NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[C.]

Originally Posted by NYer34

The "blightedness" of this area is highly, highly exaggerated.

This is a thriving, busy area. There's little vacancy (compare it to Madison btw 60th and 90th! how's that for blighted?). It's bustling. There are some homely buildings - but there are also gems like Napoleon LeBrun's Church of St. John the Baptist, one of the most beautiful churches in the city.

One of the most "blighted" strips has recently been razed and is being redeveloped (34th right off 8th). The biggest landholder in the area is Vornado, which intentionally underinvests in its buildings for years and years (sometimes decades) to then tear them down and - in many cases - walk away from the tear-down (look at what it did to the historic Filene's Building in Boston).

Right now, Vornado is intentionally turning the historic and once world-famous Hotel Pennsylvania into a dump ... so it can claim the area is "blighted."

I'd support a designation that forcibly takes all the land in the area away from Vornado, the creator of whatever "blight" there is. Would Cuomo's bill do this? NO! This is mind-numbing - it would actually give Vornado more land, more power.

This is a pretty sick and starch display of cronyism and borderline corruption: A developer chronically and consciously turns its holdings to crap to get the in-cahoots state to call the area blighted, and give more real estate to the source of blight. This is worth getting mad at.

I agree with you to a point, but what's a legal solution? Are you seriously suggesting New York State government spend billions on Eminent Domain just to seize Vornado's properties without a clear and compelling public purpose? That's a non-starter. I believe a large part of this is the unintended consequences of NYC's zoning. Let's assume everything you said is true. Vornado wouldn't have to intentionally turn its properties into a dump so they can be declared blighted and demolished if there was other development sites that could be redeveloped at greater densities to meet the real estate needs in Manhattan.

Right now zoning encourages the demolition of buildings like the Penn Hotel because it has the development rights to build a much more profitable building. At a minimum, NYC should have an easy process that encourages Transferable Development Rights from an older building like the Penn hotel to any parking lot or underutilized land, with a further incentive to use a part of that revenue to renovate and preserve the older building.

Developers need to also be at the table when discussing what works if the goal is to preserve older buildings from razing. Instead, we have city planners that think they know it all that write these zoning regulations that are resulting in really crappy outcomes.

[Amanita]

Something that occurred to me- a lot of the businesses in that area -One Penn's retail tenants, the restaurants in the area, the stores- those are (at least the vast majority of them) places that serve the working class people of the neighborhood. Security guards, building cleaners, hotel staff, parking garage attendants, etc. Do we really want to get rid of all of those, replacing affordable shopping and eating with nothing but luxury goods and restaurants where even a simple meal can cost $20-30? I'm sure some people would see it as a good thing, but to working class people in the area, it wouldn't be so hot. It might even harm them to some extent. (Having affordable food and shopping in the neighborhood they work in is a real boost to quality of life)

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by jbermingham123

When I become king of the world the first thing I'm going to do is move the Javits to Sunnyside yards and move MSG to where the Javits is.

Cuomo had an idea for moving the Javits to Queens a few years ago, but that was dropped in favor of expansion.

Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000

A real possibility is MSG stays, The Theater at Madison Square Garden is demolished (marked Forum/Forum Lobby below facing 8th Ave), and the removal of that sort of underbelly of MSG facing 8th Ave allows the construction of the renderings below.

That's part of the plan, and if you look at Penn Station/MSG across the street from Farley, it's not a pretty sight. But the plan is to create something more or less more pleasing to the eye, and opening Penn Station to daylight. It's why that JDS proposal was basically what Cuomo called for.




https://newyorkyimby.com/2016/01/1809506.html




http://jdsdevelopment.com/empire-station-proposal/

Originally Posted by Amanita

Something that occurred to me- a lot of the businesses in that area -One Penn's retail tenants, the restaurants in the area, the stores- those are (at least the vast majority of them) places that serve the working class people of the neighborhood.

Sorry, but those are going to go whether or not Vornado does anything now or not. They've just been in a holding pattern, sort of like 15 Penn until Vornado can act. It's better than having vacant storefronts. But just walk around the area, up 8th and 7th, and you will see that the type of stores you are talking about are closing and being replaced with more upscale stores or none at all. The area is changing, and that process has already begun. But the blocks immediately surrounding the most heavily populated transit center in the hemisphere can (and should) do much better than a location for just retail. There should be as much density there as possible, and that means tall and large skyscrapers. Of course, you can and should have retail at the ground level, but what type of retail that may be doesn't take precedent here.

[NYguy]

Steve Cuozzo's absurd commentary. He's obviously serving as somebody's mouthpiece.


https://nypost.com/2018/04/05/beware...a-live-threat/

Beware: Cuomo’s Penn Station power play is still a live threat


By Steve Cuozzo
April 5, 2018

Be afraid, be very afraid, of Gov. Cuomo’s ambition to wrest control of planning authority for the Penn Station area from City Hall — despite his pretending to have backed off from it.

...Cuomo’s notion to promote large-scale office development to help pay for a new Penn Station is absurd in a district where there’s zero demand for new office towers.

In fact, the “Pennsylvania Station Public Safety Improvement Act” tucked into the budget made it clear that Cuomo has hardly given up. Making unspecified changes to the station “is a major objective for the state to resolve and should be made a top priority,” it said.

Sure, it said the state “should coordinate and consult” with the community, business groups and federal and city government. But it also said, ominously, “the state will provide funds to UDC [Urban Development Corp., the legal name for the ESDC] to begin with the planning of any such redevelopment.”

That automatically puts Albany in the driver’s seat, because ESDC has all the authority it needs to run roughshod over the city and local businesses. It can buy out owners of “blighted” (a highly subjective term) properties and demolish them. It can hand out tax breaks to developers willing to play ball.

https://www.cityandstateny.com/artic...good-idea.html

New skyscrapers near Penn Station are a good idea
It's the ideal way to finance the station's reconstruction.

By JONATHAN ENGLISH
APRIL 4, 2018

In most cities, a politician fearing the transformation of a neighborhood into a forest of skyscrapers would describe it as being turned into Manhattan. That convenient metaphor was unavailable to New York state Sen. Liz Krueger, however, when she wanted to inveigh against legislative proposal from Gov. Andrew Cuomo that, in an early version, would have enabled the state to take over the planning of redevelopment around Penn Station, bypassing municipal control entirely.

So instead Krueger said, rather confusingly, “I don’t want Singapore in the middle of Manhattan. And I certainly don’t want one person up here to be deciding whether or not we’re going to have Singapore in the middle of Manhattan with no community participation or process or local government role.”

The law will facilitate a potential eminent domain claim against Madison Square Garden, strengthening the state’s hand in negotiations over the acquisition of the 5,600-seat Hulu Theater beneath the main arena. Cuomo wants to use the theater area for a new grand entrance to the station on Eighth Avenue, as part of a larger renovation. The governor says that such a claim will not likely be necessary, but it provides additional leverage in bargaining.

Krueger and other critics of the legislation are right to suspect that Cuomo wants to build more skyscrapers around Penn Station, and their concerns about eliminating avenues for local input are well-grounded, but they are wrong to oppose significant new development. New York City needs more offices, hotels and housing; the city’s centrally-located regional transit hub is exactly where they should go. The real risk is not that too many tall buildings will go up, but that Cuomo’s desire for a monument to his achievement will overshadow the more important work of making Penn Station function better for daily riders.

A decade ago, many locals were wary of large-scale development in the area. Preservationists were concerned about the loss of the historic Pennsylvania Hotel for a new skyscraper. Others lamented the interference with the city’s existing skyline.

The inclusion of Steven Roth, Vornado’s chairman, on Cuomo’s committee for planning the rebuilding of Penn Station is also a sign that a larger real estate development project may be in the works.

Cuomo’s legislative proposal may have tipped his hand, indicating that another large-scale redevelopment plan is in the works. If the state is able to develop a good plan for upgrading the station, including necessary operating improvements, selling air rights may be able to help pay for it. Transit riders can hope that this renewed planning will bring about the operational improvements that the station desperately requires – and they should not worry if the city gets a few new skyscrapers in the bargain.

[NYguy]

Older pic, but this is basically the 8th Ave side of MSG/Penn...


Simon Abrams

[C.]

...Cuomo’s notion to promote large-scale office development to help pay for a new Penn Station is absurd in a district where there’s zero demand for new office towers.

Bid out the land and allow any use or combination (office, residential, hotel, commercial, retail) and please tell me there's zero demand. Hahaha.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by CIA

Bid out the land and allow any use or combination (office, residential, hotel, commercial, retail) and please tell me there's zero demand. Hahaha.

Yeah, that was a ridiculous quote, the second piece he's written in a week against the proposal. That's how you know he's serving as somebody's mouthpiece. Were there numerous companies looking to jump over to the vast wasteland of Manhattan's westside? No. But proper zoning, and a single subway line unleashed it. Not to mention developers who were willing and able to build. And Related couldn't just build one tower alone over there to attract anything, the entire area had to get a critical mass of development for it to work. There's no way Time Warner is moving over there without it.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by NYguy

I wonder if Cuomo's proposal will include a return of this proposal for 2 Penn...it would have lifted a max FAR cap on the site.

Can't say that I am shocked.




https://therealdeal.com/2018/04/09/v...r-giant-tower/

Vornado considers tearing down 2 Penn to make way for giant tower
Steve Roth says REIT has grand plan for Penn Plaza "Promised Land"


By Kathryn Brenzel
April 09, 2018

In his annual letter to investors, Vornado Realty Trust CEO Steve Roth said the company is considering razing 2 Penn Plaza to make way for a new building that would double the current tower’s footprint.

By demolishing the 1.6-million-square-foot tower, Vornado would potentially be able to transfer some of the 5 million square feet of air rights at Madison Square Garden, which the real estate investment trust co-owns with the Dolan family. Some of the air rights could be “sprinkled to adjacent sites,” Roth noted, but the intention seems to be to create massive new development.

“The old 2 Penn has a 60,000 square foot footprint, the new [one] would have a 120,000 square foot-plus footprint at the base, perfect for our creative class tenants,” Roth said. “There would be towers above and a significant retail component below sandwiched between the train station and the office base.”

Unlocking those air rights would require the redevelopment of Penn Station.

[NYguy]

https://commercialobserver.com/2018/...-plaza-towers/

BY REBECCA BAIRD-REMBA
APRIL 6, 2018

Two Penn Plaza—which is already set to be redeveloped—could be razed for an entirely new building, Roth noted. If Vornado knocked down the 1.6-million-square-foot office tower, it could tap into property’s potential 1.6 million square feet of air rights, as well as 5 million square feet of air rights that it owns on the nearby Madison Square Garden site. That extra floor area could go toward a new Penn Plaza tower, plus adjacent sites like the Hotel Pennsylvania. The company’s master plan includes three to five new developments on its Penn Plaza properties.

[NYguy]

Quotes from Steven Roth...

[chris08876]

A lot of potential:


Sony Alpha a7 III ILCE‑7M3 by Emil abu Milad, on Flickr

[Amanita]

^Not even gonna lie, that's one gorgeous pic!

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by Amanita

^Not even gonna lie, that's one gorgeous pic!

It is. But when you look at it, makes you kind of want a nicer arena (at least IMO). I know some are MSG fans, but it needs a revamp ASAP. Its a blight on what will overtime be a very nice district.

[Amanita]

So One Penn's gonna get an upgrade (Not sure what kind, nowhere near as dramatic as what was originally proposed for Two Penn), and the fate of Two Penn, MSG, and Hotel Pennsylvania are all kind of up in the air right now. One Penn's one of the nicer buildings in the area, I've met management and they are genuinely proud of their building.

[NYguy]

One Penn is definitely getting that upgrade. About the Hotel Penn, not sure what that hotel/entertainment idea is about. But there is the matter of the development rights that were transferred there from the Manhattan Mall. I would assume if those rights weren't used on the Hotel Penn site, they would go to the block north, which is mostly lowrise retail.

[Amanita]

What were they planning to do to One Penn again? I don't think they had anything as drastic as a reclad planned for it, but it's most assuredly one of their most profitable buildings, or so I've heard.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Amanita

What were they planning to do to One Penn again? I don't think they had anything as drastic as a reclad planned for it, but it's most assuredly one of their most profitable buildings, or so I've heard.

https://commercialobserver.com/2018/...n-real-estate/

Vornado’s plans for 1 Penn, while yet to commence, have come more clearly into focus recently. The company intends to start work on renovating the imposing 1972 skyscraper—which will be rebranded as Penn 1—in the second half of this year, and plans to spend around $200 million on the project, per its investor presentations. The work is expected to yield upgraded lobby entrances and new tenant amenity spaces and elevators, as well as improvements to the surrounding retail storefronts and public plazas and a renovated entrance for the building’s underground connection to Penn Station.

Compared to average in-place office rents of $64 per square foot, Vornado hopes to command average rents of $84 per square foot upon redeveloping 1 Penn Plaza—a jump that would boost the building’s net operating income by $48 million, as noted in investor presentations. Rents in the mid-$80s, according to the REIT, would still be well below the $110 per square foot average asking rents seen at Hudson Yards several blocks west—a figure that would both justify the higher asks at the renovated Penn 1 while also positioning it as a more affordable alternative in the booming West Side office market.

[Amanita]

So no reclad or anything too crazy. I hope they fix those signs on the roof though, some of the neon tubes on those haven't worked right in years. Maybe an LED upgrade, perhaps. I'll be interested to see renderings!
I'm kinda meh on the name change though.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Amanita

So no reclad or anything too crazy.

I wouldn't rule it out.

[Prezrezc]

Not to worry if it comes to that.

I've seen plenty of examples wherein reclads that call for retaining the original "feel" of the building (E.g. First Canadian in TO, UN Secretariat) actually work out better than the original.