Lamenting the decline of the car

[Architype]

Originally Posted by theman23

I was thinking of buying one to enter into the Micra Cup, but life got in the way.

Would it be held in Micronesia? That would be a sight for sorrys (sore-eyes).


I think there is a limit of practicality for micro cars in a spacious mostly suburban country like Canada, it's also about style, speed, & comfort, or lack thereof. I see Smart cars around occasionally but they aren't picking up much speed here.

[jonny24]

I'm sure lower cars were selling less, but lets not pretend that car manufactures don't heavily try to influence what people "want".

There's an element of people buying what's available, and if the super cheap small car isn't there when they decide "it's time I bought myself a brand new car" then they just go with whatever is smallest and cheapest.

People have been saying the regular cab pickup has all but died because "no on buys it." But (pre-covid) if you actually do try to buy one, the dealer will do everything they can to sell you a bigger, more profitable truck. They limit production and limit options: in 2014 when I bought, the 6.2L V8 was unavailable as was leather seats, the larger touch screen, and other options. In 2022 they brought back the "sportier" Regular-Cab Short-Box configuration after a hiatus, and you can't even get any V8, and it still has the pre-2022 interior instead of the refresh. RAM still sells the previous model from like 3 years ago as the only way to get an RC, skipping the redesign altogether.

Another tactic is to offer discounts and incentives on higher trims, that are unavailable on the lower trims. So you go "well if I spend just a little more, I get a much better value".

It's not always true supply and demand.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by LightingGuy

No one bought the Micra because it sucked ass. Doug Demuro made a good video about a few years ago - dealerships had to sell them at under cost just to get them off the lot.

The Feds a provinces should cut taxes on these small, fuel efficient cars to encourage their use.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by theman23

If lower priced cars have been discontinued because customers aren't interested, that still makes cars more expensive.

As for the rest: citation needed.

Saying something repeatedly doesn't make it true. At this point, I think you're just putting your fingers in your ears and screaming.

Whats your explanation for the F150 going up in price 60%-100% in the last 10 years (depending on the trim)?
https://carcostcanada.com/Canada/Pri...rd-F-150/25365

EDIT:
And the used car comment is funny. There's literally three Honda Civics in the entire country meeting those criteria, and two of them are salvage cars that you can't drive!

At the same time, car makers not producing terrible cars that nobody buys just to say they have a $10,000 model doesn't mean cars have become more expensive either. That's why you have to control for quality - which is what CPI does.

As for me saying things repeatedly, I have quoted sources which you summarily threw out.

As for another example:

1995 Accord 4-dr EX. $22,295 ($43,596 USD in 2022).
Vehicle Length - 184 inches.
24mpg.
34 inch rear leg room.
145hp.

2023 Honda Civic LX - $24,650 USD.
Vehicle Length - 182.7 inches
33mpg.
37 inch rear leg room.
156hp.
Far superior safety features, heated seats, navigation, etc.

Which vehicle would you rather have? The way I see it, the 1995 Accord is roughly twice the price of the equivalent vehicle in 2022.

I had to move "down' a model for the comparison as vehicles have grown as they have become cheaper and the market has changed, as I said. What was once a mid-sized vehicle is now a compact, and compacts have basically disappeared. The Civic actually has 3 inches more rear leg room than the accord did in 1995.

Regardless, CPI does a much better job of controlling for this than a few examples thrown out on a message board can. Cars are cheaper and better than ever.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I'm sure lower cars were selling less, but lets not pretend that car manufactures don't heavily try to influence what people "want".

There's an element of people buying what's available, and if the super cheap small car isn't there when they decide "it's time I bought myself a brand new car" then they just go with whatever is smallest and cheapest.

People have been saying the regular cab pickup has all but died because "no on buys it." But (pre-covid) if you actually do try to buy one, the dealer will do everything they can to sell you a bigger, more profitable truck. They limit production and limit options: in 2014 when I bought, the 6.2L V8 was unavailable as was leather seats, the larger touch screen, and other options. In 2022 they brought back the "sportier" Regular-Cab Short-Box configuration after a hiatus, and you can't even get any V8, and it still has the pre-2022 interior instead of the refresh. RAM still sells the previous model from like 3 years ago as the only way to get an RC, skipping the redesign altogether.

Another tactic is to offer discounts and incentives on higher trims, that are unavailable on the lower trims. So you go "well if I spend just a little more, I get a much better value".

It's not always true supply and demand.

yes, but these tactics have always existed. What has changed is the upper trims have gotten cheaper over time and people have started earning more money which means people are actually going for the higher end trims.

A single cab truck is a very limited market which you do happen to fall within, but that doesn't mean it isn't a limited market. It's the same way that coupes have gone away. Even if Ram would sell a handful of single-cab top-trim single cabs, it's not worth running the production line for it as most people will be like "you know what, for $1-2k, it's worth getting a second row of seats in case I ever want to drive my friends somewhere". So they don't buy single cabs, especially if they can afford the upper trims. It's not upmarketing, it's buyer demand.

You don't think dealers would have tried an upsell to a half-cab or full-cab in 2000?

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

yes, but these tactics have always existed. What has changed is the upper trims have gotten cheaper over time and people have started earning more money which means people are actually going for the higher end trims.

A single cab truck is a very limited market which you do happen to fall within, but that doesn't mean it isn't a limited market. It's the same way that coupes have gone away. Even if Ram would sell a handful of single-cab top-trim single cabs, it's not worth running the production line for it as most people will be like "you know what, for $1-2k, it's worth getting a second row of seats in case I ever want to drive my friends somewhere". So they don't buy single cabs, especially if they can afford the upper trims. It's not upmarketing, it's buyer demand.

You don't think dealers would have tried an upsell to a half-cab or full-cab in 2000?

Here's the thing - GM already produces top trim RCSB Silverados... and ships them to Saudi Arabia. The production line is already set up. They just won't sell them to us

RST and Trail Boss trims, while Canada/US is limited to Work Truck:
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/04/2019-chevrolet-silverado-rst-regular-cab-trail-boss-regular-cab-debut/

However, fair point about the upsell always being present.

What has changed is CAFE regulations - same engine in a smaller-footprint vehicle results in a worse score. When the manufacturers have to hit overall fleet averages, its a disincentive for them to sell the smaller ones, or to give them big engines if they do sell them.

I guess in the end there's a bit a feedback loop - the smallest selling items are what they are going to decide to try to kill off, making them sell even less, till they are cancelled. Whether it's single cab trucks or compact sedans

[drew]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

At the same time, car makers not producing terrible cars that nobody buys just to say they have a $10,000 model doesn't mean cars have become more expensive either. That's why you have to control for quality - which is what CPI does.

As for me saying things repeatedly, I have quoted sources which you summarily threw out.

As for another example:

1995 Accord 4-dr EX. $22,295 ($43,596 USD in 2022).
Vehicle Length - 184 inches.
24mpg.
34 inch rear leg room.
145hp.

2023 Honda Civic LX - $24,650 USD.
Vehicle Length - 182.7 inches
33mpg.
37 inch rear leg room.
156hp.
Far superior safety features, heated seats, navigation, etc.

Which vehicle would you rather have? The way I see it, the 1995 Accord is roughly twice the price of the equivalent vehicle in 2022.

I read somewhere recently a similar phenomena with the gradual size increases of quarter ton and half ton trucks. I believe a Tacoma is now approximately the same size with similar or better performance/capabilities as a comparable Tundra or F150 of 20ish years ago.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by drew

I read somewhere recently a similar phenomena with the gradual size increases of quarter ton and half ton trucks. I believe a Tacoma is now approximately the same size with similar or better performance/capabilities as a comparable Tundra or F150 of 20ish years ago.

Jevons Paradox

• Video Link

[urbandreamer]

Don't diss the Micra until you've driven it. Of the small cars I test drove, the Micra manual & Smart Fortwo stood out as most fun to drive. Incomes didn't go up but access to cheap credit did. I'm debt free.

I'm tempted to modify it: better springs, wider wheels, ditch some weight. The fastest I've driven it: 170 in the middle of nowhere Manitoba.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by drew

Dealer fees and freight charges are pretty flat across all models.

It's crazy that they make up such a huge percentage of the cost for the lower end vehicles, compared to say an $87000 Suburban ($699 dealer fees and $2095 freight).

Dealers make next to nothing on low end vehicles. I think somebody at Toyota told me they were making $400 on a Yaris or something. It's crazy.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by drew

I read somewhere recently a similar phenomena with the gradual size increases of quarter ton and half ton trucks. I believe a Tacoma is now approximately the same size with similar or better performance/capabilities as a comparable Tundra or F150 of 20ish years ago.

Yeah they constantly increase the size then introduce a smaller model.

F150s 15 years ago are the size of Rangers today.

A Camry from 2000 is the size of a Corolla today.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

It doesn't help that the Mirage is an ugly 9 year old design and the Versa sedan is rather plain looking - it would likely be more popular as a hatchback. (SUVs after all are just bloated hatchbacks.)

It's a shame Mini and Fiat don't sell cheap stripped down models in NA instead of pretending to be luxury brands for mostly middle class women. I like the new Honda Fit, which sadly isn't sold in Canada.

I purposely sought out a small cheap car: I considered a 2016 Smart Fortwo, Scion IQ, Chevy Spark, Honda Fit and Micra. And alternatively, a late 80s Crown Victoria cuz I used to drive my neighbor's one as a teenager. (If I'd known I'd enjoy working on cars, I could've got a really good deal on a 1990 Honda Prelude.)

Fiat is bringing the 500 back to North America but only as an EV.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/f...0e-usa-return/

Interestingly the dearth of small cars seems to be an issue in the UK as well. And EVs may be part of the cause.

What happened to budget cars? The death of affordable motoring in detail
Published: 11 November 2022

A couple of stories this month epitomise a wider problem gripping the car industry: the demise of the cheap, popular Ford Fiesta and the launch of the Volvo EX90, the Swedish brand’s first car to broach the £100k price cap.

Two isolated news articles or reflective of a wider trend? It seems obvious that it’s the latter, as dark forces conspire to push up prices across the board.

Wherever in the marketplace you look, the cost of new cars is rising, often dramatically. My previous long-term test car, the Dacia Sandero (below), was launched in 2020 at the bargain price of £7995 – making it comfortably the cheapest new car on the market. Today the entry-level Sandero costs £12,595. A rise of 58 per cent in a little more than two years!

Why are new car prices so expensive?
A potent cocktail of external forces is at play. Some are long-term structural changes, such as the electrification of the automobile, whereas other are sudden shifts caused by dramatic news events:

-Electrification: Emissions regulations ban combustion engines altogether from 2030/35 across Europe – accelerating the switch to electric vehicles (EVs) with their expensive battery tech and higher purchase prices
-Brexit: The UK’s divorce from Europe has made Britain a more expensive place to do business, not helped by Liz Truss’s short and disastrous premiership
-Covid: Production stoppages in lockdown and chip shortage hit supply hard, pushing up prices
-Ukraine war: Further hits to supply chain, restricting supply further
-Global recession: Soaring energy costs, rampant inflation pressuring manufacturing costs further
-Regulations: Ever-tightening emissions controls, and safety laws, meaning pricier manufacturing costs...

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/featur...ew-car-prices/

[Truenorth00]

The 500EV is gorgeous for a small car.

[urbandreamer]

But useless. 115 miles of range would get me killed on the Yellowhead Trail.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

But useless. 115 miles of range would get me killed on the Yellowhead Trail.

It's really just an urban runabout. But there's a market for that.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

But useless. 115 miles of range would get me killed on the Yellowhead Trail.

Not the intended use. As a commuter car and grocery getter for suburbanites this is just fine.

Also, 115 miles is over 180 km. Even assuming two thirds in the winter, how many folks drive 120 km per day with just commuting and errands?

[WarrenC12]

I didn't really think we'd see new EVs with ranges under 300kms.

Keep in mind 180 can become 90 on a bad winter day, parked outside, etc.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I didn't really think we'd see new EVs with ranges under 300kms.

Keep in mind 180 can become 90 on a bad winter day, parked outside, etc.

First off the car itself is designed for milder climates and more urbanized environments where this isn't an issue. Next, even 90 kms is plenty for a commuter and grocery getter, which is what this is aimed at. Lastly, I'd rather have this on the road beside me that an F150 Lightning.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

First off the car itself is designed for milder climates and more urbanized environments where this isn't an issue. Next, even 90 kms is plenty for a commuter and grocery getter, which is what this is aimed at. Lastly, I'd rather have this on the road beside me that an F150 Lightning.

Mazda tried selling a low range EV and it went nowhere fast.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Mazda tried selling a low range EV and it went nowhere fast.

Where and when? Because Fiat seems to be doing just fine with these in Europe. Not every car needs to be a C$55k Tesla with 500km of range. I find car companies run into trouble when they don't address a niche properly. Like Mazda did with the MX-30. A medium sized CUV having 100 miles of range is a problem. A tiny city car having 115 miles of range is just fine. "Fit for purpose." - a phrase I wish Tesla fans understood.