PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by mja

I fly to Europe every summer with my family - my wife is European. We don't fly out of PHL anymore because we can fly out of Newark for about half the price, and at 5 tickets, that adds up. The train is dirt cheap and drops you off directly at the airport.

My wife will fly direct out of PHL to Europe for short stretches of time for her job, though.

This tracks. And I would do the same if I had a family.

But going to EWR for an individual domestic ticket is insanity, unless you're starting out in like Yardley or Mercer County. I haven't thought about it, but I wouldn't be surprised if most people in Bucks County go to EWR instead of PHL as a default.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This tracks. And I would do the same if I had a family.

But going to EWR for an individual domestic ticket is insanity, unless you're starting out in like Yardley or Mercer County. I haven't thought about it, but I wouldn't be surprised if most people in Bucks County go to EWR instead of PHL as a default.

It honestly depends on how much you fly and your income level and where you are flying. When I was a student or young professional without much money, I’d drive to NC bc it was so much cheaper. Then I started flying out of Newark to CLT or from PHL to Raleigh instead of CLT to save hundreds. So I wouldn’t shame people for their choices. Those years taught me how to research ticket prices and I started building miles then to make things easier when older. But PHL has always been more expensive than flying out of other nearby airports. If you fly often, these prices add up unless you consider all options.

[Radio5]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Who's going to Newark (or even worse JFK) to save $100? You have to be bonkers to think it's worth getting all the way to JFK to "save" $100.

I'm only going to Newark to save a minimum of $300 and even then I'd be pressed. The reason I'm going to Newark is to fly direct to international destinations. I'm only going to JFK if I have a gun to my head or flying Cathay to Asia.

I'm not going to Newark to save $100, I'm just saying it generally costs more to fly out of Philly.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Radio5

I'm not going to Newark to save $100, I'm just saying it generally costs more to fly out of Philly.

Yeah this is my experience too. JFK is consistently cheaper to Florida than PHL. I often find delta and American flights for the same price frontier charges to fly to Florida from here.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This tracks. And I would do the same if I had a family.

But going to EWR for an individual domestic ticket is insanity, unless you're starting out in like Yardley or Mercer County. I haven't thought about it, but I wouldn't be surprised if most people in Bucks County go to EWR instead of PHL as a default.

Also depends on airline allegiance. PHL is American, EWR is United. I wouldn't drive an extra 1 hr + for a basic domestic flight, but for international vacay, sure.

Separately, it would be nice if PHL added more domestic routes on United or Delta, would make the airport more competitive.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Also depends on airline allegiance. PHL is American, EWR is United. I wouldn't drive an extra 1 hr + for a basic domestic flight, but for international vacay, sure.

Separately, it would be nice if PHL added more domestic routes on United or Delta, would make the airport more competitive.

United used to have a 'hack' where you could search 30th St Station in the airport code, I think it was like ZFV or something. They would provide an Amtrak ticket to Newark as well as much cheaper fares to the destination. A ploy to eat some of American's lunch out of PHL. I used that in a pinch a few times, it was beautiful (except putting your life at risk flying BOEING planes, I kid I kid).

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

It honestly depends on how much you fly and your income level and where you are flying. When I was a student or young professional without much money, I’d drive to NC bc it was so much cheaper. Then I started flying out of Newark to CLT or from PHL to Raleigh instead of CLT to save hundreds. So I wouldn’t shame people for their choices. Those years taught me how to research ticket prices and I started building miles then to make things easier when older. But PHL has always been more expensive than flying out of other nearby airports. If you fly often, these prices add up unless you consider all options.

Again, its not more expensive for all flights- this is just a fact. This idea that you always save by going to newark is not accurate, I have given multiple examples of this.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Agreed. Newark is a decent option. Unfortunately, we have to deal with JFK bc it’s an American hub. But honestly, we just started flying some out of Dulles. Renting a car and driving there can save a good bit and get a direct. It’s a good backup to Newark.

Even if traffic is great Dulles is almost 3hrs away- I would need to see a lot of savings to rent a car (well I have a car) and then drive 6 hours round trip plus tolls just to avoid PHL.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Just bc you pull up one instance doesn’t make your point true for the whole. I fly PHL to CLT about 3 times a year, and usually the cost out of PHL is more expensive.

I just randomly chose those dates. Im sure I can find others and still find the same result- people were on here talking about it costs $200 to fly to CLT out of NYC area Rountrip. Show me that flight. Again, Im not saying on certain days on times you can save a few bucks, but people were claiming its like half as cheap to fly to CLT from newark or jfk. And thats with Frontier offering flights from PHL- come on now.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I fly to Charlotte from Newark when I’ve been working in NYC or JC. But if I’m in Philly, I fly to CLT from there. Enough times that I’ve noticed i get cheaper flights out of Newark than Philly.

The only time I drive to DC or NYC is for some international, bc they have more flight options and cheaper prices. Makes a huge difference when you are trying to get upgraded, stretch miles, or reduce layovers. For me, those things are very important. Prime example was Cape Town trip I just did. I drove to DC to get a 14 hour direct that cost 55k miles + $200, then I got upgraded to first class for free in the lay down beds. If I had flown out of Philly, flights would be $1000-$1300 for economy and would have taken 20-24 hours. So that move saved time, money, and allowed me to get sleep to make the most of my trip. Plus, once you drive down there with an upgrade, you get free food in the lounge. Totally worth it.

Yes for all the people flying to Cape Town that sounds great. Not exactly your average vacation flight out of Philly. I mean next people will be talking about how they can't easily get to Asia from here. Considering the most common travel destinations (business and leisure) PHL is respectable. It seems people here visit Europe as regularly as normal people go to the jersey shore- sorry, but these aren't average trips and most people are not air travel snobs- they just dont have the money or time to even join that club. My guess is on the entire eastern seaboard there are probably 4-5 airports that offer more transatlantic flights. Nonstop flights to Europe are not a thing that americans all have as a standard medium/big city amenity- that's just reality. PHL stands to get more euro flights since American is using it as connection point from cities from the midwest and west.

[PhillyPDX]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This tracks. And I would do the same if I had a family.

But going to EWR for an individual domestic ticket is insanity, unless you're starting out in like Yardley or Mercer County. I haven't thought about it, but I wouldn't be surprised if most people in Bucks County go to EWR instead of PHL as a default.

I stayed at a friends in Horsham area last year, time to EWR was only 30 minute longer than to PHL, with much better and cheaper connectivity to smaller west coast airports. Such is how close these airports are relative to the overall metro area size (PHL/NYNJ).

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Again, its not more expensive for all flights- this is just a fact. This idea that you always save by going to newark is not accurate, I have given multiple examples of this.

No one said you save every time by going to Newark. People are saying on average Newark has cheaper flights in many circumstances. That’s fine. People can make the right decision for them as to which airport to use.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Even if traffic is great Dulles is almost 3hrs away- I would need to see a lot of savings to rent a car (well I have a car) and then drive 6 hours round trip plus tolls just to avoid PHL.

Well, I just saved $9600 on first class out of there. So was worth the drive. That’s why you evaluate all options.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Well, I just saved $9600 on first class out of there. So was worth the drive. That’s why you evaluate all options.

Can someone explain why a specific airport would be more expensive than another one to fly out of? I understand the economics of price setting but I keep reading that Philly is so consistently higher because of the costs associated with Philly.

What are those costs and is there something that can be done about that? It seems like ultimately, you're leaving a ton of money on the table if people are driving to freaking Dulles to get a better deal.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I just randomly chose those dates. Im sure I can find others and still find the same result- people were on here talking about it costs $200 to fly to CLT out of NYC area Rountrip. Show me that flight. Again, Im not saying on certain days on times you can save a few bucks, but people were claiming its like half as cheap to fly to CLT from newark or jfk. And thats with Frontier offering flights from PHL- come on now.

Again, you are looking at a snapshot of right now. My comments have been about flying over 20 years. And I’ve flown out of Newark at like $150 before for flights that were $350 in Philly. Now when I was doing that Frontier wasn’t in Philly at that point so maybe that makes AA lower their prices now. Btw—you know you can’t just factor Frontiers base fare…we all know they nickel and dime you…it’s something like $30 to speak to a luggage lady, $70 for luggage, etc. it’s not that much cheaper than AA all the time if you aren’t super prepared to avoid their fees.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Yes for all the people flying to Cape Town that sounds great. Not exactly your average vacation flight out of Philly. I mean next people will be talking about how they can't easily get to Asia from here. Considering the most common travel destinations (business and leisure) PHL is respectable. It seems people here visit Europe as regularly as normal people go to the jersey shore- sorry, but these aren't average trips and most people are not air travel snobs- they just dont have the money or time to even join that club. My guess is on the entire eastern seaboard there are probably 4-5 airports that offer more transatlantic flights. Nonstop flights to Europe are not a thing that americans all have as a standard medium/big city amenity- that's just reality. PHL stands to get more euro flights since American is using it as connection point from cities from the midwest and west.

An airport isn’t just servicing locals. It’s about connection travelers, business travelers, and frequent flyers. Those people are the ones generating the most airline business. Appreciate your passion for the average Philly person, but I’m focused more on what the people traveling most want and need as they produce most of the revenue for the airport. And Philly locals will then benefit from those considerations with cheaper fares, more international connectedness, more tourism dollars, better airport amenities, and cheaper fare from more flight options.

It’s been a pleasure chatting. But we are way off topic. Let’s end now?

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Can someone explain why a specific airport would be more expensive than another one to fly out of? I understand the economics of price setting but I keep reading that Philly is so consistently higher because of the costs associated with Philly.

What are those costs and is there something that can be done about that? It seems like ultimately, you're leaving a ton of money on the table if people are driving to freaking Dulles to get a better deal.

Philly is an American hub without many Delta and United flights. When all three are in an airport, they have these pop-up deals available to attract fliers to try to get their flights full. When it’s just American, they don’t have to lower prices as frequently because they know the locals will just go there for convenience.

You’ll see this play out with routes where American is competing against Southwest or Frontier, where they may offer deals. Or American will simply start pushing more connection flyers through PHL to avoid competition fights with the low cost carriers.

On the other end of the scenario, most the international flights in phl are AA with no competition from other carriers. That’s where you look at Duelles and see both United and Delta flying to Cape Town so they offer special fares to compete against each other.

So yes, if you don’t look at other nearby airports, you could be paying much more to fly out of PHL and not realize it. But to be fair, it’s hard for people to research this to figure out as most people only look at prices on Expedia or the airline site. If you don’t have multiple points cards and logging in through coshare accounts, you won’t see most of the deals. It’s like an extreme couponing game when you get into finding the best deals…and they mostly aren’t out of Philly.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Can someone explain why a specific airport would be more expensive than another one to fly out of? I understand the economics of price setting but I keep reading that Philly is so consistently higher because of the costs associated with Philly.

What are those costs and is there something that can be done about that? It seems like ultimately, you're leaving a ton of money on the table if people are driving to freaking Dulles to get a better deal.

I think it's purely down to the amount of competition, there are airport fees but pretty minimal.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Well, I just saved $9600 on first class out of there. So was worth the drive. That’s why you evaluate all options.

If Im spending $20k or whatever on flights- I surely would check my options and be willing to drive to save $10k. Don't think thats all that common, hence the fact that the year before COVID PHL had its best year ever. Its not the best for every circumstance- but few airports are going to offer the international options of dulles and newark. It's not just a Philly thing.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

An airport isn’t just servicing locals. It’s about connection travelers, business travelers, and frequent flyers. Those people are the ones generating the most airline business. Appreciate your passion for the average Philly person, but I’m focused more on what the people traveling most want and need as they produce most of the revenue for the airport. And Philly locals will then benefit from those considerations with cheaper fares, more international connectedness, more tourism dollars, better airport amenities, and cheaper fare from more flight options.

It’s been a pleasure chatting. But we are way off topic. Let’s end now?

thanks for the lesson. Not sure why I thought the people in the region would be the most critical customers. My guess is airlines will provide capacity to the markets most in demand from a region- you see a lot of competition from PHL to certain areas- much less to others. One could assume that flights to cape town and poland are not in high demand from Philly and thus American and others are really not breaking their neck to offer capacity to those places. The # of intl destinations is expanding- so that is step one- you surely wont have any competition if you dont even have one service in place to a destination.

Fees are generated per ticket so the airport gets money for every passenger regardless of origin so they surely bring in plenty of money for every lowly local passenger who flies out.