & lip-licking? I dunno he's just creepy.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

yea, you're right. Because I choose to not participate in a huge waste of taxpayers dollars by some of the most greedy, corrupt corporations on the planet eliminates my opinion on political issues?? Wow....they really got you to suck back the koolaid.

So your issue is money being wasted because of a preemtive election call, right? It's one guy that did that, not the whole system as you insinuate.

If you think this is a waste of money, consider the whole US system. They only do it every 4 years but the whole thing drags out so god damn long, it's hardly over before it starts again. Hell, they've been at this thing for like a year, and here we just made the call and will be through with it next month while they keep dragging it out.

Not voting is not an effective means of protest in this system. You can't 'choose not to participate'. By being born here and automatically being a citizen, you participate. The only choices are participating badly or participating well.

[raisethehammer]

at this stage in the game, I don't see any other choice other than participating badly.
And no, my only issue isn't the nonsensical reason for the election call. I can't stand political parties. Politics used to be about ideas, people, citizens and the nation.
Now it's all about these private parties and their millions of dollars and corruption and greed etc.....
The US system is a joke. I would never want that here.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

CUT the gas tax??? Wow. shows how out of touch with reality these clowns really are.

All the more reason to vote for a party that's not out of touch.

If you're sick of the Conservatives, hate the Liberals and don't trust the NDP, then vote Green. If nothing else, your vote guarantees the Green party $1.75 a year in party funding so they can continue to develop their platform and mount a challenge to the status quo.

Originally Posted by DC83

What has Harper and his conservatives done for the Environment over the last 2.5 years?

They couldn't get anything done because they were too busy blaming the Liberals for not getting anything done when they were in power.

In fairness, they did pass a climate change plan ... that actually allows the energy industry to increase its greenhouse gas emissions.

No wonder they're attacking the Green Shift so hard - their own environmental track record is one of their biggest weaknesses and they know it.

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Fastcarsfreedom, you and I both know that membership to Opus Dei is not significant simply because it is a Christian religion.

I'm not sure why it's that significant. Opus Dei is a conservative Catholic ministry that encourages its lay members to do "the work of God" (Opus Dei in English) in their communities - to "find God in daily life" - as opposed to inside a monastery or the Church bureaucracy.

It's decidedly not the nefarious, shadowy cabal depicted in Dan Brown's lumpen "Da Vinci Code".

The organization emphasizes daily service and "mortification", which can range from steadfast dedication to important but unpleasant tasks to small sacrifices of pleasure, abstaining from luxuries, fasting, celibacy, and for some, suffering physical discomfort or even pain.

That may sound bizarre to some, but it's straightforward Catholic doctrine, as reflected in Lenten fasting, abstaining from meat on Fridays, and so on. Christianity in general emphasizes sacrifice and suffering (e.g. the Beatitudes).

Since we already knew Sweet is a conservative Christian, it's hardly a revelation to discover that he's a member of a conservative Christian organization.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

at this stage in the game, I don't see any other choice other than participating badly.
And no, my only issue isn't the nonsensical reason for the election call. I can't stand political parties. Politics used to be about ideas, people, citizens and the nation.
Now it's all about these private parties and their millions of dollars and corruption and greed etc.....
The US system is a joke. I would never want that here.

I'm sure the green party isn't rolling in dough, so vote for them. Like I said, your non vote equals some fraction of a vote for every candidate except the one that you would have voted for.

[raisethehammer]

something will have to become a BIG issue to get me to vote....there's a first time for everything and this will be my first time not voting.
I'm certain it won't be the last.

[adam]

if you don't vote, then you have no business giving your say on issues at the municipal or federal level.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

if you don't vote, then you have no business giving your say on issues at the municipal or federal level.

lol, that will never happen.

I agree, I've always been of the opinion if you don't vote you can't complain. I missed a provincial election when I was out of the country on a last minute business trip after the advance polls had finished.

My wife reminded me for 4 years every time I started to complain, that I didn't have the right........ and yes, we are still together.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

I'm not sure why it's that significant. Opus Dei is a conservative Catholic ministry that encourages its lay members to do "the work of God" (Opus Dei in English) in their communities - to "find God in daily life" - as opposed to inside a monastery or the Church bureaucracy.

It's decidedly not the nefarious, shadowy cabal depicted in Dan Brown's lumpen "Da Vinci Code".

Its significance lies within the questionable, cult-like practices of the Opus Dei sect. And no, I am not passing judgement based on Dan Brown's works of fiction. Neither am I basing it simply on the practice of corporal mortification. I am basing it on the testimony of its former members and their families. I provide the following link for your perusal:

http://www.odan.org/index.htm

[SteelTown]

Elizabeth May, Green Party, will be on the leaders debate.

[markbarbera]

It appears that Harper, Layton and the media consortium have caved to the strong backlash from the public about their exclusion of Elizabeth May from the leader debates. She is now in.

I am pleased at the reversal. The poorly-thought out position held by Harper and Layton damaged their credibility during the opening days of the campaign and managed to keep both off message. Overnight polls must have clearly indicated a serious voter backlash. The blogs certainly show evidence of this. It will be interesting to see how deeply the damage was done to both their campaigns.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by adam

if you don't vote, then you have no business giving your say on issues at the municipal or federal level.

I don't buy that.
The parties always try to spout nonsense like that to 'guilt' us into feeling we have to vote.
My grandfather and great grandfather fought in both world wars and Korean War. I appreciate our freedom and all they provided for us.
THIS is not what they fought for. I won't let some disgusting, greedy political party shame me into joining their perversion of democracy. It's not a democracy and I think we all know that.
As a taxpayer, my opinion is just as valid as anyone's. I never thought I'd miss a vote, but I also never thought that politics would get so bad.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I don't buy that.
The parties always try to spout nonsense like that to 'guilt' us into feeling we have to vote.
My grandfather and great grandfather fought in both world wars and Korean War. I appreciate our freedom and all they provided for us.
THIS is not what they fought for. I won't let some disgusting, greedy political party shame me into joining their perversion of democracy. It's not a democracy and I think we all know that.
As a taxpayer, my opinion is just as valid as anyone's. I never thought I'd miss a vote, but I also never thought that politics would get so bad.

I agree with Adam, and I'm not a member of any party. There you have it the people (not parties) have spoken.

Sorry about your decision. It will certainly be quiet without your witty reparte.

[raisethehammer]

that's an interesting way to try to censor someone.
If I didn't know any better I'd say you work for FOX "news".
Lol.
Don't worry....I'm not going anywhere....much like Canada.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Elizabeth May, Green Party, will be on the leaders debate.

What I wonder is if the Greens don't win a seat in this election, does that mean they
get excluded from the leaders debate in the next election? Are the Greens even favoured to get an elected seat this time round?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Attacking the US electoral system as a "joke" shows nothing more than a typically inflated attitude of superiority, and perhaps more damningly, a glaring lack of knowledge of their electoral system--which results in Congressional renewal on a rolling 2 year interval. While you may dislike the practices invovled in their campaign process (I suspect) you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater and haven't bothered to pick up a textbook.

Now, getting back on point...the Green/Elizabeth May thing is incredibly frustrating for a number of reasons. Her inclusion doesn't bring clarity, but muddies the water further (I can barely tolerate the inclusion of the BQ which has a significant caucus) and she is, by nature of her backroom deal with Dion, a second Liberal candidate. In the absence of that deal I would still oppose her inclusion on the basis of relevance (lack of), but it would less nauseating (marginally). She and her scattering of supporters have decided she's important enough to be present--a classic case of the squeakly wheel getting oiled--how democratic.

On the Green Shift, I am delighted/amused at the left now advocating taxation based on something other than income. It's blind adherence to a utopian vision of the future by an elite academic who could not be further from the lives of ordinary Canadians--despite well placed video of him in the snow somewhere wearing a North Face jacket. Green Shift will make life a struggle for a vast part of the Canadian population, will drive businesses to close or relocate elsewhere and result in a massive transfer of wealth from Canadian wallets to the treasury.

For those who choose to rattle sabres over the government "letting" C02 emissions increase--perhaps have a look at the track record of the Liberal governments of 1993-2006.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

the Green/Elizabeth May thing is incredibly frustrating for a number of reasons. Her inclusion doesn't bring clarity

The purpose of her inclusion isn't to "bring clarity" but to give voters a chance to see how the leader of the Green Party, which has up to 10 percent support, debates with the leaders of the other parties. Canadians deserve to hear what the Greens have to say about policy.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

she is, by nature of her backroom deal with Dion, a second Liberal candidate.

Nonsense. The "backroom deal" is simply an agreement not to run against each other in their respective leaders' ridings. There's nothing sinister about two parties cooperating where their interests coincide - indeed, in a minority situation that is the very definition of a "functional" parliament. I can certainly see why the NDP doesn't like it - it effectively does an end-run around their bid to be the kingmaker in a minority.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

In the absence of that deal I would still oppose her inclusion on the basis of relevance

They received nearly 5 percent of the popular vote in 2006 and are polling near 10 percent now, with a sitting member of parliament. They're hardly irrelevant, and they might become even more relevant if Canadians actually get to see their leader debate the other party leaders.

If you really believed the Green Party was marginal and irrelevant, you would welcome their inclusion so they can be revealed as such.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

a classic case of the squeaky wheel getting oiled--how democratic.

Yes, it is democratic: over 70% of Canadians believe that May should be included in the debate.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

On the Green Shift, I am delighted/amused at the left now advocating taxation based on something other than income.

Like those crazy utopian Europeans who decided after the 1973 oil crisis to slap big taxes on gasoline consumption? Far from being a disaster, it drove dramatic increases in fuel economy, improvements in automotive technology, improved transit, urban revitalization, and strong economic growth.

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

For those who choose to rattle sabres over the government "letting" C02 emissions increase--perhaps have a look at the track record of the Liberal governments of 1993-2006.

Sorry, but the statute of limitations has expired on that Conservative talking point. Harper promised to be different from the Liberals - he promised that unlike the Liberals, who talked a good game but didn't deliver the goods, he would deliver for Canadians.

That turns out to have been a lot of hot air. Harper had two and a half years to shame the Liberals by delivering a real climate change plan, and instead he delivered an oilsands-friendly policy that actually allows the oil industry to increase their GHG emissions.

When your campaign is based on a promise of ethics and accountability, you're not allowed to justify your lapses by saying the guys you replaced were also bad.

[DC83]

^^ Thanks for clarifying Fastcars' post, Ryan!

The problem is Reformers, err, I mean Conservatives are going around the whole country spreading this same BS and people are actually believing them b/c unfortunately there can't be Ryan Mcgreal's everywhere.

If Reformers (ugh, sorry, Conservatives... I don't know why I keep getting them mixed up!?) were actually able to open their eyes and see past their own self-worth, they'd understand that Democracy means 'power of the people' and not 'power of the indiviual'.

Stephen Harper and his 'Conservatives' don't care about the country, they care about their Party. Their Party's interests do not reflect the vast majority of Canadians'... so why would you vote for them?