Old Halifax

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

In addition to not building enough, the designs for Uniake Square and Mulgrave park isolated inhabitants. The story of Pruitt Igoe (i.e. the "death" of Modernism) has echoes here in these places. I feel like modern ideas about good living were harmful to many forms of social networks...

there were issues, but Halifax examples are much more desirable then the towers in the park of Pruitt Igoe, or even Regent park in Toronto.

Mulgrave park looked pretty nice when it was new. I suspect the rundown appearance is due to lack of maintenance over the years.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Maybe a block by block redevelopment would have been preferable in retrospect, but certainly (and I am even more convinced of this today now that additional pictures have been added to the archive) the majority of the buildings in the area were awful, run-down slums and needed to go. The more you look at the pictures the uglier and more unacceptable those buildings look. Whenever you get a new development of such size you are likely to have a few buildings that are somewhat better than the others that are casualties. I see very few Penn Station quality things in these pics though. Even the Pentagon Building, while somewhat unique, is clearly well past its prime when you look at those pics and in a very problematic spot.

Again, the buildings look shabby in those pictures, but what about these pictures of buildings that are still around? This perspective would look pretty much the same today, with mostly the same buildings, except that instead of looking tired and run-down, the neighbourhood looks freshened and revitalized.



Here's the Old Triangle's building, looking like some kind of run-down vacuum-cleaner storefront.



I think this building was demolished, but the surviving waterfront warehouses were in basically this shape.

.

Much of the city looked just as run-down as what was demolished, and most of it proved to be salvageable.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Maybe a block by block redevelopment would have been preferable in retrospect,

Agreed.

but certainly (and I am even more convinced of this today now that additional pictures have been added to the archive) the majority of the buildings in the area were awful, run-down slums and needed to go. The more you look at the pictures the uglier and more unacceptable those buildings look.

Generally agree, but from what I've seen I'd say "majority" is a bit of a stretch, but there were certainly some bad ones.

Whenever you get a new development of such size you are likely to have a few buildings that are somewhat better than the others that are casualties.

This is true in general. In this case it appears that it was a major upheaval for a mediocre result. Of course this is armchair quarterbacking 'the past' with 20/20 hindsight, but I think I have already covered that in a previous post.

I see very few Penn Station quality things in these pics though. Even the Pentagon Building, while somewhat unique, is clearly well past its prime when you look at those pics and in a very problematic spot.

You've used Penn Station as an example in the past. New York City had Penn Station, Halifax did not have any buildings of that stature, as it was a much smaller city. By your logic all buildings of lesser stature than Penn Station needn't be kept - but I guess that is actually what you think, as I've gathered from your years of posting here.

As far as the Pentagon Building is concerned, it appears that many here and elsewhere think that it was a cool building (in fact I think you even said so in an older post), so I don't have a problem with expressing my thoughts on it. I would love to have seen it preserved and restored.

I don't know where you get your comment about compensation being inadequate. Nobody has mentioned that before. Do you have evidence to back that up?

Perhaps I didn't word it properly. When I said it is not common knowledge, I meant that I don't know and apparently nobody else on this forum knows either.

If you read the city's documents from the time, a building that was designated by the city for destruction was to be demolished within one month of the date of the order, and at the owner's expense. No options were give for repair, renovation nor restoration (not that it was popular at the time). http://www.halifax.ca/Archives/docum...957-09-03A.pdf

I'm not familiar with the terms of compensation - i.e. I've not seen any documentation to support it one way or another. My understanding is that the land would likely be expropriated and the owner paid a sum determined by the city in compensation. If you or somebody else on the forum has any evidence or information, I would be interested in seeing it.

As far as the families who had been evicted and given less than one month to find a new place to live, they obviously weren't compensated. Perhaps one might reason that they were being done a favour by moving them from unacceptable living quarters (of which there would be some truth), but I'm sure it didn't look that way to them when they had few to no alternatives at the time.

That gets to your latter comment about "civil" conversation, derision, and barbs. You have been quick to be critical of me

I hadn't realized that I've been directly critical of you, but please accept my apologies.

but I notice you are a master at making passive-aggressive remarks about others who do not agree with you and making suggestions unsupported by facts that support your position.

Hadn't realized I've been doing that either. Again, my apologies.

Your comments above are a good example of that. When you make a statement that the buildings should have been saved, some people are going to disagree. That is not a barb or being derisive, it is simply a different opinion.

For the sake of full disclosure, my comment was a reaction to ILoveHalifax's post. I should have ignored it and left it alone. Again, my apologies.

You cannot be so thin-skinned on a message board. Ask me how I know.

Been there, done that with you in the past. Not going there again. I would argue that by the tone of your posts that you could fall under the same category, but it's all good. Nobody's perfect.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Again, the buildings look shabby in those pictures, but what about these pictures of buildings that are still around? This perspective would look pretty much the same today, with mostly the same buildings, except that instead of looking tired and run-down, the neighbourhood looks freshened and revitalized.

Is the large brick building in the background the Halifax Armoury? Is that this neighbourhood - https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Hal...!4d-63.5752387? The homes in the very front look like ones along Cogswell between Bauer Street and Maynard Street (here is the Street View) - https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.64985...7i13312!8i6656. What an incredible transformation!

Still, I think Scotia Square would have been a good development if it was divided into about 4 blocks instead of one, and some of the brick heritage buildings were built into the street-fronts with street-level retail. In order to get higher density, multi-level residential was required.

[OldDartmouthMark]

A few other interesting photos from the municipal archives:

The Irving archway at the bottom of Sackville Street:

102-39-1-1361.10 by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

The Esso station at the corner of Robie and Quinpool, where the Atlantica Hotel (former Holiday Inn) is currently:

The Willow Tree by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

A glimpse of the Maritime Life Building (later BMO) where the Doyle is now being built:

Looking north on Queen St. from the corner of Spring Garden Rd. by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

The Halifax Ferry Terminal at the bottom of George Street:

1-9 George St. [and Upper Water St.] by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Buildings at the other side by the ferry terminal. The Fisherman's market is located approximately in the same location as Nova Scotia Crystal is today. I vividly remember the strong smell of fish as soon as you exited the ferry to walk towards George St.:

East-facing view of Lower Water St. at the corner of George St., showing the Dartmouth Ferry dock in the background by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Looking at the same building from the viewpoint of someone walking from the ferry. You can see the old Post Office/Customs building in the background:

102-39-1-189.3 by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Citadel Motors on the corner of Brunswick and Sackville, currently occupied by Cambridge Suites:

Looking south-east from Citadel Hill to the intersection of Brunswick and Sackville Streets by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

A few other interesting photos from the municipal archives:
.
.
.
The Halifax Ferry Terminal at the bottom of George Street:

1-9 George St. [and Upper Water St.] by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

This must have been the ferry terminal that I would have passed through in the early to mid 1970's. It was a rickety old place but it was fun going through and getting the ferry to the other side (I was a fairly young teenager with a part-time job in the city, so I had a real sense of adventure).

Looking at the same building from the viewpoint of someone walking from the ferry. You can see the old Post Office/Customs building in the background:

102-39-1-189.3 by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Every time I see the Customs Building in the front of the picture (with the clock tower), I think what an incredible building this was and wonder why someone didn't try to save it; probably the federal government decided to tear it down and went ahead before anyone had time to oppose its destruction. I guess the federal government had the newer Dominion Building adjacent to it, and decided that it was redundant .

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Is the large brick building in the background the Halifax Armoury?... The homes in the very front look like ones along Cogswell between Bauer Street and Maynard Street (here is the Street View) -

Yep, same. I was a little uncertain about the houses on Cogswell,because they've lost a bit of detail over the years, but the one on the right is exactly the same, right down to the placement of the windows. Only change is the loss of a pretty fancy window on the solarium extension. The duplex on the left side has undergone a kind of weird, character-depriving renovation, but it's the same building, and in better shape today.

That picture is interesting too because the light-coloured building in from of the armoury is this one, which means the shabby-looking ones on the far left, right in front of the armoury, is now this, which is not so much a restoration as a reinvention of the building. I wasn't sure at first, but the roofline on the east and west sides of the apartment building match--a peak on the west side and a flat roof on the east.

Anyway, interesting to see how much the neighbourhood has changed, without really changing at all.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think this building was demolished, but the surviving waterfront warehouses were in basically this shape.

.

Much of the city looked just as run-down as what was demolished, and most of it proved to be salvageable.

Actually that building is the Lower Deck (assuming it's the one you were talking about); it's an example of something that was salvageable that most people like today. It was built in the 1790's. There are few buildings like it anywhere in Canada.

The waterfront buildings that did survive are maybe 1/3 of the original 18th/early 19th century masonry stuff. I'm not sure if this appears in any of the municipal archive photos but here's the Cunard wharf. It was demolished sometime in the 20th century:


http://parkscanadahistory.com/series/chs/9/chs9-3a.htm

It's like a hybrid of the Keith brewery and Morse's Teas, and was just as historically important for its association with the Cunard line. The archway probably led to a waterfront courtyard. There were quite a few of these buildings.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This must have been the ferry terminal that I would have passed through in the early to mid 1970's. It was a rickety old place but it was fun going through and getting the ferry to the other side (I was a fairly young teenager with a part-time job in the city, so I had a real sense of adventure).

Yep, same one. The current terminals were built to accomodate the new boats that were started around '79-'80-ish.

Every time I see the Customs Building in the front of the picture (with the clock tower), I think what an incredible building this was and wonder why someone didn't try to save it; probably the federal government decided to tear it down and went ahead before anyone had time to oppose its destruction. I guess the federal government had the newer Dominion Building adjacent to it, and decided that it was redundant .

I agree wholeheartedly! That building would be a real asset to our downtown if it still existed.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Yep, same. I was a little uncertain about the houses on Cogswell,because they've lost a bit of detail over the years, but the one on the right is exactly the same, right down to the placement of the windows. Only change is the loss of a pretty fancy window on the solarium extension. The duplex on the left side has undergone a kind of weird, character-depriving renovation, but it's the same building, and in better shape today.

That picture is interesting too because the light-coloured building in from of the armoury is this one, which means the shabby-looking ones on the far left, right in front of the armoury, is now this, which is not so much a restoration as a reinvention of the building. I wasn't sure at first, but the roofline on the east and west sides of the apartment building match--a peak on the west side and a flat roof on the east.

Anyway, interesting to see how much the neighbourhood has changed, without really changing at all.

Thanks Drybrain for this research; it is really fascinating how this neighbourhood went from looking rather rundown in 1964, to being an upscale neighbourhood.

It is also interesting how the light colored, industrial looking building in front of the Armoury is now a decent looking, red brick apartment building (?). The brick must have been painted prior to the 1964 photo.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Every time I see the Customs Building in the front of the picture (with the clock tower), I think what an incredible building this was and wonder why someone didn't try to save it; probably the federal government decided to tear it down and went ahead before anyone had time to oppose its destruction. I guess the federal government had the newer Dominion Building adjacent to it, and decided that it was redundant .

Looking at the pic it has a wooden galley built over the sidewalk in front. I suspect the stone was failing and falling on pedestrians, like that on the Armouries has been doing for some time with a similar end product. One hopes the solution to the Armouries problem will be successful, but it undoubtedly will be very expensive. I suspect the Customs House building was redundant given the changes in passenger and freight transport and not deemed worthy of investment given the new Ralston Building just opened down the street.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Actually that building is the Lower Deck (assuming it's the one you were talking about); it's an example of something that was salvageable that most people like today. It was built in the 1790's. There are few buildings like it anywhere in Canada.

The waterfront buildings that did survive are maybe 1/3 of the original 18th/early 19th century masonry stuff. I'm not sure if this appears in any of the municipal archive photos but here's the Cunard wharf. It was demolished sometime in the 20th century:


http://parkscanadahistory.com/series/chs/9/chs9-3a.htm

It's like a hybrid of the Keith brewery and Morse's Teas, and was just as historically important for its association with the Cunard line. The archway probably led to a waterfront courtyard. There were quite a few of these buildings.

On the Municipal Archives site, there are photos of a few similar stone/masonry buildings that were located in the Marriott Harbourfront/Purdy's Wharf parkade/Casino Nova Scotia area that would appear to have been salvageable. Looks like Pickford & Black, Collins' Bank and warehouse, and the Simon's building, from the Parks Canada site you linked to, plus a couple more I can't identify.

1959-1969 Upper Water St., looking north-east from Belle Lane by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

James Simmond's Ltd., 1855 Upper Water St., looking north-east by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Joseph Simon's building, north end of [Upper] Water St., looking east by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Joseph Simon's building, north end of [Upper] Water St., looking north east by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Demolition of the Central Victualling Depot (HMC Dockyard), [1895] Upper Water St. by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

The Maritime Museum of Canada, also the R.C.N. victualation [sic] depot, foot of Buckingham St. and Water St., showing the west wall. by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr (in the background)

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

Actually that building is the Lower Deck (assuming it's the one you were talking about); it's an example of something that was salvageable that most people like today. It was built in the 1790's. There are few buildings like it anywhere in Canada.

Oh, I thought this was further north on Water. Today's roofline is different, but on closer inspection, it does meet the adjacent wooden building identically, so yeah. Seems you're right.

That Cunard Wharf would've been nice to keep around.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Looking at the pic it has a wooden galley built over the sidewalk in front. I suspect the stone was failing and falling on pedestrians, like that on the Armouries has been doing for some time with a similar end product. One hopes the solution to the Armouries problem will be successful, but it undoubtedly will be very expensive. I suspect the Customs House building was redundant given the changes in passenger and freight transport and not deemed worthy of investment given the new Ralston Building just opened down the street.

Good observation about the wooden covering in front. You are probably right.

Still, what a loss; this building looks like a work of art, and if it still stood today would have been a great addition to the AGNS with a pedway between them.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

On the Municipal Archives site, there are photos of a few similar stone/masonry buildings that were located in the Marriott Harbourfront/Purdy's Wharf parkade/Casino Nova Scotia area that would appear to have been salvageable.

The question is not whether they were physically salvageable but whether they were economically salvageable for profitable reuse. You mention the site of the Marriott Hotel and the Casino. No idea if those venues were thought of exactly in those terms back at the time, but lets assume something similar was foreseen. I do not see how these buildings could be practically repurposed for such a use. And do we really need a harbourfront full of old warehouses repurposed to beer halls and souvenir shops? We have some of those and they are nice enough, but The Brewery market has always struggled and Historic Properties has also struggled to find customers outside of 3 months in the summertime.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The question is not whether they were physically salvageable but whether they were economically salvageable for profitable reuse. You mention the site of the Marriott Hotel and the Casino. No idea if those venues were thought of exactly in those terms back at the time, but lets assume something similar was foreseen. I do not see how these buildings could be practically repurposed for such a use. And do we really need a harbourfront full of old warehouses repurposed to beer halls and souvenir shops? We have some of those and they are nice enough, but The Brewery market has always struggled and Historic Properties has also struggled to find customers outside of 3 months in the summertime.

You always make good points about the economic viability of such projects. It's important to keep this in perspective when viewing such photos and considering the loss of history.

A person like myself would want buildings like these saved, taking into consideration the craftsmanship involved, their historical significance, and the fact that they were built to last hundreds of years or perhaps longer (one only has to look as far as some European cities to see buildings in use that are much older than any of these).

But, you are correct, if they aren't economically viable, then it would be up to the taxpayer to subsidize them or pay for them completely. And, we would likely be stuck with a bunch of buildings that have no real purpose, other than to exist as artifacts of Halifax's waterfront history.

Thanks for the perspective, as your vision has much more to do with the reality of the situation than mine.

[OldDartmouthMark]

There's no doubt that downtown Halifax had its seedier side back then.

Here are a couple of spots where you could go for a beer and a brawl I'm sure...

Ocean Tavern, 11-13 Upper Water St. by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Hollis Tavern and Reliable Dry Cleaners, 110-116 Hollis St. by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The question is not whether they were physically salvageable but whether they were economically salvageable for profitable reuse. You mention the site of the Marriott Hotel and the Casino. No idea if those venues were thought of exactly in those terms back at the time, but lets assume something similar was foreseen. I do not see how these buildings could be practically repurposed for such a use. And do we really need a harbourfront full of old warehouses repurposed to beer halls and souvenir shops? We have some of those and they are nice enough, but The Brewery market has always struggled and Historic Properties has also struggled to find customers outside of 3 months in the summertime.

That has as much to do with mediocre management and a bad location as anything else. I don't think the district's problems have anything to do with the buildings. Scotia Square is one-quarter the age, and just as mediocre from a retail perspective.

Look at the Distillery District in Toronto. Massively profitable and successful historic-district redevelopment, but more upscale and much better managed.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

That has as much to do with mediocre management and a bad location as anything else. I don't think the district's problems have anything to do with the buildings. Scotia Square is one-quarter the age, and just as mediocre from a retail perspective.

Look at the Distillery District in Toronto. Massively profitable and successful historic-district redevelopment, but more upscale and much better managed.

That is a good point. One could argue that a hotel, office towers, a casino and 2 parkades could have been built anywhere and aren't necessarily the best use of waterfront properties. If the vision was in place to create something in line with a Distillery District or a Gastown then potentially those buildings, had they been kept, could have been real assets to create a similar district that is uniquely Halifax. For that matter, most of the Ordnance Yard property could have been used for a hotel in a different configuration than what we currently have.

As much as I like the look of the Purdy's Wharf complex, it is really uninviting to the public and has helped to create a dead zone along the waterfront - after all they are just office towers that are occupied during weekdays and are closed up on nights and weekends. Based on pedestrian traffic that I've seen in the summer, to most people the waterfront stops at Historic Properties. Had those buildings been kept and reimagined, this would not be the case.

If a casino is thought to be a good use of waterfront space - I'm not so sure it is - then perhaps the buildings could have been incorporated into a larger complex that contained a casino, a hotel, restaurants, shops and pubs. One doesn't have to use too much imagination to see how that could happen.

Keith's points are valid, but perhaps not the only way to look at it. In the end, though, this is all speculation and would have been dependent on a number of things such as good management and somebody in planning/government/development with a vision of how to make it the best it could be while also being profitable. It would have been a large financial gamble, though, and I can appreciate that.

We can't change the past, and perhaps it's a little depressing to think too much about the loss and what could have been, but it is an interesting exercise nonetheless.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Agreed.

I'm not familiar with the terms of compensation - i.e. I've not seen any documentation to support it one way or another. My understanding is that the land would likely be expropriated and the owner paid a sum determined by the city in compensation. If you or somebody else on the forum has any evidence or information, I would be interested in seeing it.

i cant speak to "substandard properties" elsewhere, but when land was expropriated in the defined re-development areas, or even properties adjacent to those areas, fair compensation was paid, and demolition tenders were put out and awarded by council. So property owners on the periphery of the area also offered their properties for sale to the city, simply to not have to worry about being in the next round.