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  #81  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 3:21 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
^Thats missing the point entirely. No one is saying Illegals are great, its that the system sucks and creates a situation where people have to come illegally.
No. They don't "have to come illegally". They can do it the legal way like most of our immigrants do.

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Welp when you've worked with Law Enforcement Officers for months at a time on various projects you can really be let down in how sleezy a lot of them are.
This is a hypocritical statement. Everybody, yourself included, hates it when people make ignorant stereotype generalizations, yet here you are doing it against our highly trained law enforcement officers and agents, who must go through a stringent application process of background, polygraph, psych test, PPT, financial checks, education requirements (for higher ups)...etc
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  #82  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
Im not going to have a grown up discussion with someone who acts like a child. Both you and hoover have been warned, stop the personal attacks.
Agreed, it's why I've stayed out of this thread for the most part. Leo the Dog is pretty much the only one posting actively in this thread not throwing a tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
The difference puts undocumented immigrants in a lower tax bracket, thus reducing the amount of federal and state income taxes generated.
I don't dispute that immigrants, particularly non-English speaking immigrants (both legal and illegal), specifically their children (who are probably citizens thanks to the 14th ammendment, good luck getting that overturned) cost our state a lot of money. As I recall, about half of our state's budget goes into education, and I am sure that a substantial amount of that goes to ELL programs. However, studies like this one from the CBO are effectively useless in determining the true cost of illegal immigrants if they are only counting income taxes. State and local taxes in Arizona are all about sales tax, which is only related to income in that people who make less probably buy less. Find a study that looks at the costs of illegal immigration v all the taxes they generate and I'll be a lot more convinced.
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  #83  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
No. They don't "have to come illegally". They can do it the legal way like most of our immigrants do.
It is extremely difficult, if not impossible for poor Mexicans to migrate to this country legally. Until that changes we are going to have problems with illegal immigration. The best law enforcement will be able to do is slow it down, make it as dangerous as possible for potential migrants, and alienate them as far from society as possible. Prohibition didn't work out terribly well either.

I'm all for enforcing our immigration laws in a reasonable way at the federal level, but we need to fix the system before we can start enforcing the laws.

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This is a hypocritical statement. Everybody, yourself included, hates it when people make ignorant stereotype generalizations, yet here you are doing it against our highly trained law enforcement officers and agents, who must go through a stringent application process of background, polygraph, psych test, PPT, financial checks, education requirements (for higher ups)...etc
How do you expect them to enforce the law then? How do you identify an illegal immigrant without racially profiling?
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  #84  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 3:50 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by mwadswor View Post
How do you expect them to enforce the law then? How do you identify an illegal immigrant without racially profiling?
I had no idea that illegal immigrant was a race. For one, immigrants are of every race, and yes, this includes Mexicans. People in AZ just think that they are the stereotypical mestizo. Not so.

One must have committed a crime in the first place to even be asked of their status. It is pretty easy, one commits a crime, if they don't speak the language, do not have ID, their story doesn't add up/conflicting information, have no way of proving who they say they are, then they deserve to be detained until we do find out who they are.

This happens to American citizens. This is how we catch fugitives. Most criminals wanted for other crimes are initially found and arrested for minor infractions.

We rely on local law enforcement jurisdictions everyday to enforce all laws, local and federal. States enforce federal drug laws. So this issue of states enforcing federal laws isn't the case, thats politicians playing politics.

The Federal Gov't relies on local jurisdictions to arrest, process and incarcerate criminals regardless of the crime and if they are determined to be in the country illegally, they are then turned over to the Feds. The Feds then (supposed to) reimburse the locality for costs.
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  #85  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:01 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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I ordered some new bumper stickers over the weekend. One of them reads "This white person will not cooperate with local police regarding immigration status or questions." Another reads "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." I will add these to my equality stickers and of course my crazy "Warp 7"... license plate. Let the festivities begin...

The more knee-jerk and reactionary Arizona appears to the rest of the world, the worse our economy is going to become. I'm contemplating moving to another state anyway, partly because of horseshit like this and partly because Arizona's character and fitness process is absurdly draconian because the state bar here thinks their shit doesn't stink. I would have an easier time in Texas, California or Nevada.

*shrugs*

Let the tyranny of the majority run rampant in Arizona. They deserve whatever they end up with.

--don
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  #86  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:02 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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I'm an illegal immigrant, there I said it.

C'mon guys, I know "illegal immigrant" is not a race, but do you really believe anyone will be "suspected" who isn't brown?
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  #87  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 4:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
I had no idea that illegal immigrant was a race. For one, immigrants are of every race, and yes, this includes Mexicans. People in AZ just think that they are the stereotypical mestizo. Not so.
No kidding illigal immigrant isn't a race. Personally, I know more Canadian and English nationals than Mexican nationals residing in the US. That's precisely why the racial profiling that's going to happen as a result of this law is so particularly wrong headed. You can't honestly tell me you don't think race is going to be a factor though. Pulling over hispanics with a chip in their windshield or who "swerve" coming around a corner is MCSO's specialty. Why don't they ever run crime suppression sweeps in Ahwatukee or North Scottsdale?

Quote:
One must have committed a crime in the first place to even be asked of their status. It is pretty easy, one commits a crime, if they don't speak the language, do not have ID, their story doesn't add up/conflicting information, have no way of proving who they say they are, then they deserve to be detained until we do find out who they are.
Detaining someone for not speaking english is dsicrimination and racial profiling. There is no English only clause anywhere in the US constitution, and plenty of immigrants in this country speak English just fine. If you're detaining someone for not identifying themselves, what does that have to do with immigration law? There are plenty of legally valid IDs you could be carrying that are not proof of legal immigration status in this country. Same question, how do you identify an illegal immigrant (not just someone who doesn't want to provide any form of ID) without racially profiling?

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We rely on local law enforcement jurisdictions everyday to enforce all laws, local and federal. States enforce federal drug laws. So this issue of states enforcing federal laws isn't the case, thats politicians playing politics.
If that's true, then what's the point of SB 1070 in the first place? If MCSO can continue operations as normal without their agreement with ICE, why does this law need to be passed in the first place?

(hint: it's not true. The vast majority of laws that involve law enforcement are state laws, not federal laws. States do not enforce federal drug law, they enforce state drug laws, and federal organizations like the FBI and DEA enforce federal laws. The difference with immigration law is that immigration law is a power reserved for the federal government by tradition and the constitution.)
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  #88  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 6:07 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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See, the problem here is that most conservatives that support this bill think the "ends justifies the means."

The problem is two-fold:

1. You are giving the government, particularly law enforcement, more power. This is generally a bad idea. It was not but a generation or two ago that cops used to beat people with rubber hoses to extract confessions. I've known many cops (my ex's brother was a cop in Rochester, NY) and while quite a few are good upstanding people that try to do the right thing, too many get so jaded that they start thinking the same way ("the ends justifies the means") and the end result is you end up with gross violations of power. My ex's brother is one of the most racist people I know. He's a nice guy but years of seeing blacks commit most of the crimes in an inner city like Rochester has colored (pun intended) his vision. Many cops like him even use euphemisms, for example black people are called "Canadians" to avoid triggering charges of racial discrimination. Look at the Rodney King incident. That was less than 20 years ago. It triggered riots and millions of dollars in damage.

The justice court judge I clerked for in Yavapai County after my first year of law school was a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately, most judges are not like him. My judge was a fair and decent man, and he knew which cops could be trusted and which ones were "exaggerators," to put it mildly. For far too many cops, the key is to win at all costs. I've seen them lie many times on the stand, just to try and win their case. When you authorize people sworn to uphold the law and the Constitution to lie, you open up a monstrous pandora's box that can never be closed. Ever heard of the "thin blue line?" It's true - cops will generally lie to cover up bad acts of another cop. After all, it's just some perp we are talking about, and hey! The ends justifies the means. It's expedient.

2. It tramples all over a little document called the Constitution of the United States. For example, nowhere in the bill of rights does it state that these rights are ONLY available to U.S. citizens. That's because they are considered basic human rights that all people possess, regardless of your legal status. Once we start deciding who gets and who does not get these basic human rights, then we find ourselves on a really slippery slope.

Think of it this way: right now there's tremendous political pressure for prosecutors and politicians to appear "tough on crime." This, despite the fact that crime rates have been falling in the U.S. for the last decade. Homicides are down by 40% in Phoenix alone, but because of the "forensic journalism" that the media fosters "if it bleeds, it leads," most Americans would never know this. They think they are under siege, and as Mr. Goebbels advised Hitler prior to World War II, if you tell the people they are under attack, they become easier to manipulate, and you can get them to go along with anything you want to do. This philosophy permitted Kristallnacht to take place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

We laugh and think these sorts of things cannot happen here, but this bill could be the first step to creating a real police state. Once the state has these powers, they will NEVER give them up voluntarily. I have read this bill in great detail. This bill makes it a crime to be in Arizona "illegally." That means that there is no longer any need for a pretext stop, as many supports seem to think. If a cop "suspects" you may be here illegally, they can stop you for interrogation. There is no need for the "light broken bullshit pretext stop." Your mere presence, and his suspicion you might be illegal, is all it takes. AND, to avoid allegations of racial profiling, they will have to do this to EVERYONE they encounter for any reason. I for one refuse to cooperate with this horseshit seizure of power. A cop encoutering me will get my driver's license and nothing else. I will not answer ANY questions about where I work, where I am going and what I am doing, because this is NONE of the government's goddamn business. If he wants to arrest me, I will then sue and tie them up in court for years with litigation. If enough people think like me and resist this power grab by the government, the judicial system will collapse. Think about it...I will waste a cop's time for five hours while he tries to arrest and investigate me. Time that should have been used stopping armed robbers, thieves and other real criminals, just to enforce SB 1070. This is the disaster that Arizona has created, and I hope anarchy ensues as a result of this stupidity. When the people vote to sacrifice liberty for perceived security, they deserve NOTHING.

--don
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  #89  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 8:31 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Don, what makes you feel as though Arizona isn't a police state already!?
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  #90  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 8:39 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
One must have committed a crime in the first place to even be asked of their status.

This happens to American citizens. This is how we catch fugitives. Most criminals wanted for other crimes are initially found and arrested for minor infractions.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl....html#comments

Quote:
Traffic stop leads Phoenix police to house full of drugs, guns

by Weston Phippen - May. 11, 2010 11:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

A traffic-stop early this week led Phoenix authorities to a house full of cocaine, heroine, marijuana, cash and assault rifles.

Authorities pulled over a vehicle with two men in it near Peoria and Grand avenues in Peoria on Sunday. After a search, authorities found cocaine inside. Police also found a truck rental agreement with a home address near Dunlap Road and Seventh Street listed, Detective James Holmes said.

Phoenix police got a search warrant to investigate the house and soon found 2 pounds of cocaine, about 13 pounds of heroin, marijuana, assault rifles, hand guns, ammunition and thousands of dollars in cash, Holmes said.

Rogelio Flores, 20, and Juan Perez-Castro, 26, were both arrested on suspicion of possession of dangerous drugs.
We they a victim of racial profiling too? This is how law enforcement operates and nabs many criminals.
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  #91  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 9:48 PM
azliam azliam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl....html#comments



We they a victim of racial profiling too? This is how law enforcement operates and nabs many criminals.
It doesn't surprise me what the media picks and chooses to print...here's a more complete account from the ABC15 website. It says that "Phoenix police say officers stopped a vehicle near 58th and Grand avenues for a minor violation... and after getting permission to search the vehicle found a "significant" amount of cocaine and a rental agreement for a truck in the 10,000 block of N. 7th Street."

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/ph...Jxielyw6A.cspx
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  #92  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 9:59 PM
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http://www.azcentral.com/community/t...y-members.html

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ASU president says immigration law deterring potential faculty members

by Luci Scott - May. 11, 2010 11:47 AM
The Arizona Republic

ASU President Michael Crow said today the university has lost an estimated 15 to 20 faculty applicants because of the state's new immigration law.

"Candidates for positions have dropped out," Crow said in an interview before he spoke to the Indo-American Chamber of Commerce at the ASU's University Club.

He also said students from other countries have decided not to come to ASU.

Some of those expressing concern about the law are from other countries other than Mexico, he said. He declined to say any more about the prospective faculty members, including which subjects they teach.

The university has received calls from representatives of countries "all over the world asking if it's still safe to send students," he said. "We say everything will be fine."

The university has written to international student applicants to reassure them, he said, adding that he wants the international students to come not only because they enrich the educational experience but they enrich financial coffers.

Crow has previously come out against the bill and urged Gov. Jan Brewer to veto it prior to her deciding to sign it. He criticized it as "very poor public policy."

Steve Phillips, who was in the audience Tuesday, is director of the School of Electrical, Computer and Energy Engineering at ASU. He said "a handful" of faculty candidates - U.S. citizens - have withdrawn their applications.

"They don't want to come to a state that has this law on its books," he said.

Kyle Squires, director of the School of Mechanical, Aerospace, Chemical and Materials Engineering, had a more personal story about one of his graduate students who is demoralized as a result of the new law.

The student is from Douglas; the student's family is originally from Mexico.

The law "has had a profound effect on his outlook, and I think it will affect his research," Squires said.

"He's been involved in protests. It's a huge distraction."

Ron Askin, director of Computing, Informatics, and Decision Systems Engineering, said a faculty candidate in his department had withdrawn his application. Askin said the new law is hurting recruitment "when people get the impression they're not welcome here."

His school has a lot of interaction with people in Mexico.

Classes are taught via video in partnership with Monterrey Tech; the video is streamed to more than 30 campuses throughout Mexico.

The new law "hurts our interaction," Askin said.

He predicted students will think twice before they arrive at ASU to do post-doctoral work.

"Even though they come with a visa, they're given the impression it's not a safe place to come," he said.

Paul Westerhoff said the new law had prompted a candidate to withdraw his application for a faculty appointment in his School of Sustainable Engineering and the Built Environment. He is the school's director.

In another case, another new faculty member has received a job offer and probably will accept.

"Her husband is from Central America, and he's concerned, but they probably will come."
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  #93  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 10:05 PM
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"Even though they come with a visa, they're given the impression it's not a safe place to come," he said.
They're given that impression by reactionary/sensationalistic morons, and they're too stupid to think for themselves.
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  #94  
Old Posted May 11, 2010, 11:57 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Legal immigration is a joke, and doesn't really exist here (this, by the way, is factually correct, and it is hilarious):



Source: http://reason.com/blog/2008/09/24/ne...ke-flynn-shikh

--don
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  #95  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 1:02 AM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Quote:
Legal immigration is a joke, and doesn't really exist here (this, by the way, is factually correct, and it is hilarious):
You can't be serious, Don. Just a 20 sec google search came up with these stats.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigra..._United_States

Quote:
As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than all other countries in the world combined.[1] Since the liberalization of immigration policy in 1965,[2] the number of first- generation immigrants living in the United States has quadrupled,[3] from 9.6 million in 1970 to about 38 million in 2007.[4]...A record 1,046,539 persons were naturalized as U.S. citizens in 2008.
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  #96  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 2:24 PM
DowntownDweller DowntownDweller is offline
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
we need to totally rework it, streamline it, and let in vastly more people..
WRONG.
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  #97  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 4:29 PM
NorthScottsdale NorthScottsdale is offline
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Has anyone heard of the "buycott"? There are groups getting together to help and counteract the Arizona boycott by buying arizona products, and traveling to Arizona and spending their money here... it is gaining a lot of followers. What a lot of people keep failing to see, is that 70% of the population supports this law. There is overwhelming support for the new laws here. I wonder how much of a difference this will make on the "boycott" of our state?

Here is the website: http://www.buycottarizona.com/
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  #98  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 5:31 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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All fans of the "Los Suns" can now attend the playoff games for FREE in support of the anti-anti illegal immigration movement, and to show support for Suns owner Bob Sarver's bold National stance on this issue.

"Bring your bolt cutters and climb or cut through the fence behind US Airways Center," said Sarver.

"If caught, we will not ask you for proof of tickets. Our personnel are being trained to ignore this technicality. Those who do decide to attend the Suns games without purchasing tickets will also be able to pick up some free food, care and education just for showing up."

His stance says “everyone should have the right to attend the Suns games, and not be asked to prove they are attending the game legally.” If you do not want to challenge an enraged ticket holder that will ask to see your ticket, move on, as there are many out there that feel that it is not polite to ask. Sarver is counting on his efforts to discourage the threatening ways of all legal ticket holders.

"Imagine how unfair it is to be caught at the game illegally, and being embarrassed by being asked to prove you are there legally! That's simply misguided, mean-spirited and not the American way. It should not be illegal to commit a crime and be here illegally!"

More good news was forthcoming:

"Bring your kids, and they will get Season Tickets for life!"

Sarver thinks this new policy will send a strong message to Gov. Brewer and Washington that the best way to deal with illegal immigration, is to simply encourage it.
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  #99  
Old Posted May 12, 2010, 5:51 PM
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my take

hey, sorry, if this bill is seen as an inconvenience to people but, clearly, the problem isn't going away on its own and the Feds aren't doing jack shit to stop it. so, bravo, to brewer and arizona for taking a step to do something about it. i'm sorry people "feel bad" for people singled out (if they are) but white america needs to cut this guilt bullshit about everything race-related. my parents nor yours employed slaves. end of story. move on. the fact is, millions of people have invaded our country and i don't blame them for doing so. people will go where they can maximize their utility in life. america is living off past glories and who doesnt want to get their free meal while it lasts? can't blame them. but everything is changing. when the libraries and schools and fire stations and other "public" services stop running because we are flat broke due to our "understanding" social/fiscal policies, you will quickly see bleeding-heart white america tell the illegals to get the fuck out. so let's just cut to the chase and start enforcing mother-fucking immigration laws...
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  #100  
Old Posted May 13, 2010, 2:11 AM
phxbyrd phxbyrd is offline
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Even though they wear the Los Dbacks jerseys I walked past a group today getting ready to protest the baseball game and calling for a Dbacks boycott. How ridiculous! This is begining to remind me of the black leaders who use boycotts to get big donations to their organization. I wonder what hispanic political leaders are looking for the big payoff in this whole thing? Let's identify who they are and raise the funds privately and get these guys paid off so we can move on.
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