Differences between SW Ontario vs Eastern Ontario

[Docere]

Renfrew County has moved sharply to the right over the past 20 years.

It used to be a stronghold for the Liberal Party, probably a lot of it being residual Catholic Liberal voting. But then it was one of two seats to elect a Canadian Alliance MP in 2000, Cheryl Gallant. It was also the only riding in Ontario where a PC defeated a Liberal in the 2003 provincial election.

Politically, it's almost like the West Virginia of Ontario or something.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But regarding Catholics, are you talking about Anglo-Catholics or Franco-Catholics? Because with only a few exceptions Franco-Catholics in Eastern Ontario tend to be as liberal as they come. Talking about social issues like abortion and gay rights is almost verboten in francophone Catholic churches most anywhere in Canada, for example.

100% Anglophone - largely individuals of Polish and/or Irish origin.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are at least one or two cities in northern Ontario (can't remember which ones) that have a huge amount of flags displayed on a street or a road that are supposed to represent each and every origin that is present in the city. It makes for a lot of flags.

There was some debate IIRC as to whether or not the Franco-Ontarian flag should be there among the Lithuanian, Croatian, Italian and Lebanese, etc. flags. And it wasn't just the "mean anglos" (;-)) questioning that either - some francophones thought it wouldn't be appropriate for them to be in there with immigrant groups. (Note that I am pretty sure the Union Jack, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, etc. flags are there.)

I can't remember what was decided.

Sudbury has the "Bridge of Nations." which is a an overpass over railroad tracks located downtown. There are A LOT of flags along it on both sides. The flags show countries of origin of Sudburians and also include Anishinaabe (Indigenous), Métis and Franco-Ontarian and flag of Ontario. Here it is:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@46.48692...2!8i6656?hl=en

Sault Ste. Marie has a similar thing but it is located in front of City Hall. It also includes Anishinaabe and Métis flags.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@46.50767...2!8i6656?hl=en

Timmins has the oldest one that I know of in Northern Ontario that started in the early 1990s. It's a small display and located in Schumacher which originally was a separate mining town. The flags represent countries of origin of the people who founded Schumacher. It has the flags of Canada, Slovenia, Finland, Italy, United States, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, China, and Croatia.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@48.47687...2!8i6656?hl=en

I'm not sure if Thunder Bay or North Bay have anything similar but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But regarding Catholics, are you talking about Anglo-Catholics or Franco-Catholics? Because with only a few exceptions Franco-Catholics in Eastern Ontario tend to be as liberal as they come. Talking about social issues like abortion and gay rights is almost verboten in francophone Catholic churches most anywhere in Canada, for example.

Guy Lauzon, who has a 100% so-con voting record, I suppose is the exception?

[Docere]

Maybe right-wing (anglophone) Catholics are the main base for social conservatism in Eastern Ontario and evangelicals the main base in SW Ontario?

[Docere]

There was a good number of German and Dutch Loyalists in Dundas and Stormont counties and in the Quinte region. This is evident in the 1871 census, which I had a look at today in the library. Of course virtually all of these people would have been Canadian-born by then.

Stormont:

German 3,125 16.5%
Dutch 1,322 7%

Dundas:

German 5,563 29.6%
Dutch 1,117 5.9%

Lennox:

German 4,649 28.4%
Dutch 201 1.2%

Addington:

German 4,543 21.3%
Dutch 109 0.5%

Hastings:

German 5,968 12.3%
Dutch 1,547 3.2%

Prince Edward:

German 4,866 23.9%
Dutch 634 3.1%

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree with you about social conservatives - especially up in Cheryl Gallant country NW of Ottawa.

But regarding Catholics, are you talking about Anglo-Catholics or Franco-Catholics? Because with only a few exceptions Franco-Catholics in Eastern Ontario tend to be as liberal as they come. Talking about social issues like abortion and gay rights is almost verboten in francophone Catholic churches most anywhere in Canada, for example.

Interesting post BTW - just because I question some things doesn't mean I don't broadly agree.

Honestly I've found most observant or even slightly observant Catholics to be more likely to keep their social views to themselves. Catholicism does a great job with guilt and moral ambiguity that seems to make one less judgemental.

I did an exchange semester at a Catholic high school in Ottawa (Immaculata). Can't say I noticed much difference between the English and French families, but being Catholic seemed to carry more weight than in that it supposedly influenced your social circles and even where you live, which definitely was not the case in Alberta. I also got the sense that strongly observant Catholicism was at most a generation removed (ex. friends' parents knew all the pre-Vatican II traditions that were news to me) whereas out West it seemed to have been left behind in Europe. Maybe it's because most Alberta and Saskatchewan Catholics tended to be of Eastern European or Germanic homesteader descent instead of French or Irish. My mother in law is a non-religious Mexican but I often get more of the French or Irish Catholic vibe from her.

My godmother is a wonderful French Canadian woman who lives near Trois Rivieres. She was my Mom's best friend while they worked together in the Bay Area in the 1960's.

[Blitz]

I also observed more of a libertarian landowners' rights culture in Eastern Ontario. Driving on rural roads north of Kingston, I was actually a little unsettled by the high number of "No Trespassing" signs on virtually every property (some properties would have 3 or 4), and even the occasional "Back Off Government" sign. These types of signs are very rare in rural SW Ontario; in the SW you're more likely to find signs inviting you onto their property to buy eggs or honey. (Lanark County in particular is where Ontario's landowners' rights movement was born).

Agreed that you don't see many "no trespassing" signs in the SW but something you do see in the rural back road areas of the SW are anti-abortion signs, Jesus Saves signs, and all that good stuff that you also see in the rural US Midwest.

[Docere]

I recall on Vote Compass (unfortunately no longer available) rural SW Ontario being more socially conservative than rural Eastern Ontario. Renfrew was more socially conservative than other areas of Eastern Ontario. Renfrew was also the most supportive of the war in Afghanistan of any riding in the country.

In terms of social conservatism, Provencher (Manitoba Bible belt) was far and away the most socially conservative riding in the country.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Sudbury has the "Bridge of Nations." which is a an overpass over railroad tracks located downtown. There are A LOT of flags along it on both sides. The flags show countries of origin of Sudburians and also include Anishinaabe (Indigenous), Métis and Franco-Ontarian and flag of Ontario. Here it is:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@46.48692...2!8i6656?hl=en

Sault Ste. Marie has a similar thing but it is located in front of City Hall. It also includes Anishinaabe and Métis flags.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@46.50767...2!8i6656?hl=en

Timmins has the oldest one that I know of in Northern Ontario that started in the early 1990s. It's a small display and located in Schumacher which originally was a separate mining town. The flags represent countries of origin of the people who founded Schumacher. It has the flags of Canada, Slovenia, Finland, Italy, United States, Germany, Poland, Ukraine, China, and Croatia.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@48.47687...2!8i6656?hl=en

I'm not sure if Thunder Bay or North Bay have anything similar but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

North Bay does not. It is mainly an Italian vacation town that people just stayed.

[Capsicum]

If SW Ontario is more evangelical, how early did this trend start? Did the Loyalists already bring a heavier evangelical presence to that part of Canada when they arrived? Or was it later converts (just from SW Ontario being closer to the US, where they'd have more interchange of ideas).

Evangelicalism is heavily associated with the US since the Great Awakenings of the 1700s but they were likely spread to other British colonies that'd later become Canada as well as Britain itself. The First Great Awakening was before the American Revolution but the Second Great Awakening was after. I'd imagine it's possible that many Canadian evangelicals descend from the Loyalists who were already evangelical when they arrived? Elsewhere in the world Americans, and more broadly Anglophone people, be they Brits, Canadians, Australians, have spread evangelical Christianity to outside the Anglosphere (such as Latin America, Africa, Asia) where it appears to be drawing many converts.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

Excellent post.

A lot of Catholics in SW Ontario would be union members, or have family members with that type of background. Maybe that leads to a more "social justice" orientation?

That's interesting. Union members in Eastern Ontario tend to be "soft" members of the labour movement, almost by accident as opposed to conviction. Think of public sector unions for example. Not much militancy or even mobilization around social issues there among the rank and file.

There is "sympathy" for sure but it rarely translates into concrete action.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

If SW Ontario is more evangelical, how early did this trend start? Did the Loyalists already bring a heavier evangelical presence to that part of Canada when they arrived? Or was it later converts (just from SW Ontario being closer to the US, where they'd have more interchange of ideas).

Evangelicalism is heavily associated with the US since the Great Awakenings of the 1700s but they were likely spread to other British colonies that'd later become Canada as well as Britain itself. The First Great Awakening was before the American Revolution but the Second Great Awakening was after. I'd imagine it's possible that many Canadian evangelicals descend from the Loyalists who were already evangelical when they arrived? Elsewhere in the world Americans, and more broadly Anglophone people, be they Brits, Canadians, Australians, have spread evangelical Christianity to outside the Anglosphere (such as Latin America, Africa, Asia) where it appears to be drawing many converts.

Evangelical Christianity does seem to be more common in regions of Canada that are either close to the border or who have a number of people historically descended from Americans. Think also of southern Alberta and the regions of BC that hug the border with Washington state (Fraser Valley).

The American influence in all of this certainly cannot be discounted.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

Guy Lauzon, who has a 100% so-con voting record, I suppose is the exception?

He is for all intents and purposes considered to be a bilingual anglophone by most everyone - including himself probably.

He's even gotten quite a bit of grief over the years from francophones for speaking French so haltingly and rarely.

His former colleague, Pierre Lemieux, who represented Glengarry-Prescott-Russell as a Tory for a while, was pretty much seen as a younger carbon copy of Lauzon: a socially conservative anglophone with a French name who spoke a bit of French when he had to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

Renfrew County has moved sharply to the right over the past 20 years.

It used to be a stronghold for the Liberal Party, probably a lot of it being residual Catholic Liberal voting. But then it was one of two seats to elect a Canadian Alliance MP in 2000, Cheryl Gallant. It was also the only riding in Ontario where a PC defeated a Liberal in the 2003 provincial election.

Politically, it's almost like the West Virginia of Ontario or something.

Yes, Renfrew County used to be so Liberal that the Liberal nomination was more hotly contested than the actual election. There were bitter fights among Liberals up there over who would be the candidate.

BTW Cheryl Gallant in spite of her last name, is not a francophone in any way, shape or form!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

In terms of social conservatism, Provencher (Manitoba Bible belt) was far and away the most socially conservative riding in the country.

In spite of the name, I suspect that riding has a majority or at least a plurality of Mennonnites... right?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

I recall on Vote Compass (unfortunately no longer available) rural SW Ontario being more socially conservative than rural Eastern Ontario. Renfrew was more socially conservative than other areas of Eastern Ontario. Renfrew was also the most supportive of the war in Afghanistan of any riding in the country.

It also might be the most military-oriented riding in the country with CFB Petawawa at the heart of it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Doug

I did an exchange semester at a Catholic high school in Ottawa (Immaculata). Can't say I noticed much difference between the English and French families, .

Judging from your posts you seem to be about the same age as me. So this adventure in Ottawa would have taken place in the 80s or 90s I guess?

Your experience with people who appeared to be francophone (due to their names I guess) at an anglophone school like Immaculata would not have been representative of French Canadian Catholics at the time.

These families would have been of the Pierre Lemieux/Guy Lauzon variety, basically Anglo-Canadian Catholics with French names and some residual knowledge of French.

The people more representative of French Canadian Catholics in Ottawa at the time would have sent their kids to French first high schools in Ottawa like Champlain, Charlebois, De La Salle, Samuel-Genest*, André-Laurendeau, Cartier, etc.

*Samuel-Genest was the only officially Catholic one at the time, but all of the other francophone public schools would have had student bodies that were very predominantly Catholic as well.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Blitz

Agreed that you don't see many "no trespassing" signs in the SW but something you do see in the rural back road areas of the SW are anti-abortion signs, Jesus Saves signs, and all that good stuff that you also see in the rural US Midwest.

That is very true, even along more major routes such as Highway 3. With the exception of a couple spots in a heavily Polish Catholic area of Renfrew County, I can't say I've seen such signs in Eastern Ontario.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

If SW Ontario is more evangelical, how early did this trend start? Did the Loyalists already bring a heavier evangelical presence to that part of Canada when they arrived? Or was it later converts (just from SW Ontario being closer to the US, where they'd have more interchange of ideas).

I don't know if the average British immigrant to SW Ontario in the 19th century was any more evangelical. But SW Ontario had more American influence. There's also the German and Dutch evangelical elements.

With regard to Dutch Canadians, they lost their language very quickly. But there's a lot of Dutch fundie Christians (look at the names of the candidates who run for the Christian Heritage Party for example).