NHL Thread: 2021-2022 Season

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Speaking of old Canadian teams, Colorado's retro jerseys this year are beautiful.



I'd be tempted to buy a Mackinnon one as a cool piece of memorabilia down the road.

I'm not a big fan of most of the other ones released, but LA's might be one of my favourite jerseys ever...

Hell yes x 2

Perhaps a NJ as well.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Of course during this entire period the Coyotes have been dead last in revenue.

One thing to keep in mind about the Coyotes is that they've never really been good in their 25 years of existence. This excerpt from HFBoards is worth a read:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

Since 2002-03, across 1348 regular season games the Coyotes are 579-594-175 (lumping OTLs and actual ties together). 17 seasons, they've finished with a point% of .500 or better just 8 times. 8 times, in a period where OTLs make it easier to get to .500 in a season. That includes the 3-year period from 2009-10 to 2011-12 when the Coyotes went 135-78-33 and finally got out of the first round, a trip to the WCF where they got routed by the Kings. Back that 3-year stretch out, and they're 444-516-142 for an average 76.6 points a season.

That 3-year period? It was the 3-year period in the heart of all the bankruptcy proceedings when Balsillie attempted to purchase and relocate the team, leaving fans reluctant to invest in a team they had no idea whether it would stick around or not. Since then, they're 248-284-78 for an average 77.2 points a season. In other words: Coyotes fans for much of the past 17 years have been "treated" to a shitty on-ice product with a 3-year period that the team was good but "maybe they'll stay, maybe they'll go" tucked in there - and the last 8 seasons have been a lot of crap where the team is hopelessly out of the playoff chase early or plays its way out after a decent start, giving fans no reason to show up and drop their hard-earned dollars on the team.

There are very few markets in professional sports that will sell out year in and year out even though the team is shit. Outside of those markets, there's a pretty decent connection between team success and fan support. Phoenix isn't in the former; it's in the latter. Maybe let's see if the Coyotes can have something better than ~14 of 17 seasons of craptitude and no constant don't bother, they're going to leave at any time topped by a season interrupted by a global pandemic, and see if they can have success and maybe even a little playoff success that gets fans to warm up, show up, get invested and get attached long-term.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...2779549/page-9

As fans in Ottawa should be familiar with, it's difficult to support a perennial loser, with questionable ownership, in an arena that is far away from a city centre and not ideally located. The current Coyotes owner is only considering arena options in Phoenix proper at this time.

I can't imagine trying to become a fan of the Coyotes and going online to read comment after comment from Canadians saying the team should be moved. I don't think any other sports league has nearly the amount of toxicity regarding team location as the NHL does.

[suburbanite]

I don't even defend the NHL's strategy regarding Arizona tbh. I agree with Blueandgold that Pheonix isn't really a sports town overall. I think the NHL would be better served chasing growth in other tertiary American markets. I'm usually just talking about the concept of un-profitable franchises in general, and the idea that the owners are stupid for not taking any immediately failing franchise and putting it in Quebec.

How vindicated would Bettman be if Matthews goes home to Arizona and leads them to the playoffs and full stadiums and profitability? It would be the entire franchise coming full circle. Still, I think there's better options to balance growth and year-to-year sustainability.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I don't even defend the NHL's strategy regarding Arizona tbh. I agree with Blueandgold that Pheonix isn't really a sports town overall.

I've long said this about Miami. It genuinely is just not a great sports town.

Originally Posted by suburbanite

How vindicated would Bettman be if Matthews goes home to Arizona and leads them to the playoffs and full stadiums and profitability?

Just the very existence of Matthews should encourage the NHL and provide support in the belief that southern expansion was the way to go. The NHL sorely needs more diverse representation in its players and fanbases and it'll be getting it soon via player development in California, Arizona, Texas, and Florida. This player and youth development doesn't happen without NHL teams in these areas.

[Berklon]

The problem with most US NHL markets is that once a team stinks, the fans bail quickly.

It doesn't matter if the team recently won a cup or had a long stretch of winning, once they're bad - it doesn't take long at all for fans to abandon them. It's not just the non-traditional markets either.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I've long said this about Miami. It genuinely is just not a great sports town.

I've always wondered why. Maybe Miami and Phoenix have simply too many transplants from other places to have the local team be the default choice?

Ottawa just had the bad luck of being stuck smack in the middle of Leafs and Canadiens territory. For awhile it seemed like they could have sustained a generation of new fans, but damn, did Melnyk stomp all over those dreams.

Aside from the Habs and Leafs, not many fanbases can endure such extended durations of being awful. I'm legitimately trying to think of another one in any sport. The Cubs maybe?

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by wave46

I've always wondered why. Maybe Miami and Phoenix have simply too many transplants from other places to have the local team be the default choice?

Ottawa just had the bad luck of being stuck smack in the middle of Leafs and Canadiens territory. For awhile it seemed like they could have sustained a generation of new fans, but damn, did Melnyk stomp all over those dreams.

Aside from the Habs and Leafs, not many fanbases can endure such extended durations of being awful. I'm legitimately trying to think of another one in any sport. The Cubs maybe?

The Cowboys? The Knicks? The most apt comparison for the Leafs in their respective sports.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The Cowboys? The Knicks? The most apt comparison for the Leafs in their respective sports.

The Knicks are the closest thing to the Leafs in the NBA. Massive market, haven't won in forever, and they perennially disappoint.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I don't even defend the NHL's strategy regarding Arizona tbh. I agree with Blueandgold that Pheonix isn't really a sports town overall.

Originally Posted by JHikka

I've long said this about Miami. It genuinely is just not a great sports town.
.

Neither Phoenix nor Miami are really that bad. They just haven't gotten into hockey, and Miami also has never really gotten into baseball and not soccer either.

The Phoenix Cardinals, Suns and Diamondbacks do just fine and Arizona State also gets 50,000 people to its football game and 10,000 to its basketball games.

The Dolphins an Heat do just fine as well. It's just the Marlins and Panthers that struggle. Miami Hurricanes college football draws 50,000-60,000 per game and the city also hosts a tennis competition that's just under the grand slam level.

I know the metrics and standards are different because it's the U.S., but no Canadian city does better than these guys. Not even close.

[suburbanite]

Well ya not many Canadian cities are going to compare in absolute numbers to metros of 5 million +. Football shouldn't even be a comparison because you could draw 70,000 people to a game in Wichita. It's an extreme outlier for sports across the world even just in terms of distance fans will travel on a semi-weekly basis. There's nothing like it that compares. Taking out the two sports that are outliers in their respective countries (hockey in Canada and football in the U.S.) Toronto holds up just as well or better than Miami or Phoenix in basketball, baseball, and soccer.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Well ya not many Canadian cities are going to compare in absolute numbers to metros of 5 million +. Football shouldn't even be a comparison because you could draw 70,000 people to a game in Wichita. It's an extreme outlier for sports across the world even just in terms of distance fans will travel on a semi-weekly basis. There's nothing like it that compares. Taking out the two sports that are outliers in their respective countries (hockey in Canada and football in the U.S.) Toronto holds up just as well or better than Miami or Phoenix in basketball, baseball, and soccer.

Why shouldn't football be part of the equation? It's the most popular sport in the country.

Canada has a subpar spectator sports culture compared to the U.S., and even so-so sports towns in the U.S. are generally better than our best sports towns.

The average metro with at least a couple million people will typically support multiple pro sports plus at least two college sports often with crowds that would be considered great pro-sized crowds in Canada, and also 2nd tier minor league sports with decent crowds as well.

It's OK for Canadians to have other priorities, BTW.

[suburbanite]

This conversation started around the premise that Phoenix and Miami aren't good sports towns relative to their peers. You're arguing that they are because they draw better numbers for football games than any Canadian sporting events. Every town in America from Fargo to New York is a great football town, probably more so than most places in Canada are "hockey towns". That doesn't make them good diverse sports towns. As such, the failure of drawing interest in hockey may have something to do with the culture of the city itself (which also draws below average interest in baseball and basketball) and not just the sport in question.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

This conversation started around the premise that Phoenix and Miami aren't good sports towns relative to their peers.

Yes. It doesn't really matter if either city is a strong NFL market or a poor NHL market, but when you look at all properties combined into one you get to see a pattern. Miami might support the Dolphins (when they're good) but they don't really support the Marlins and Panthers all that much, and the Heat usually do pretty well. Remains to be seen about their MLS side, and college sports are typically well-received. The same process can be done for Phoenix, too, where the Suns are always so-so, the DBacks the same, the Cardinals when they're good, and the Coyotes hardly ever. They'll likely have an MLS team in 5-7 years, too, so that'll be fun.

The NFL is an outlier because teams only play eight home games a year and for most American markets that should be a slamdunk for getting people out to games. Only on weekends, only once every other week. It's pretty uncomparable most of the time to the MLB/NBA/NHL which all play far more games at all times of the week.

Nothing about this convo was really about comparing these cities to Canadian cities.

[Acajack]

I am not the one who brought up that Phoenix and Miami aren't good sports towns overall as an explanation for their lacklustre support for their NHL clubs.

Anyway, let's just say that pro sports fandom operates according to vastly different parameters in Canada vs. the U.S.

My dad used to say that this was a good thing, because in his mind Canada had a higher percentage of people who would actually play sports, as opposed to sitting watching them in a stadium or in front of the TV.

[Djeffery]

I think the NHL definitely thought that large numbers of winter travelers/seasonal transplants from hockey climates would prop up southern US hockey teams. And to some extent that may have worked with Tampa. I know lots of people who go to Lightning games when they are down there. I don't know anyone that has gone to a Panthers game. I don't think there are the same Snowbird populations around Miami that there is around Tampa.

As for other Canadian markets, it was widely reported back in the early 90's that Tim Hortons balked at the expansion fee for Hamilton and the team was awarded to Tampa. It's been said, more speculation probably than anything firm, that the prospective ownership group in Quebec also balked at the price for expansion the same year Vegas was awarded. Sure, $650m USD might be a tough pill to swallow now for a team, but I bet Tim Hortons wishes they had ponied up the $50m back then. Of course, Hamilton would have also balked in the years since at replacing Copps and Hamilton probably would have moved to the US as well.

[suburbanite]

All-Canadian division is looking more and more like a certainty. Would probably entail playing each team about 6 times. I think the division's a complete toss-up, I could see pretty much every team other than Ottawa making a push for the top.

It doubly hurts for Vancouver though to lose all their free agents to division rivals in a shortened season where they face them so often.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

All-Canadian division is looking more and more like a certainty. Would probably entail playing each team about 6 times. I think the division's a complete toss-up, I could see pretty much every team other than Ottawa making a push for the top.

It doubly hurts for Vancouver though to lose all their free agents to division rivals in a shortened season where they face them so often.

Wow ... the Jets get to play Vancouver six times? That’s 6-0 right there. Unfortunately against Montreal and Calgary they’ll be a combined 2-10.

[esquire]

Hard to believe we're only 6 weeks away from the proposed season start date.

The logistics of this are weird, usually training camps are two-ish weeks, but are they really going to run right through Christmas? Either way, we're barely 3 weeks away from the start of training camp... are the players outside Canada playing for Canadian teams going to have to report early to start their two week quarantine? I wonder when we'll hear about schedules? I presume in person fan attendance is out the window given the general state of affairs in North America?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I think the NHL definitely thought that large numbers of winter travelers/seasonal transplants from hockey climates would prop up southern US hockey teams. And to some extent that may have worked with Tampa. I know lots of people who go to Lightning games when they are down there. I don't know anyone that has gone to a Panthers game. I don't think there are the same Snowbird populations around Miami that there is around Tampa.
.

Oh, there is a huge Québécois snowbird phenom going on in north Miami-Dade and especially in south Broward around Fort Lauderdale/Pompano/Hollywood/Hallandale. It's been a thing for several decades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGwH-b367_o

We're talking about a couple of hundred thousand people who live there year-round, several hundred thousand more who spend the winter, and another half million who visit for a couple of weeks during the winter.

The Panthers' arena is right in that area - perhaps at least in part for this reason.

With respect to hockey attendance, a friend of mine goes down 3-4 times a year as his elderly parents winter there (one trip is to open the condo, another is to close it down). He almost always takes in NHL games when he's there and says you hear lots of French spoken at Panthers' games. Multiply that by 1000 when it's the Habs playing.

So at least some of the snowbirds are attending. I suspect they attend at least to some degree to some degree in other places as well, which even if it amounts to 1000 or 2000 extra people doesn't say much for local fan support in Sunrise (Panthers) or Glendale (Coyotes).

[esquire]

I went to Sunny Isles Beach/Pompano Beach a couple of winters in a row and I never bothered with the Panthers because BB&T Center was just so damn far. If the Jets were playing I might have done it, but I wasn't going to drive nearly an hour each way to go watch the Hurricanes or whoever.

It's the same thing in Phoenix, the rink is really really far from where the vacationing Canadians tend to gravitate.