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[SteelTown]

Burlington puts brakes on campus cash

May 08, 2008
Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Spectator
Burlington

McMaster's governors face a good-news, bad-news scenario this morning as they ponder the university's plan to build a $28-million business-school satellite in Burlington -- a plan that depends on a $10-million contribution from the city.

The good news is that all members of Burlington city council support the concept and recognize it would benefit their city.

The bad news is that none of them is ready to put up the full amount, now that the university plans to build at Appleby Line and the QEW instead of downtown, as originally planned.

The move has caused the city to question how much of the anticipated economic spinoff would go Burlington directly and how much would be spread throughout the broader region.

It now appears it will be September at the earliest before the city will tell the university what it is prepared to spend. Whatever the amount is, it will now need to be shared by Halton, after councillors voted unanimously last night to seek the region's equal participation in the project.

Getting a comprehensive picture of the potential economic benefits is another part of the bundle of new conditions the city is placing on its potential participation.

"This decision means we are still talking. We are still moving forward," said McMaster provost Ilene Busch Vishniac after the vote.

The city committee's decision -- subject to council confirmation May 20 -- may complicate the university's vote this morning on final approval for $28-million building, which is planned for opening by September 2010. That approval has always been conditional on the $10 million from Burlington.

[coalminecanary]

Credit goes to Burlington for being wary here. Mac tried a bait and switch on them and they didn't fall for it. I rarely find anything to praise Burlington for, but they are 100% correct to insist that funding for this campus should be tied to it being located in their downtown area.

That being said, I'd much rather see Mac downtown here.

But it's going to be bad enough seeing MEC nestled against a highway, Mac doing the same would be salt on the wound!

[SteelTown]

I know Mac Board of Governors has never really been 100% for a Burlington campus. If Peter supports it than the board usually goes along with him. So if this goes back to the Board I could see sparks going off and not getting the full support this time.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Credit goes to Burlington for being wary here. Mac tried a bait and switch on them and they didn't fall for it. I rarely find anything to praise Burlington for, but they are 100% correct to insist that funding for this campus should be tied to it being located in their downtown area.

That being said, I'd much rather see Mac downtown here.

But it's going to be bad enough seeing MEC nestled against a highway, Mac doing the same would be salt on the wound!

true enough...at least Borington is trying to do something to make it not quite so boring anymore.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Burlington is a nice city, with well-established older neighborhoods and a lakefront that they've been steadfastly committed to building into a centerpiece for the city. Their efforts to attract Mac downtown were another piece of that puzzle. Well I can appreciate that the Dundas Street corridor and suburban tracts aren't suitable to some people's tastes--it makes no more sense to use that as a template to judge the entire city by than it would be to say Hamilton is "defined" by Industrial Drive or Stone Church Road.

Burlington wanted a downtown University campus--more power to them. Clearly Mac's preference is a drive-in/drive-out office park setting to attract the gainfully employed from the GTA to their Executive MBA program--and those two desires are disconnected. It's a positive move on Burlington's part--if Mac wants a satellite facility on the QEW Service Drive they probably shouldn't expect too many incentives from the municipality given what little impact it will have economically or culturally. Given Mac's objectives I would say they are about as committed to locating in Downtown Burlington as they are to locating in Downtown Hamilton.

[raisethehammer]

using the tiny area around downtown Burlington as a template for the entire city makes far less sense than the other 95% of the city which is sprawl.
Most of Hamilton's lower city was built early last century or the previous century. Walk from Westdale to Red Hill and you've got no prob using that as a template to base the city on.
Hamilton grew up as a city.
Burlington grew up only as a suburb. If not for proximity to Hamilton and TO, it would still be 12,000 people.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Burlington developed primarily as a suburb--I don't dispute that--that is it's past 50 or so years of heritage. Nonetheless, the City south of New Street has an urban fabric, beautiful architecture and tree-lined streets. My point was not to draw a parallel between Hamilton--an industial-era urban city and Burlington which was a lakefront town with market gardens to the north. Instead, I take exception to statements of derision toward Burlington which ignore it's attributes and pretend that places like Aldershot, the RBG and Lakefront don't exist. Disliking the suburbs is one's perogative--I think it's important that the distinction was drawn between the Lower City and the Mountain--the Mountain comprises a massive portion of the City's landmass and developed--at least South of Fennell Ave in much the same way Burlington developed--as a suburb. Westdale itself is/was a suburb--master planned from the start on a suburban street pattern--it just happened to come 30 years earlier than most others. The Rosedale area--though it is East of the Red Hill is another example of early suburban development.

The bottom line is that it is possible to be "positive" about Hamilton without running down other cities--neighboring or not.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Burlington developed primarily as a suburb--I don't dispute that--that is it's past 50 or so years of heritage. Nonetheless, the City south of New Street has an urban fabric, beautiful architecture and tree-lined streets. My point was not to draw a parallel between Hamilton--an industial-era urban city and Burlington which was a lakefront town with market gardens to the north. Instead, I take exception to statements of derision toward Burlington which ignore it's attributes and pretend that places like Aldershot, the RBG and Lakefront don't exist. Disliking the suburbs is one's perogative--I think it's important that the distinction was drawn between the Lower City and the Mountain--the Mountain comprises a massive portion of the City's landmass and developed--at least South of Fennell Ave in much the same way Burlington developed--as a suburb. Westdale itself is/was a suburb--master planned from the start on a suburban street pattern--it just happened to come 30 years earlier than most others. The Rosedale area--though it is East of the Red Hill is another example of early suburban development.

The bottom line is that it is possible to be "positive" about Hamilton without running down other cities--neighboring or not.

Burlington south of New Street is beautiful. Just like old Oakville is beautiful. Maybe the newer development to the north will be considered beautiful in 30 years, who knows?

I agree with your last point.

[raisethehammer]

mods....I'd like to know why comments in this discussion have been deleted??
I realize Ted typed a little sob story asking moderators to get involved, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with our discussion. No name-calling, nothing rude and nothing inappropriate.
I'm sure he wanted you guys to moderate it since he used some pretty lame 'logic' to make a point, which I soundly corrected.
Someone help me out here...I'm clueless as to why those comments were deleted.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Thanks for pointing it out RTH, I hadn't noticed anything missing--it's a fair question--seemed to me to be lively discourse, but nothing personal or offensive.

[SteelTown]

It was deleted because it had nothing to do with the topic and steered off to bickering between two individuals.

I'll create another thread called "Rant Thread" and everyone can go at each other over there or let their fumes out because no one else wants to waste time reading it.

[fastcarsfreedom]

SteelTown--just call it Skyscraper Fight Club.

[raisethehammer]

personally, I think that's way too heavy handed and uncalled for.
I actually think people would have enjoyed reading it.

I state above that Borington wouldn't be more than 12,000 people today if not for TO and Hamilton's proximity.
BCTed stated that Hamilton would be on it's way to 12,000 if not for proximity to TO, and I responded that Hamilton would probably be around a couple million if not for proximity to TO.

Sure, it's not about the Burlington Campus, but is a decent extension of the topic that takes both Hamilton and TO into consideration.

If you guys start deleting every comment that strays ever so slightly off-topic, this thing will feel like a media outlet in China.

[JT Jacobs]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

personally, I think that's way too heavy handed and uncalled for.
I actually think people would have enjoyed reading it.

I state above that Borington wouldn't be more than 12,000 people today if not for TO and Hamilton's proximity.
BCTed stated that Hamilton would be on it's way to 12,000 if not for proximity to TO, and I responded that Hamilton would probably be around a couple million if not for proximity to TO.

Sure, it's not about the Burlington Campus, but is a decent extension of the topic that takes both Hamilton and TO into consideration.

If you guys start deleting every comment that strays ever so slightly off-topic, this thing will feel like a media outlet in China.

I agree. Topics will, of necessity, become unmoored from their original anchoring subject, here and there, but this tends to result in great discourse and the creation of strong ideas.

[SteelTown]

I will start deleting when comments like these are made....

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

that's a good one.
that's called using NO logic, not 'altering it slightly'. You must be in quite the mood tonight eh? trying to pick a fight?? haha.

Because of that it started a whole bickering fest. How is that related in any way to this topic other than butting heads against one another?

[raisethehammer]

cherry picking one line out of my entire post (which was made in humour - thus the 'haha) is no way to determine the quality of an entire comment.
There needs to be way more leeway than this IMO.

[SteelTown]

Next time just avoid making comments like that and just state your opinion. Avoid going personal even if it's not serious. That's all I'm requesting.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

mods....I'd like to know why comments in this discussion have been deleted??
I realize Ted typed a little sob story asking moderators to get involved, but there was absolutely nothing wrong with our discussion. No name-calling, nothing rude and nothing inappropriate.
I'm sure he wanted you guys to moderate it since he used some pretty lame 'logic' to make a point, which I soundly corrected.
Someone help me out here...I'm clueless as to why those comments were deleted.

I really didn't think much of our whole "lame 'logic' " discussion. It wasn't much of anything, really. I did get the feeling that you were trying to egg me on with the "trying to pick a fight" comment, but no big deal.

My "sob story" had nothing to do with my "logic". The comment was in response to fastcarsfreedom's comment about not having to run down other cities as part of being "positive" about Hamilton, with which I agreed. You do not have to bring others down to bring yourself up, and you do that all the time with "Borington" and "Flimsby." I don't like that put-everyone-else-down attitude very much, especially given that most of these places are local and really have nothing wrong with them in my view.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I'm sure he wanted you guys to moderate it since he used some pretty lame 'logic' to make a point, which I soundly corrected.

I rambled a bit in my last post. I did not ask for that discussion to be deleted. I do not like seeing deleted posts. In fact, my most recently deleted post in this thread involved me asking why another of my posts had been deleted. I wanted someone to tell you to stop being so rude when it comes to people and cities you do not like.

[raisethehammer]

fair enough....I'm just saying, it should all be on here to read. not deleted.