[Halifax] Halifax Shopping Centre Redevelopment | ? m | ? fl | Proposed

[connect2source]

Simons typically does amazing exteriors to their stores, be interested to see what they have planned for the old Sears / Eaton's box.

https://www.simons.ca/en/stores/our-stores--a13090

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I am late to this conversation, but wanted to jump in with one piece of info. While the number of kids living in the true downtown core is low, there are a moderately large (and steadily increasing) number of kids living in the surrounding neighbourhoods. These families are also ones who then quite commonly would walk/bike/drive to businesses and events in the SGR and downtown core areas. I think it is a mistake to not count the kids who live in these areas and who, even though they technically are not "downtown", are bordering on downtown and are often accessing businesses etc in the downtown/SGR area.

There are 4 elementary schools south of Quinpool, the most recently built of which is LMST. When that school was built the province originally wanted to build a much smaller school under the assumption that there were basically no kids/families downtown. Thankfully there was pushback from many families who attended the planning meetings, and the school was built to not only not be smaller but to be slightly bigger than the school it was replacing. However, even then there was not a true realization by the province as to the trend that was taking place and that their planning models were missing, which was that a new elementary school would drive an increase in families wanting to move into the area. And so we are now at the point that a school that is only a few years old will be over capacity next year and will need to begin using portables! Certainly objective/quantitative on the ground evidence of an increase in kids living in a catchment that borders the downtown core, and I think you are 100% right that the area is visited by a significant number of families!

I am very curious about what you are saying. Where are all these in-migrating families actually living? There have been few "family-oriented" developments in the area constructed in recent years so I can only assume these are people buying up the existing single-family housing stock and renovating them to their wishes. I would speculate that if they can afford to do that they are migrating from high-end suburbs like parts of Bedford, Glen Arbour or Kingswood. But if they can afford to do that I also wonder how many of them are doing so to have their kids in the south-end private schools, which are extremely popular among this demographic, unlike the public school system.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I am very curious about what you are saying. Where are all these in-migrating families actually living? There have been few "family-oriented" developments in the area constructed in recent years so I can only assume these are people buying up the existing single-family housing stock and renovating them to their wishes. I would speculate that if they can afford to do that they are migrating from high-end suburbs like parts of Bedford, Glen Arbour or Kingswood. But if they can afford to do that I also wonder how many of them are doing so to have their kids in the south-end private schools, which are extremely popular among this demographic, unlike the public school system.

You are correct that this is likely not driven by new developments, at least not directly. What I am seeing, however, is that some empty nesters and/or retirees are downsizing to these new apartment/condo developments and selling the their homes that they raised their families in, and some homes that were formerly student flats are being redone as single family homes again. In each case, the people that I have seen making these purchases are often families with young kids looking to get into the neighbourhood, and often specifically into the catchment of LMST as the shiny new elementary school.

While I am sure that some of that is driven by intra-Halifax migration, what I have seen on my street and those around me is that the majority are people who have made the choice to move here during the pandemic and who are quite often working remotely. I can think of multiple explicit examples of people in the IT/software and finance sectors who have moved here, and whose jobs are in places like Toronto or even Bermuda. In talking to them, it is driven by a quality of life decisions, with respect to things like having their kids be able to walk to their elementary school, etc.

The private school topic is also an interesting one. My child goes to public school, so I can't comment personally, but I certainly know people who have sent their kids to private. I find it particularly interesting that I know many families who have multiple kids where one might go to public and one might go to private. The choice on private for them was very child-specific in that there might be an academic or inter-personal issue that drove the change. Regardless, I can tell you that at LMST what happens in that there is a slow transition where the great majority of local kids start in public and then for a variety of reasons some will move to private. There are something like 3.5 grade primaries, and then something like 2 grade 6 classes. Again, a myriad of reasons that drive that, but it is not a default position by most parents that their child is going to private, and instead seemingly that most start in public and then as their education progresses some find that a specific private school is the better fit for their child. The trend, as I understand from neighbours/friends, then reverses when you hit high school where some kids in private then migrate back to the public school. Regardless, the facts are that there is an increasing number of kids in these neighbourhoods, and an increasing number of kids in public schools like LMST irrespective of the private schools.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by beyeas

You are correct that this is likely not driven by new developments, at least not directly. What I am seeing, however, is that some empty nesters and/or retirees are downsizing to these new apartment/condo developments and selling the their homes that they raised their families in, and some homes that were formerly student flats are being redone as single family homes again. In each case, the people that I have seen making these purchases are often families with young kids looking to get into the neighbourhood, and often specifically into the catchment of LMST as the shiny new elementary school.

While I am sure that some of that is driven by intra-Halifax migration, what I have seen on my street and those around me is that the majority are people who have made the choice to move here during the pandemic and who are quite often working remotely. I can think of multiple explicit examples of people in the IT/software and finance sectors who have moved here, and whose jobs are in places like Toronto or even Bermuda. In talking to them, it is driven by a quality of life decisions, with respect to things like having their kids be able to walk to their elementary school, etc.

The private school topic is also an interesting one. My child goes to public school, so I can't comment personally, but I certainly know people who have sent their kids to private. I find it particularly interesting that I know many families who have multiple kids where one might go to public and one might go to private. The choice on private for them was very child-specific in that there might be an academic or inter-personal issue that drove the change. Regardless, I can tell you that at LMST what happens in that there is a slow transition where the great majority of local kids start in public and then for a variety of reasons some will move to private. There are something like 3.5 grade primaries, and then something like 2 grade 6 classes. Again, a myriad of reasons that drive that, but it is not a default position by most parents that their child is going to private, and instead seemingly that most start in public and then as their education progresses some find that a specific private school is the better fit for their child. The trend, as I understand from neighbours/friends, then reverses when you hit high school where some kids in private then migrate back to the public school. Regardless, the facts are that there is an increasing number of kids in these neighbourhoods, and an increasing number of kids in public schools like LMST irrespective of the private schools.

True. Its the natural cycle of a neighbourhood. Empty nesters or retirees move to apartments or outside the city and young couples move in to have families.

In the north end, school enrolments are shooting up. There is already an issue that the new St Joseph's A MacKay replacement will be too small for the projected enrolment.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Summerville

True. Its the natural cycle of a neighbourhood. Empty nesters or retirees move to apartments or outside the city and young couples move in to have families.

In the north end, school enrolments are shooting up. There is already an issue that the new St Joseph's A MacKay replacement will be too small for the projected enrolment.

I am frankly not surprised. I have a meeting with HRCE today in fact, to discuss that it is clear to me that the province needs to re-examine the models that they use to project school size requirements in new builds. In will be a generation or more until these schools are replaced again, and yet they still seem to be using aged trends that speak to numbers of families with elementary school age decreasing. The reality is that, as you say, that trend is reversing and using assumptions based on old data is a poor idea. Of course HRCE itself delivers educations and does not build schools, and so they punt to the infrastructure folks at the province. It is frustrating to me that the province seems happy to build schools that will immediately be undersized and not best serve the interests of the students who will go there!

And yes it certainly is a natural cycle, but one that I think has been further driven by both the pandemic, primarily, and the fact that the peninsula has new schools coming online, secondarily.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I am frankly not surprised. I have a meeting with HRCE today in fact, to discuss that it is clear to me that the province needs to re-examine the models that they use to project school size requirements in new builds.

Well, that's annoying. I was already dismayed that the old building was deemed unsuitable for continued use and torn down--probably the most substantive historic building in the neighbourhood, on a site with lots of expansion room outside the original building. If the replacement isn't even going to be adequate to population growth (and this neighbourhood is indeed seeing a ton of kids) that's especially irritating.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Well, that's annoying. I was already dismayed that the old building was deemed unsuitable for continued use and torn down--probably the most substantive historic building in the neighbourhood, on a site with lots of expansion room outside the original building. If the replacement isn't even going to be adequate to population growth (and this neighbourhood is indeed seeing a ton of kids) that's especially irritating.

This feels like another weird NS thing to me. Around here there are many 100 year old schools. Toronto is similar; many schools have been updated but are substantially of the same vintage as the neighbourhood. But in Halifax pretty much every old school building gets torn down. This even applied to 70's and 80's buildings in many cases. If they applied the same standards to schools around here they would decide they have to replace 90% of them. I am not sure why.

On top of this of course if a new school isn't rebuilt on the site you can expect it to sit empty for 10-50 years. St. Pat's, St. Pat's-Alexandra, QEH, Bloomfield.

[Drybrain]

I engaged in this topic with some fellow parents, and the consensus was that it was simply intolerable for the kids to learn in an old building, a fate worse than death, etc.

In fairness, Toronto is doing this too--old Bloor Collegiate was torn down recently, I believe. But yeah, there's a real assumption here that schools simply have to be replaced for the good of the kids or whatever. In the city this is especially weird since many of the parents and kids live in houses older than the schools themselves. Strange.

[someone123]

There is the weird math of deferred maintenance too. Buildings that see nearly zero maintenance for many decades will suddenly be described as money pits needing hugely expensive maintenance that costs more than rebuilding something totally new. It's quite easy to make this argument for any building ever by adding in some new arbitrary requirements ("these classrooms were designed for 20 kids and now we need to do 22 per classroom so we'd have to enlarge every room by 10%! Better to just tear it down!" ). The new construction costs also tend to increase after the comparison is made.

[OldDartmouthMark]

As I read this I have to wonder if the phenomenon is a result of some calculation to bring an older school up to code (like ventilation, etc.), or to some higher standard for energy efficiency, etc etc.

One attitude that seems to remain in Halifax is practicality over sentimentality whereby if it would cost more to bring this nice historic school building up to standard vs building new... cost effectiveness wins out every time.

All just speculation on my part, though.

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

As I read this I have to wonder if the phenomenon is a result of some calculation to bring an older school up to code (like ventilation, etc.), or to some higher standard for energy efficiency, etc etc.

One attitude that seems to remain in Halifax is practicality over sentimentality whereby if it would cost more to bring this nice historic school building up to standard vs building new... cost effectiveness wins out every time.

All just speculation on my part, though.

Which seems at odds with the tendency to try and preserve every old dilapidated rotting residential structure. I guess we like to make the worst choice under any circumstance!

[Keith P.]

The school infrastructure model here encourages behaviour like we have seen with St. Joseph’s. That model has the province building schools, then turning them over to school boards (using an outdated term) to operate and maintain.

In the perverse bureaucratic mind, this means the provincial bureaucracy can cut corners and embrace low-bid tendering on a minimalist set of specifications because they do not have to pay to maintain them long term, so it isn’t their problem.

Similarly the HRCE/school board infrastructure people have little incentive to take on expensive retrofits for HVAC,energy efficiency, air quality or whatever because they know that if the building turns bad, it will eventually get replaced by the province. So they just do the bare minimum.

It is a badly broken model that needs changing. The province does a piss-poor job of maintaining its assets so I wound fund the regional boards/education centres for that.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by kzt79

Which seems at odds with the tendency to try and preserve every old dilapidated rotting residential structure.

This is happening? Where?

There have been many 100+ year old houses torn down just in the past year. Many have been documented in project updates on this board.

I'm not seeing the tendency to save 'every' one of them... far from it.

[hoser111]

All of this has what to do with the HSC development?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I am frankly not surprised. I have a meeting with HRCE today in fact, to discuss that it is clear to me that the province needs to re-examine the models that they use to project school size requirements in new builds. In will be a generation or more until these schools are replaced again, and yet they still seem to be using aged trends that speak to numbers of families with elementary school age decreasing. The reality is that, as you say, that trend is reversing and using assumptions based on old data is a poor idea. Of course HRCE itself delivers educations and does not build schools, and so they punt to the infrastructure folks at the province. It is frustrating to me that the province seems happy to build schools that will immediately be undersized and not best serve the interests of the students who will go there!

And yes it certainly is a natural cycle, but one that I think has been further driven by both the pandemic, primarily, and the fact that the peninsula has new schools coming online, secondarily.

School capacity is best determined by deducting the number of out-of-boundary students from the enrollment total. There are many parents who live in the area of one primary school but decide a 'better school' (whatever that means) exists elsewhere and they then enroll a child at the primary school within their area and immediately ask for a transfer to an 'out of boundary' school and thus the enrollment numbers published by the school board do not accurately reflect the student population. This practice has been in vogue for over 30 years and has distorted school closure decisions over that period. In Dartmouth, the French Immersion P-9 students are bussed to a school in Shannon Park where they learn about climate change and the need to reduce vehicle emissions to save the planet for their future.

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

This is happening? Where?

There have been many 100+ year old houses torn down just in the past year. Many have been documented in project updates on this board.

I'm not seeing the tendency to save 'every' one of them... far from it.

You are right, we are seeing some progress - finally! There was over a decade where literally every proposal was vigorously opposed, often successfully.

Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate architecture and there is a place for history. But it seemed like from about 2000-2015 or so, not much happened. Even now, I think that reflex remains among many.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Back to the Halifax Shopping Centre...

In case anyone hasn't seen what it looked like under construction way back in 1962, I give you this:
Aerial Photograph Looking North on Mumford Road by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr
The photo is dated January 21, 1962, though interestingly (but not impossible) there is no snow visible on the ground.

From Sept 1962, when it first opened:
Oblique Aerial Photograph of the Halifax Shopping Centre by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

And from 1970:
Aerial photograph of Halifax Shopping Centre by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

[OldDartmouthMark]

A couple more from the early 1960s:
Halifax Shopping Centre Looking West on Mumford Road by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Halifax Shopping Centre Parking Lot from Mumford Road by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

[Keith P.]

I remember as a kid when it first opened being both fascinated and somewhat befuddled by the overhead height barriers on the perimeter road. Was also taken by how you could park on the roof in one section.

At the main entrance to the mall itself at the west end between Eatons and the NSLC/Royal Bank, there was a plate installed in the sidewalk saying that a time capsule was buried below. I wonder what ever happened to that.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Maybe the height restrictions were considered as a way to keep heavy trucks off of the rooftop parking?

Never heard about the time capsule before. Maybe it's still down there?