Portland Transit | TriMet/Mass Transit News

[mcbaby]

Originally Posted by Urbanpdx

Except for light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway.

not this again.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by pdxman

I know we all love light rail and streetcar, but that doesn't mean we forget about the roads.

TriMet pays for rail, mostly from the feds who pay 60% of most of our heavy transportation projects, and also employee salary taxes. PDOT pays for the roads through mostly gas tax revenue, try not to confuse the two. Portland doesn't compete for money on rail vs. freeway. If you want better roads raise the gas tax, just like the employeer tax was raised to pay for the new light rail extension to Clack.

[Urbanpdx]

Originally Posted by alexjon

And?

More freeway isn't going to help me, unless you want my legally blind ass tailgating you.

No, I don't but for far far far less money we could supply you with a couple of people 24/7 to drive you around in a Rolls Royce.

[Urbanpdx]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Awesome! Think of all the neighborhoods we could've torn up! Oh well, maybe someday...

How, exactly, would double decking the freeways tear up neighborhoods?

[NJD]

I apologize in advance for continuing this asinine rhetoric, but statistics can be deceiving:

67 lane miles of freeway

= 11.15 miles of freeway at Metro standard 6 lane wide = double decking the the Banfield, but what about I-5, US 26, I-205, I-405, Ore 217, etc...

light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway

Awesome! We don't know how often train headways are or how many vehicles are attatched in this randomly unsupported fact, but if we assume Portland style LRT then that means 1/4 of all those cars in that bogged down, usually overcrowded lane of freeway are not having to find parking spaces, use gasoline, create air and soil and water and noise pollution, and the people get there without traffic headaches or get stuck behind accidents and don't have that pesky road rage I've seen us Oregonians and Washingtonians get.

thanks Urbanpdx for supporting Light Rail!!!

[Urbanpdx]

Just look at the cost of Light rail to Vancouver

Compared to Express Bus-Short, light rail costs $302,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus
Compared to Express Bus-Long, light rail costs $495,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus

It would literally be cheaper to buy a Pearl district condo for each of those light rail riders that would not ride the bus.
Effect of Light Rail on Traffic Congestion

The proposed light rail system is forecasted to increase the capacity across the Columbia by only 7%.

Are new riders attracted to transit by Light Rail?

Compared to Express Bus-Short, rail gives a 31% increase in ridership for $1.2 billion.
Compared to Express Bus-Long, rail gives an 18% increase in ridership for $1.19 billion.
(Spending 37 times the money increases transit ridership by only18%.)

Questions that should have been asked:

How much must we spend on a deluxe bus system to match the ridership of light rail?

How many riders would we get if we spent $1.2 billion on a really good bus system?

For a given amount of money, which option will give the highest transit use?

How accurate are the projections?
(The Eastside light rail was 55% over budget,
the Westside light rail was 394% OVER budget,
tram is now 700% over its original estimate, )

Vancouver Light Rail simply Costs too much and does too little.

[NJD]

if only traffic could be diverted to other streets. i agree that couch wouldn't be the best lane to accomodate the extra traffic. why couldn't another street take it on a few blocks north?

All of Portland's alphabet district streets are the same width except Burnside (due to it's expansion), and there is already a couplet bridge over I-405 at Couch designed for the eventual coupling of Burnside/ Couch (next bridge over I-405 to the north already has high traffic volumes).

[WonderlandPark]

This project sucks donkey balls. You are going to RUIN the brewery blocks, an decent pedestrian-active area. What, exactly are they trying to accomplish except *maybe* sometime run a streetcar on Burnside? Burnside is busy, but we can't judge how crappy the street is running because of the bridge construction, once that is over, Burnside will be back to its slow but steady self.

Also, this will really slow down N-S traffic by having to put in an entire new set of signals on Couch and every intersection along it. What about the busses, bus pullouts, say goodbye to a good chunk of street parking, and let the businesses take the hit. The couplet will be the end of some of the retail in NW. Why can't this idea just die?

BTW, wtf is that green thing beside the US bank tower?

[NJD]

here we go again...

only the eastside line was overbudget, and that was one of the first lines built in America.
EDIT: westside MAX was 2.6 times over the early cost analysis done by Metro in 1979, this was due to the addition of a tunnel boring route and 19 years of inflation and high cost technology advances.
EDIT: RED and YELLOW lines were finished under budget and on time!

The Aerial Tram is/was paid for 85% by OHSU, OHSU also caused the majority of the extra costs by building their building where the upper station was supposed to be anchored into bedrock, the rest of the money comes from development in SOWA.

ompared to Express Bus-Short, light rail costs $302,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus
Compared to Express Bus-Long, light rail costs $495,000 per increased rider that wouldn't take the bus

um... right, realistic math doesn't include saying how much it would cost for ONE DAY WORTH OF RIDES when this system would last 100 years!

The proposed light rail system is forecasted to increase the capacity across the Columbia by only 7%.

AWESOME! almost 10% increase in capacity for just adding LRT, wow! I wonder if we would need a new bridge if we simply added LRT, a new bridge to Jantzen Beach to get rid of those traffic stalling I-5 ramps, added additional local bus service, and widening I-5 from the state border through the Rose Quarter to 3 lanes in each direction! (I can't believe I-5 THE west coast freeway bogs down to 2 lanes in each direction at Columbia Blvd. and at the Rose Quarter 1/4 mile from another Interstate interchange! I understand it was all based on 1960's Moses planning, but come on! Fix that before spending 2-6 BILLION on a new bridge for Couv commuters)

[NJD]

Let's stop this urbanpdx.. and get back to news on the Transit Mall Construction.

Question: does anyone know how much it costs to tunnel bore LRT or BART style tubes in ground like Portland's? To cut-and-cover? I'm looking for real numbers on the actual cost of the tunneling, not what goes in it... I'm trying to get actual costs put together for twin tunnels through downtown Portland.

[MarkDaMan]

The Big Pipe tunnel's cost would be a good start. I think the current cost is $1.2B for both the East and West banks, and the tunnels are something like 18 feet. I don't know the specific numbers though, so please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[NJD]

Thanks! That is a perfect comparison since there are 2 tunnels about the length of downtown, and I'm guessing the track and wiring would be about the same as the cost of the pump systems for the Big Pipe... so roughly 1,200 to 2,000 million for a subway... roughly...

... and a new LRT bridge and route to Milwaukie is roughly 470 million, the busmall is 120 million, 205 MAX is 350 million, Barbur MAX would be about the same per mile around 500 million , 200 million for Forest Grove...

hmmm... so, without a funding stream for a mega-project like a ONE mile subway, they decided to piecemeal with current funding options the next 4 extensions (roughly 30 miles of double track) for the same amount... not a bad decision if you ask me. If we had a better way of funding larger transit projects then I could see spending the money now for future 2050 capacity, but our region just doesn't have the government funding it needs for all services (transit, roads, schools, emergency, health care, etc...) and I don't see that changing until Oregon allows more taxes to be collected.

[Urbanpdx]

ok, I won't even start...

[Urbanpdx]

Metro needs to stop and listen
The Portland Tribune

Metro officials are traveling a slippery slope as they take initial steps to dramatically alter the region’s transportation plan at the same time the Portland metro area updates how it will accommodate more than a million additional residents living here in the next 20 years.

Disturbingly, a draft Metro transportation vision has the definite appearance of being more focused on achieving the regional government’s land-use objectives. Missing, we feel, is an equal emphasis on public priorities for enhanced safety, reduced congestion and maintaining existing roads and highways.

Also glaringly absent is an understanding that the region’s transportation system serves an entire state economy that is dependent upon effective transportation connections linking Oregon to the rest of the nation and the world.

It’s not a contest
While the vision calls for a focus on the entire transportation system, we sense a willingness within Metro to pit different forms of transportation systems against one another.

A recent Metro public opinion survey did as much when it asked respondents whether they would be willing to put “less money into roads and highways and more money into alternative forms of transportation that encourage community developments with housing, employment and stores in close proximity.”

While 63 percent answered “yes” to that question, their response cannot be interpreted as a rejection of road investments.

In the same survey, 91 percent of respondents also said they were “very willing” or “somewhat willing” to pay for maintaining existing roads, highways and bridges, and 68 percent were “very willing” or “somewhat willing” to pay for adding more lanes of traffic on major highways.

The survey also showed support for investments in transit, sidewalks and bike paths.

The public gets it, even if Metro’s initial draft vision doesn’t. The region needs balanced investments in a variety of transportation systems. These systems should be tied together in ways that enhance safety, preserve the region’s infrastructure, serve the economy and reduce congestion.

Instead, Metro’s vision calls for a grid of local streets interspersed with major local arterials and a ring of transit service connecting regional centers and town centers.

Such a plan may seem cutting-edge on paper, but can it be built, and at what expense?

People uneasy about vision
Metro’s vision initially is not being well-received in some circles. Regional business leaders and Port of Portland officials are concerned with its direction. Several local city and county officials express unease. And at least one federal highway administration official has said the plan’s vision focuses on land use, not transportation outcomes, and neglects to include highway expansion as part of an improved system.

Such concerns should be heard, understood and fairly dealt with by Metro.

Looking forward, the region needs leadership and investment in a balanced transportation system that serves land-use outcomes, but first and foremost is rooted in safety and effectively moves people and commerce in a variety of ways.

A leadership commitment to such a direction and investment must be demonstrated before Metro and city and county officials travel to Washington, D.C., in early March to brief Oregon’s congressional delegation and federal officials on the region’s transportation needs.

Otherwise, going to Washington may only serve to point how out far apart Metro and its regional partners may be drifting.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by Urbanpdx

No, I don't but for far far far less money we could supply you with a couple of people 24/7 to drive you around in a Rolls Royce.

Don't be condescending because you haven't got a valid opinion of your own, dearheart.

[65MAX]

The Westside Big Pipe is 3-1/2 miles long and 14' in diameter. The Eastside Big Pipe is 6 miles long and 22' in diameter. For comparison, the twin tunnels through the west hills are 3 miles long each and 21' in diameter, so either the Eastside pipe or the west hills tunnels would be comparable in size to two 3 mile tunnels from Lloyd Center to PSU.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by NJD

hmmm... so, without a funding stream for a mega-project like a ONE mile subway, they decided to piecemeal with current funding options the next 4 extensions (roughly 30 miles of double track) for the same amount... not a bad decision if you ask me. If we had a better way of funding larger transit projects then I could see spending the money now for future 2050 capacity, but our region just doesn't have the government funding it needs for all services (transit, roads, schools, emergency, health care, etc...) and I don't see that changing until Oregon allows more taxes to be collected.

This is exactly right (except a central subway would be about 3 miles long from Lloyd Center to PSU). I know the reasoning for building the system in smaller chunks is because the funding mechanisms aren't there yet to build the whole system at once. I'm satisfied with the progress that's being made (building the spokes first before the hub, adding a new line every 3-5 years) because eventually the high-capacity hub (subway) won't be a luxury, but a necessity. I just hate to see the price tag creep up with each year that passes.

[pdxman]

So i read in the mercury today that trimet is going to scrap the old bus shelters that we love so much and turn them in to pennies--except for one which will be used as a future paper stand. The article said that some guy offered to buy them for $800 a piece(vs. $500 that trimet got from a scrap company) and take them to hawaii to use them for some project there. Interesting and sad that they won't be used again.

[bmfarley]

Originally Posted by Urbanpdx

Except for light rail lines capacity is about 1/4 of a single lane of freeway.

In terms of people throughput.. I think reversing your numbers is closer to the truth.

Operating at peak capacity will yield results similar to the following:

1 LRT track... 3-car trains at 2 min frequencies ... assuming 100 people per LRV car.... 9000 people. Of course, train lengths could be onger depending on station lengths and other constriants (like downtown blocks if operating at-grade).

1 freeway travel lane.... approx max vehicle throughput.... 2000 to 2400 vehicles. Assuming 1.25 persons per vehicle the person throughput is 2500 to 3000.

You'd need to average approximately 4 people per auto vehicle to match LRT. And that is tough when typical vehicle occupancies are about 1.1 to 1.3.

[bmfarley]

sorry. double post