How does your State's Flagship University Compare to Top Private Universities for Job

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Do people really attempt to ingratiate themselves with employers by saying "Hey, we went to the same college?" I mean - do it successfully.

It just boggles my mind that anyone would give a crap about that, unless you're talking about a very small employer that doesn't have a dedicated HR department to do that crap for them.

No, but established alums tend to recruit from the schools they attended.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Do people really attempt to ingratiate themselves with employers by saying "Hey, we went to the same college?" I mean - do it successfully.

My first job out of college was pretty much due to my manager attending the same undergrad program.

And for all my college internships, which led to my first job, I was hired due to alumni connections. IMO it really matters in your younger years. And can help throughout career.

I remember interviewing in a department where basically everyone was a Harvard grad and most were of African American background. Their managing director was an AA Harvard grad, and I knew my odds were near-zero. Wrong school, wrong background. This isn't an affirmitive action sob story, BTW. The director and his hires were whip-smart, and I saw this with other hiring practices. A major investment bank's sales and trading team was half Ivy League lacrosse alums, mostly bro-ish white dudes. There are firms that are still really Jewish or really WASP.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

There aren't top-notch private institutions in every state (nor are there great public schools in every state... but at least there is usually one reasonable one!)

Here's my attempt at doing this for all states, with italicized states having a private school "win"


Florida: I think UF wins over Miami, which is the most notable private school

UF (and FSU) have made a lot of big strides over the past 10 years especially... mainly due to the state's population growth and the state pumping big $$$ into the two, specifically aimed at increasing their rankings/reputations. However, Miami is still the most prestigious university in Florida. It definitely holds the most cachet in the state.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Do people really attempt to ingratiate themselves with employers by saying "Hey, we went to the same college?" I mean - do it successfully.

It just boggles my mind that anyone would give a crap about that, unless you're talking about a very small employer that doesn't have a dedicated HR department to do that crap for them.

Definitely. Back when I was an undergrad and holding part-time jobs that required public interaction, I would always try to casually mention that I was a Temple student and/or a Finance student of the Fox School of Business. I made several connections that way, including with a pretty big asset manager out of Boston. When I was interviewing for my first job out of college, the hiring managers and I all found common ground over being Owls. My manager at my second job was also an Owl.

Aside from reputation, one of the biggest reasons I chose Fox over Smeal (Penn State), Katz (Pitt), LeBow (Drexel), and Smith (UMD-College Park) is due to the alumni network. I knew that I wanted to live and work in Philly after college, so the local alumni network factored heavily into my decision. There are also a lot of Owls in the New York and DC Finance scenes, which were my backups if Philly didn't work out.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I would say Wake Forest, Miami, Tulane, and University of Florida are considered more prestigious universities than University of Georgia.

right, USNWR rankings are certainly not definitive. they're just a very easy to reference starting point because everyone has heard of them before.


FWIW, here's how some of the better known name-brand universities of the south rank acccording to USNWR 2022:

9. duke
14. vanderbilt
17. rice
21. emory
25. UVA
28. Florida
28. UNC
28. wake forest
38. georgia tech
38. texas
42. tulane
48. georgia
55. florida state
55. miami
68. SMU
68. texas A&M
75. baylor
75. clemson
75. virginia tech

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

Aside from reputation, one of the biggest reasons I chose Fox over Smeal (Penn State), Katz (Pitt), LeBow (Drexel), and Smith (UMD-College Park) is due to the alumni network.

I can't can't imagine that too many people care about the names of business schools at the undergrad level (except maybe Wharton, since they've branded it so well).

When I think of B-school names, I immediately think of their graduate/MBA programs.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

right, USNWR rankings are certainly not definitive. they're just a very easy to reference starting point because everyone has heard of them before.


FWIW, here's how some of the better known name-brand universities of the south rank acccording to USNWR 2022:

9. duke
14. vanderbilt
17. rice
21. emory
25. UVA
28. Florida
28. UNC
28. wake forest
38. georgia tech
38. texas
42. tulane
48. georgia
55. florida state
55. miami
68. SMU
68. texas A&M
75. baylor
75. clemson
75. virginia tech

I just don't do number rankings at all. The fluctuate year to year and there are a ridiculous number of schools tied... it's silly.

These are built to get clicks and sell crap. And it's really all US News & World Report has anymore. It's their gimmick.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I just don't do number rankings at all.

even if you don't personally "do number rankings", USNWR's rankings are so widely publicized that they do have a small degree of impact in the real world of university branding.

and there's little doubt that the schools that find themselves floating to the very top of their rankings year after year, decade after decade, are indeed generally regarded as the universities with the best academic reputations in the nation.

but yes, as you start to move down through the middle and lower tiers, things get increasingly ambiguous.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

even if you don't personally "do number rankings", USNWR's rankings are so widely publicized that they do have a small degree of impact in the real world of university branding.

and there's little doubt that the schools that find themselves floating to the very top of their rankings year after year, decade after decade, are indeed generally regarded as the schools with the best academic reputations in the nation.

but yes, as you go down through the middle and lower tiers, things get increasingly ambiguous.

Agree. I just find attempts at ranking colleges as a whole like they do with college sports teams to be rather foolish. Fluctuations in short periods of time are just silly, particularly when nothing moves quickly in academia (especially at the level of "national" universities).

Like, what happened at Columbia and MIT recently to rise to tied for #2 in all the land? Did they just get significantly better than their upper echelon peers? Or did Stanford and U of Chicago just start shitting the bed? Because damn, they suck now compared to Columbia and MIT. Same could be said for schools in the the top 20/50/etc. Is Penn State seriously considered a significantly lesser university than Ohio State, Florida State, Purdue, and U of Texas nowadays? Please.

What changed so much in 5 years?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Like, what happened at Columbia and MIT recently to rise to tied for #2 in all the land? Did they just get significantly better than their upper echelon peers? Or did Stanford and U of Chicago just start shitting the bed? Because damn, they suck now compared to Columbia and MIT. Same could be said for schools in the the top 20/50/etc.

i think you're getting too hung up on individual rankings.

when you look at things more holistically, the schools generally regarded as the best generally rise towards the top.

the fact that they ranked columbia #2 and stanford #6 this year, is billions of times less meaningful IMO.

pay more attention to the overall gist of the list, and not the precise placement of any one school.

Originally Posted by pj3000

Is Penn State seriously considered a significantly lesser university than Ohio State, Florida State, Purdue, and U of Texas nowadays?

i don't think so. they're more or less in a similar general tier with each other in terms of overall academic reputation.

ie. all very good universities, but not exactly creme de la creme like an MIT or harvard.

[Chisouthside]

In the Bay from my experience, recent CS graduates from Stanford usually had higher engineering positions than recent graduates from the UC state system.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Like, what happened at Columbia and MIT recently to rise to tied for #2 in all the land? Did they just get significantly better than their upper echelon peers? Or did Stanford and U of Chicago just start shitting the bed? Because damn, they suck now compared to Columbia and MIT.

It appears that Columbia and MIT rose very slightly over the last decade or so. I don't see Chicago or Stanford particularly declining. All four schools were ranked in the very top tier for decades. In 1970, all four schools would have been top-tier.

Why is it shocking that a school goes from #2 to #4 or from #4 to #2? If anything, that validates the relative stability of the rankings.

Originally Posted by pj3000

What changed so much in 5 years?

Changes over time are expected. The Florida schools have gotten better bc the state's population doubled, so the pool of applicants have gotten vastly better. Any state with massive population increases should have schools with lower acceptance rates (a big share of the ranking methodology).

And urban schools are much hotter than rural schools or college towns, so schools like Columbia are hotter than schools like Dartmouth. Columbia now has the second lowest acceptance rate, just barely behind Harvard. 30 years ago I'm not sure it was even in the top 10 lowest acceptance rates.

Also schools with tech, CS, engineering or generally practical focus are hotter than schools with artsy reputations. The % of undergrads choosing liberal arts majors has plummeted. This may be why Auburn, to take an example, is now ranked ahead of Alabama.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i think you're getting too hung up on individual rankings. when you look at things more holistically, the schools generally regarded as the best generally rise towards the top.

the fact that they ranked columbia #2 and stanford #6 this year, is billions of times less meaningful IMO.

pay more attention to the overall gist of the list, and not the precise placement of any one school.

I get that... it's just that people look at the precise placements... the individual rankings, and whether or not that means top 10/20/25/50/etc... and make reputational, quality judgement based on that.

The placements are often what raise eyebrows and make one question things in this ranking. But holistically speaking, did U of Florida really improve so much in comparison to others from not even being in the Top 50 a decade ago to now being #28? The U of Georgia is now considered to be a significantly "better" university than the University of Washington or Penn State? Florida State... not even in the top 100 a decade ago, and now about to crack the top 50? Come on.

[Crawford]

For Penn State, just a wild guess, but if its rankings dropped slightly over a decade or two, it may be that PA has pretty flat growth, so the number of HS seniors wouldn't be rising like in Sunbelt states, and Penn State may not be super CS/engineering/techie-focused? Also Penn State is an isolated collegetown location, which isn't the trendy thing right now.

I don't know, just three plausible contributors, at least in terms of applicant pool.

But, in any case, as Steely mentioned, it's more helpful to look at the general tiers, not the specific ranking.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It appears that Columbia and MIT rose very slightly over the last decade or so. I don't see Chicago or Stanford particularly declining. All four schools were ranked in the very top tier for decades. In 1970, all four schools would have been top-tier.

Why is it shocking that a school goes from #2 to #4 or from #4 to #2? If anything, that validates the relative stability of the rankings.

MIT went from 7 to 2. That's a HUGE jump in the top ten. Stanford and Chicago went from 3 and 4 to 6. Again, other schools stayed stable.. except for Yale... big drop in relative "Top 10" quality from 3 to 5. A shame

What happened at these schools? The answer is NOTHING.

The methodology changed. That methodology being one from a "publication" that has long ceased to be a respected source of news or data, and has "evolved" into nothing more than an online listicle generator.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Changes over time are expected. The Florida schools have gotten better bc the state's population doubled, so the pool of applicants have gotten vastly better. Any state with massive population increases should have schools with lower acceptance rates (a big share of the ranking methodology).

And urban schools are much hotter than rural schools or college towns, so schools like Columbia are hotter than schools like Dartmouth. Columbia now has the second lowest acceptance rate, just barely behind Harvard. 30 years ago I'm not sure it was even in the top 10 lowest acceptance rates.

Also schools with tech, CS, engineering or generally practical focus are hotter than schools with artsy reputations. The % of undergrads choosing liberal arts majors has plummeted. This may be why Auburn, to take an example, is now ranked ahead of Alabama.

I mentioned the Florida schools earlier, regarding their improvement with population and funding... but its not worth 30+ to 50+ spot jumps. No way, shape, or form.

And I definitely don't do hotter when it comes to academic quality.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

MIT went from 7 to 2. That's a HUGE jump in the top ten. Stanford and Chicago went from 3 and 4 to 6. Again, other schools stayed stable.. except for Yale... big drop in relative "Top 10" quality from 3 to 5.

you're losing the forest for the trees.

again, there's little doubt that the schools that find themselves floating to the very top of their rankings year after year, decade after decade, are indeed generally regarded as the universities with the best academic reputations in the nation.

but yes, as you start to move down through the middle and lower tiers, things get increasingly ambiguous.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

For Penn State, just a wild guess, but if its rankings dropped slightly over a decade or two, it may be that PA has pretty flat growth, so the number of HS seniors wouldn't be rising like in Sunbelt states, and Penn State may not be super CS/engineering/techie-focused? Also Penn State is an isolated collegetown location, which isn't the trendy thing right now.

I don't know, just three plausible contributors, at least in terms of applicant pool.

But, in any case, as Steely mentioned, it's more helpful to look at the general tiers, not the specific ranking.

Yeah, I get it. But at the end of the day, this is a ranking.

I'm talking academic quality and reputation. And I would think Penn State is among the upper tiers of engineering-focused universities in the nation, more so than say, Yale, Brown Dartmouth, Vandy, UVA, Notre Dame, U of Florida... not to mention schools like BU, Northeastern, and Pepperdine.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

you're losing the forest for the trees.

again, there's little doubt that the schools that find themselves floating to the very top of their rankings year after year, decade after decade, are indeed generally regarded as the universities with the best academic reputations in the nation.

but yes, as you start to move down through the middle and lower tiers, things get increasingly ambiguous.

Again, I agree. I'm just using the top 10 examples to show that the rather arbitrary movement in rankings is amplified that much more in the next tiers down.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

MIT went from 7 to 2. That's a HUGE jump in the top ten. Stanford and Chicago went from 3 and 4 to 6. Again, other schools stayed stable.. except for Yale... big drop in relative "Top 10" quality from 3 to 5. A shame

What happened at these schools? The answer is NOTHING.

I don't think that's true, though.

In the Ivies, since the 1960's, there was a "HYP" elite and everyone else. Now Columbia is more selective than Yale or Princeton. Thirty years ago Columbia was about as selective as Penn and Cornell (back then). So it isn't shocking that its ranking has risen, given that relative acceptance rate is a critical weight in the ranking methodology.

MIT is often ranked #1 in CS, Math, Physics, Chemistry and other white-hot majors. No one goes to MIT for a literature degree. Not shocking its rankings placement would improve. It's (arguably) the best school on earth for certain hot majors.

Yale is very liberal arts focused. It's the dream school of future politicians, lawyers and playwrights. Yale will always be outstanding, very top-tier, but its draw isn't the hot thing now. You think divinity school is hot? They didn't even have a business school until a few years ago.

Originally Posted by pj3000

I mentioned the Florida schools earlier, regarding their improvement with population and funding... but its not worth 30+ to 50+ spot jumps. No way, shape, or form.

Florida's K-12 student population has skyrocketed. State schools attract in-state students, mostly. It would be really weird if its flagship schools didn't show some improvement in relative rankings.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't think that's true, though.

In the Ivies, since the 1960's, there was a "HYP" elite and everyone else. Now Columbia is more selective than Yale or Princeton. Thirty years ago Columbia was about as selective as Penn and Cornell (back then). So it isn't shocking that its ranking has risen, given that relative acceptance rate is a critical weight in the ranking methodology.



MIT is often ranked #1 in CS, Math, Physics, Chemistry and other white-hot majors. No one goes to MIT for a literature degree. Not shocking its rankings placement would improve. It's (arguably) the best school on earth for certain hot majors.

But I'm not talking 1960s or thirty years ago. I'm talking 5 years ago. Did Columbia and MIT really rise that much more/get that much better than Yale, Stanford, and Chicago, while the rest of the top ten remained stable? I really don't believe that they got "better" than the others. I think the ranking weights must have changed.

Though I get the focus on "STEM" majors... so I guess if that's an obviously significant barometer, then ok, I get the rankings jumps in comparison.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yale is very liberal arts focused. It's the dream school of future politicians, lawyers and playwrights. Yale will always be outstanding, very top-tier, but its draw isn't the hot thing now. You think divinity school is hot? They didn't even have a business school until a few years ago.

But... then why does Yale not drop out of the top ten? If it's not relevant to the hot fields, then why should it stay up there so high? Not going to compete with any of likely the top 20 in science and tech related studies. RIght?

Originally Posted by Crawford

Florida's K-12 student population has skyrocketed. State schools attract in-state students, mostly. It would be really weird if its flagship schools didn't show some improvement in relative rankings.

True... though the leaps are unprecedented... it's not a situation of "some improvement in relative rankings" . It's going from somewhere like 105 to 55 and 55 to 28 in ten years or less.