[Dartmouth] King's Wharf (Building E) | 85 m | 27 fl | U/C

[Haligonian88]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

I don't think shipbuilding folks are the clientele, or that it really has any bearing on this development.

Maybe not the actual shipbuilders, but the engineers that Irving is hiring are not unsubstantial. Although if it were me, I'd opt to live in Halifax if I was working in Halifax.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Haligonian88

Maybe not the actual shipbuilders, but the engineers that Irving is hiring are not unsubstantial. Although if it were me, I'd opt to live in Halifax if I was working in Halifax.

KW was proposed before the shipbuilding contract, I was implying that I don't think it was a deciding factor for Fares or those specific demographics...

I think the idea was downsizing babyboomers and yuppies in the first place. I would venture to guess many of those engineers will be Gen-xers.

Colin - The developers put their money on the line. Regardless of the fact that sales/occupancy may be low in certain developments doesn't really impact you. I get your points, but its really pessimistic. Young people like me will buy in if there is ever a crash, don't worry so much.

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The kid needs to distinguish between sales and occupancy.
And selling units to yourself and trying to rent them is a lot different from sales to unrelated persons or companies.
He'll be able to sort it out if he ignores the media and visited the Registry of Deeds.
36 of 88 units are unsold in The Anchorage.
And the moon doesn't set in the south west.

Over at the Trillium 12 of 85 units have yet to be sold.

The Anchorage was always meant to be a rental building. He decided to split it up once he started construction so that half would be condo and half would be rental.

If the next building is indeed less expensive than the previous three I will definitely be looking at buying one of them. Living down here would be amazing, especially once the entire development is complete.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

The Anchorage was always meant to be a rental building. He decided to split it up once he started construction so that half would be condo and half would be rental.

If the next building is indeed less expensive than the previous three I will definitely be looking at buying one of them. Living down here would be amazing, especially once the entire development is complete.

Went from rental to then being advertised as purchase and then realising the units weren't selling in the summer of 2013 changed the pitch to rental.
If you go to look at a unit as a possible tenant you'll be subject to a constant sales pitch. In May 2014 we looked as possible renters and the woman never stopped trying to convince us to buy a unit. I never told her the extent of my knowledge of the sales/rentals and financing of The Anchorage and The Keelson. I know the history because I kept all the media articles.
Obviously he would have a better return if the units would sell. He has a lot money at stake, as do all the big banks.
Cash is king

[Hali87]

I don't get why this is a bad thing for anyone other than the developer/landowner. Worst case scenario is they have to reduce the selling prices or rents, (which is actually a great thing for basically everybody) and the full build-out might take longer, which doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

[JET]

It will be nice when the site is less of a construction zone; the buildings ae nice, but a bit like a lone beautiful cypress tree in the midlle of a quarry.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't get why this is a bad thing for anyone other than the developer/landowner. Worst case scenario is they have to reduce the selling prices or rents, (which is actually a great thing for basically everybody) and the full build-out might take longer, which doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

Exactly.

Colin - This is how supply and demand works.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

CBC, in a rather boosterish piece on their website, reports that Francis Fares will start construction of tower four as early as next month, and that the third building is "nearly sold out".

Obviously Fares doesn't read Colin's sage advice and doesn't know his buildings are really vacant. Since he must be an idiot, like all developers, he will continue building empty shells until the money runs out.

The same story says with the completion of the fourth building and occupancy of over 800, he will launch his promised water taxi from the Kings Wharf marina to downtown, using a "sailboat with captain and crew."

"We'll take them across the harbour, they can go cruising, whatever their wish and desire is," says Fares.

Some commenting wag suggests that maybe they could put people on the train instead.

Fares adds the fourth building will be marketed specifically to young professionals rather than those downsizing oldsters.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...lete-1.2927248

If Colin is right, it's going to be awfully funny watching a Water Taxi going back and forth, delivering no one, as there are no tenants at King's Wharf!

Or even better, if there *are* people on board, I guess we'll just surmise they are merely employees pretending to be tenants!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I don't get why this is a bad thing for anyone other than the developer/landowner. Worst case scenario is they have to reduce the selling prices or rents, (which is actually a great thing for basically everybody) and the full build-out might take longer, which doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

One has to be careful about questioning the motives of people, but I think the armchair market analyses are often really an attempt to argue backwards from a desired conclusion. People decide they don't want a building, and so they say it will be useless to try to shift public opinion against it. I'm not saying that this is what's happening in this thread, but it does remind me a lot of many public consultations.

It's fine to speculate about how well condos will or won't sell but I don't think the municipality or individuals understand the market better than the developers or that any good would come of trying to interfere in it. The naysaying about condos has been around for as long as condos themselves had, but the reality is that most of the condos in Halifax have people living in them.

As an aside, I doubt that developers need to sell 100% of the units in their buildings in order to make a profit, and each building appeals to different segments of the market to different degrees. I can see it making perfect sense to move on to a new, different building before having sold all of the units in the last one.

[Colin May]

[QUOTE=someone123;6888277]One has to be careful about questioning the motives of people, but I think the armchair market analyses are often really an attempt to argue backwards from a desired conclusion.

Two points.
1 ) My data is not an analysis. It is extracted from PVSC and the Registry of Deeds. i.e official sources.
2) Stating easily verified facts is not 'arguing backwards'.

My BS detector has served me very well in the past 40 years in Dartmouth. I know political and business BS when I see and hear it.
King's Wharf is a bold, risky and expensive project. Hype attracts scrutiny and the hype caused me to look closely at the established facts as detailed in legal documents. Others can analyze the sales data and the loan documents and draw their own conclusions.
And the moon doesn't set in the south west when viewed from Dartmouth.

http://kingswharf.ca/index.php/rent/ click on 'view photo gallery'

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Two points.
1 ) My data is not an analysis. It is extracted from PVSC and the Registry of Deeds. i.e official sources.
2) Stating easily verified facts is not 'arguing backwards'.

My BS detector has served me very well in the past 40 years in Dartmouth. I know political and business BS when I see and hear it.
King's Wharf is a bold, risky and expensive project. Hype attracts scrutiny and the hype caused me to look closely at the established facts as detailed in legal documents. Others can analyze the sales data and the loan documents and draw their own conclusions.
And the moon doesn't set in the south west when viewed from Dartmouth.

http://kingswharf.ca/index.php/rent/ click on 'view photo gallery'

I finally understand what you meant in your previous posts , you are referring to the picture below. I think the King's Wharf developers can be allowed some imaginative imagery. They also have a few duplicate towers on the Halifax side. However, by the time the iconic tower is completed then there really will be several more towers on the Halifax side (Roy, Maple, Nova Centre, larger TD tower ...).

On a positive note, of the 5 towers shown in the image below, 4 are either complete or under construction. My guess is that the iconic tower will be under construction by 2018 but that is based on the HRM/Nova Scotia economy improving as has being forecast. I also feel that the great migration to Western Canada will reverse due to the slowing of the oil boom in the West. With a bit more optimism and less pessimism then many ex-maritimers might return to work in the Halifax area.

(source: http://kingswharf.ca/index.php/rent/)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I finally understand what you meant in your previous posts , you are referring to the picture below. I think the King's Wharf developers can be allowed some imaginative imagery.

I thought the moon setting in the southwest thing was some sort of cryptic metaphor.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

I thought the moon setting in the southwest thing was some sort of cryptic metaphor.

My use of the phrase was an attempt to encourage people to ponder the veracity of the widely used image.
It is a misleading image to help push sales and most people don't know east from west.
The photo is one of a few reasons I decided to look closer at the development as I believe a good project can be promoted/sold without crossing an ethical line. The image has been published extensively. Remove the moon and the image is much more stunning - the moon draws the eye away from the buildings.
The boat, looks like a lobster boat, near the bottom of the image is the wrong size when you compare it against the 5 towers behind it. FUBAR.
Stars in the night sky would be more effective but that requires more knowledgeable graphic artists.

[Empire]

Downtown HFX looks to be cut & pasted three times.......3 Aliant buildings?
Why not use Toronto's skyline?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Empire

Downtown HFX looks to be cut & pasted three times.......3 Aliant buildings?
Why not use Toronto's skyline?

But can you see the lobster boat ?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

Downtown HFX looks to be cut & pasted three times.......3 Aliant buildings?
Why not use Toronto's skyline?

To be fair to the King's Wharf developers, they are showing the completed project so why should they show the skyline as it appears in 2012?

By the time the project is complete, the Cogswell interchange will likely be torn down and replaced with some residential towers, the Nova Centre, Cunard Block, Maple, Roy, Pavilion at South Park, tower at the current Discovery Centre, twin Sir Charles Tupper building, Alexander tower and various other towers will be on the skyline. Since no one knows for sure what the skyline will look like in 2030 they just created a future skyline. However, if it were me imagining the skyline I would want to include the Halterm terminal with a couple of massive, docked container ships, docked cruise ships and large container/cruise ships entering and leaving the harbour.

[counterfactual]

Are we seriously arguing over the detailed accuracy of a photo used for promotional purposes?

Obviously, the developers are going to stretch things a bit in order to sell these things.

The reality, is this is a fantastic development that is injecting some much, much, needed new energy and population density into the "core" of downtown Dartmouth and the waterfront area. It might eventually help spurn some additional new investment in the area, some facelifts to existing buildings, etc. and ultimately make downtown Dartmouth look like... a nice place again. Unlike the rundown, down-on-its-luck look it's been rocking for a few decades.

Let's get with it.

[worldlyhaligonian]

It is out of date anyway:

There have been 2 and 3 tall tower renderings since...


Source: metronews.ca


Source: Condonova.ca

[Jonovision]

The new sales centre for the Killick opens at the end of the month.
This rendering was posted on their facebook page. I saw another on an add in the ferry terminal but couldn't find it online.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Looks like the final tower of the 4 is the most boring design-wise, but gives some diversity to their look.