Busiest Downtowns in Canada

[Coldrsx]

Part of the question to be answered is, what is defined as your 'Downtown'?

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Part of the question to be answered is, what is defined as your 'Downtown'?

I believe it's the place that is in and around the first settlement of a city, such as Old Montréal or Old Québec City (Lower Town first)

[ue]

I think Toronto being first is obvious. There would’ve been a point not too long ago that it would’ve been roughly on par with Montreal, but the extreme growth of the GTA and especially in Old Toronto (Southcore, Corktown, Cityplace, expansion of GO service, infill, etc) has put it on another level.

Next would be Montreal... as Toronto has pulled away from Montreal, it has started to feel less ‘big’ in a way that it did 15-20 years ago. Comparing it with Vancouver feels tougher, though. Vancouver has a much busier core than the average 2-3 million North American metro area and it doesn’t feel far behind Montreal. Vancouver has more high-rise residential (condos only really took off recently in Montreal), but Montreal has a busier office core as well as the presence of McGill, Concordia, UQAM, and busier nightlife. The surrounding ring in Montreal (Le Plateau, Little Burgundy, Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, St-Henri, Verdun) is also denser (the triplexes vs single detached homes in Strathcona or Mt Pleasant) and probably contributes to residual feelings of busy in the core. But, Vancouver isn’t that far behind, and both cities have a lot of daytime traffic in their cores.

The whole Ottawa/Calgary discussion is good and I’d agree they’re roughly about par. Calgary is busier in the daytime but Ottawa has the ByWard Market. Ottawa’s core neighbourhoods feel more traditionally urban as they’re older but Calgary’s high-rises also are a major contribution that ultimately makes it a wash. They have a different feel but both cities are probably about the same in terms of vibrancy.

I notice other Prairie cities like Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Saskatoon are noticeably absent from the discussion so far.

Quebec City is definitely next on the list. I’d argue the average winter weekend traffic is higher in central QC than Calgary, owing largely to the high tourism traffic. QC’s employment is more dispersed, but the core is full of dense residential blocks and a large tourism cohort that pushes it up, perhaps on par with Calgary and Ottawa.

Halifax and Victoria are the next tier. They’re much smaller, but they’re incredibly walkable and compact. Both cities have huge tourism sectors, good business concentration and residential population. Halifax could get a slight edge just due to the exaggerated post-secondary presence (Dal, St Mary’s).

I feel like Edmonton is on a similar level to Victoria and Halifax, but of course, Edmonton is much larger, so, relative to the population, it feels sparser. Recent construction (ICE District, etc) has made it much livelier, but Edmonton isn’t a major tourist outpost, which is a major factor in every other city discussed thus far. Unlike Calgary, its employment is more dispersed. One of the major post-secondary institutions is downtown, but is somewhat disconnected from it; you don’t see a lot of MacEwan traffic in City Centre or on Jasper the way you do with UofA students in Garneau and Strathcona.

Below Edmonton is Winnipeg. It feels like Edmonton’s downtown about a decade ago. It’s not dead, and there is recent construction to add vibrancy, and it is a major employment zone, but the car culture, lack of tourism, etc is a disadvantage. The older bones mean it has far more potential than Calgary or Edmonton do, though.

Hamilton is the next logical stop. Maybe it’s just the proximity to Toronto, but it feels very sleepy by comparison. Objectively, I don’t think it’s much different than Winnipeg. Both cities are older, but have wide thoroughfares and been scarred by parking lots and urban renewal. Hamilton has less newer development, which perhaps puts it a bit below Winnipeg. While central Winnipeg has UofW and Red River, McMaster is in a separate area. Like Edmonton and Winnipeg, Hamilton doesn’t get a tourism boost.

After that, I think Saskatoon, St John’s, London, and Kingston are roughly on the same level. Smaller cities, and not huge draws like Victoria and Halifax, but still pretty lively for their size (aside from London, which is at least twice as big as the others for similar vibrancy). Kelowna could also be in this tier but I haven’t actually spent time in its downtown area to confirm like the others.

[someone123]

I have always thought that Calgary, Ottawa, and Quebec City were kind of similar. Calgary is more heavily weighted toward highrise office, Quebec City has the older mixed used, medium density neighbourhoods, and Ottawa is somewhere in between.

I don't really know how you'd objectively weight these different things though. Pedestrian traffic or vibrancy are completely separate from density on paper or how impressive clusters of buildings look in pictures. You can have skyscraper canyons that are dead and boring at street level and streets with one-storey small town type shops that are packed with huge crowds and are a regional draw.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ue

Halifax and Victoria are the next tier.

I often wonder how visitors who are interested in urbanism perceive the core of Halifax. It would be easy to view it as a small town that's "punching above its weight" but the more accurate way to view it is that it used to be a much bigger city in relative terms, and a lot of what has been passed down decayed significantly by the early 2000's when it had more or less bottomed out.

Gottingen Street used to be part of "downtown" and you hit the edge of a neighbourhood of 100 year old masonry rowhouses when you're a bit over 3 km north of the middle of town, which is bungalow country in almost every Canadian city. A lot of the new construction is not expanding the commercial core but rather renewing areas that withered after WWII. The city is going to feel a lot bigger when this progresses to the point where you can walk from Inglis to North or maybe Young Street and be mostly in commercial areas with consistent medium or large scale streetscapes.

Most Canadian cities have no North End Halifax analogue. Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto, maybe Hamilton. It's unclear if such an area counts as "downtown" or not.

[ssiguy]

I always found downtown Winnipeg to pull way above it's weight. Ottawa and Calgary are comparable but I have always found Ottawa to be busier at night than Calgary. Edmonton is not only dead but depressing to boot and not even in either one of those city's leagues. After dark, it looks positively apocalyptic.

Vancouver is busy but not close to Toronto or Montreal. Vancouver's downtown is also very small compared to Tor/Mon. Halifax, Quebec, and Victoria are busy and especially in tourist season. London has quite a lively core and it has very busy and upscale Richmond Row. Hamilton also does well and has Hess Village. Saskatoon and Regina only struck me as busy because there were so many drug addicted people living on the streets and asking for change. Kitchener is not dead but I certainly wouldn't say it's vibrant especially because most of the workforce and student population live in Waterloo. St.John's is relatively busy during the day but at night is rockin.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by ue

Vancouver has more high-rise residential (condos only really took off recently in Montreal), but Montreal has a busier office core as well as the presence of McGill, Concordia, UQAM, and busier nightlife. The surrounding ring in Montreal (Le Plateau, Little Burgundy, Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, St-Henri, Verdun) is also denser (the triplexes vs single detached homes in Strathcona or Mt Pleasant) and probably contributes to residual feelings of busy in the core. But, Vancouver isn’t that far behind, and both cities have a lot of daytime traffic in their cores.

Mt. Pleasant is probably 50% apartments, and the houses in Mt. Pleasant are subdivided into 3 to 5 units, so there is a decent amount of density - 24 000/sq mile in an area of 1.35 sq miles. Strathcona not so dense.

But yes, the surrounding neighbourhoods certainly help the energy and busyness of downtown. Mt. Pleasant, Fairview, and Kitsilano add up to 110 000 people living in close proximity to the dt peninsula. The downtown peninsula has a population of 110 000/2.2 sq miles. That's 220 000 people living in a fairly tight area of 7 sq miles.

[ue]

Originally Posted by someone123

I often wonder how visitors who are interested in urbanism perceive the core of Halifax. It would be easy to view it as a small town that's "punching above its weight" but the more accurate way to view it is that it used to be a much bigger city in relative terms, and a lot of what has been passed down decayed significantly by the early 2000's when it had more or less bottomed out.

Gottingen Street used to be part of "downtown" and you hit the edge of a neighbourhood of 100 year old masonry rowhouses when you're a bit over 3 km north of the middle of town, which is bungalow country in almost every Canadian city. A lot of the new construction is not expanding the commercial core but rather renewing areas that withered after WWII. The city is going to feel a lot bigger when this progresses to the point where you can walk from Inglis to North or maybe Young Street and be mostly in commercial areas with consistent medium or large scale streetscapes.

Most Canadian cities have no North End Halifax analogue. Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto, maybe Hamilton. It's unclear if such an area counts as "downtown" or not.

I’d generally consider the “core” of Halifax to be the immediate downtown, St Mary’s campus to the south, Dal and the main part of Quinpool to the west, and the North End south of maybe North or Almon St.

I guess one way of looking at Halifax is that it’s a city that used to be relatively larger vis-a-vis other Canadian cities. I definitely see that. I tend to view Halifax as like a miniaturized big city, though. It feels relatively metropolitan for a city of 400k. Victoria by contrast is in Vancouver’s shadow and feels more provincial. Halifax has a lot of pull over a large geographic area and has a coalescence of various groups of people (creatives, students, businesspeople, etc) that give the city a critical mass of amenities you wouldn’t expect in such a small city.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I always found downtown Winnipeg to pull way above it's weight. Ottawa and Calgary are comparable but I have always found Ottawa to be busier at night than Calgary. Edmonton is not only dead but depressing to boot and not even in either one of those city's leagues. After dark, it looks positively apocalyptic.

Vancouver is busy but not close to Toronto or Montreal. Vancouver's downtown is also very small compared to Tor/Mon. Halifax, Quebec, and Victoria are busy and especially in tourist season. London has quite a lively core and it has very busy and upscale Richmond Row. Hamilton also does well and has Hess Village. Saskatoon and Regina only struck me as busy because there were so many drug addicted people living on the streets and asking for change. Kitchener is not dead but I certainly wouldn't say it's vibrant especially because most of the workforce and student population live in Waterloo. St.John's is relatively busy during the day but at night is rockin.

Big surprise...you have no idea what youre talking about.

Originally Posted by logan5

Mt. Pleasant is probably 50% apartments, and the houses in Mt. Pleasant are subdivided into 3 to 5 units, so there is a decent amount of density - 24 000/sq mile in an area of 1.35 sq miles. Strathcona not so dense.

But yes, the surrounding neighbourhoods certainly help the energy and busyness of downtown. Mt. Pleasant, Fairview, and Kitsilano add up to 110 000 people living in close proximity to the dt peninsula. The downtown peninsula has a population of 110 000/2.2 sq miles. That's 220 000 people living in a fairly tight area of 7 sq miles.

Yeah, sorry, I didn’t mean to say that central Vancouver outside of the downtown peninsula is sprawling or anything, but in comparison to Montreal, it’s sort of like a more exaggerated version of the Toronto to Montreal comparison. Toronto’s bay-and-gables, while often subdivided or maintained by more than a single family, don’t carry the same weight of Montreal’s street after street of triplexes, at least visually. Now, this is contrasted with more walkups and high-rise apartments and condos, like you say, though Montreal has this too (less on the high-rise end, admittedly).

I think ultimately the traditional Montreal vernacular’s density may give it an edge (though could be wrong), but at the very least having a larger base population in the metro area, larger business centralization, and huge student population give the city’s core a boost over Vancouver, though I don’t think the gap is that great between the two nowadays.

Edit: my idea of Mt Pleasant specifically is also more the part south of Broadway, so that may be skewing my impression.

[logan5]

Eh. I'll give the edge to Montreal. Just some clarification on Mt. Pleasant since I live here.

[lio45]

Been a while since you posted here, ue! You still live in Notleygrad? (Don't you mean St. Jasonsburg?)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ue

I guess one way of looking at Halifax is that it’s a city that used to be relatively larger vis-a-vis other Canadian cities. I definitely see that. I tend to view Halifax as like a miniaturized big city, though.

I am talking more about the historic footprint of the urban core relative to today and less about how Halifax compares to different cities.

The Cogswell area used to be mostly medium density 1860's and older buildings along cobblestone streets and that was completely wiped out. Gottingen used to be one of the busier shopping districts but it was an empty shell as late as about 2005. It's now rapidly coming back, something I didn't expect.

Barrington too was physically somewhat reduced compared to what it used to be. Barrington and George was a 7 storey office building that became a parking lot for 30 years, then down from that there used to be the Victorian Royal Bank HQ and customs house, both demolished. The area of nice stone buildings around Hollis is about 1/2 the size of what it was originally. Likewise the surviving old ironstone and granite warehouse buildings from 1790-1850 or so (like the Jerusalem Warehouse that people love) had a ~70% fatality rate in the 1950's. Halifax was hit really badly by urban renewal, and today you're only getting 1/3 of the old downtown plus some modern office buildings and now condos.

I think you could easily visit Halifax and not realize that a bunch of that stuff was lost, and that a lot of the new construction is "restoring" what used to be there and how the different parts of the city used to fit together. It won't be back to an uncompromised state until the Cogswell interchange is gone.

Saint John NB is like this too. What you see today is just a shadow of what used to exist:


Source

If you looked at that parking lot in the second picture, would you guess the building above used to be there?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by ue

Next would be Montreal... as Toronto has pulled away from Montreal, it has started to feel less ‘big’ in a way that it did 15-20 years ago. Comparing it with Vancouver feels tougher, though. Vancouver has a much busier core than the average 2-3 million North American metro area and it doesn’t feel far behind Montreal.

Vancouver not far behind Montreal? Really? I would find that very surprising.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I always found downtown Winnipeg to pull way above it's weight. Ottawa and Calgary are comparable but I have always found Ottawa to be busier at night than Calgary. Edmonton is not only dead but depressing to boot and not even in either one of those city's leagues. After dark, it looks positively apocalyptic.

Vancouver is busy but not close to Toronto or Montreal. Vancouver's downtown is also very small compared to Tor/Mon. Halifax, Quebec, and Victoria are busy and especially in tourist season. London has quite a lively core and it has very busy and upscale Richmond Row. Hamilton also does well and has Hess Village. Saskatoon and Regina only struck me as busy because there were so many drug addicted people living on the streets and asking for change. Kitchener is not dead but I certainly wouldn't say it's vibrant especially because most of the workforce and student population live in Waterloo. St.John's is relatively busy during the day but at night is rockin.

I agree with everything you wrote.

I'll add that I was surprised that both Calgary and Edmonton weren't very busy considering their populations. It was very easy driving into, through and out of their downtowns at any time. Ottawa often isn't that way, especially during government office hours. But none of those cities are anything like Toronto.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Vancouver not far behind Montreal? Really? I would find that very surprising.

Same here.

Montreal is quite a bit busier than Vancouver.

In Winter in Montreal, many people don't go outside because of the underground city so even though the sidewalks may not be packed there are many people downtown.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Loco101

In Winter in Montreal, many people don't go outside because of the underground city so even though the sidewalks may not be packed there are many people downtown.

Precisely the exact same thing could be said of Calgary's +15, yet it is constantly derided on here. While the underground city is larger, having lived in Toronto with the enormous PATH Network, I much prefer the Calgary +15 Network. The natural daylight, not having to constantly rely on often confusing signage to know where you're going, and often easier access to ground based amenities.

Of course this isn't at all to compare Calgary to Montreal (obviously have to mention that so the typical morons on here don't shit themselves), it is just to say that if that's going to be considered in this discussion, it should be considered as part of the vibrancy of all three cities which have considerable indoor networks, not just one.

Montreal is the last city that would need to rely on such a thing to justify vibrancy in the first place, as it's arguably the top city for vibrancy in the country.

[Marshal]

The +15 experience is akin to Skytrain, both compared to their underground counterparts.

I agree with most of what ue has said. My rough approximation based upon experience:

Toronto - 11
Montreal - 9.5
Vancouver - 8.5
Ottawa - 4
Calgary - 4
Quebec - 3.5
Edmonton - 3
Winnipeg - 3
Hamilton - 2.5
?
Halifax - 5 (exaggerated score due to its small pop.)
Victoria - 5.5 (exaggerated score due to its small pop.)

Vancouver has a very busy background, almost as much as the big two, but only Yonge and Ste. Catharine are long crushingly crowded (sometimes) 'main' streets. Robson and Granville are more than a notch down.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Vancouver not far behind Montreal? Really? I would find that very surprising.

From a pure numbers perspective, there's not a huge difference. Like I said earlier, Vancouver has 220 000 people living in 7 square miles (do the conversion yourself if you don't like imperial), which might actually be a bit higher density than Montreal, but Montreal has more office jobs, and a larger overall metro area. Been to Montreal a number of times and it didn't feel all that much busier than Vancouver to me. But if somebody wants to say Montreal is busier that's fine. I like Montreal.

[ue]

Originally Posted by someone123

...

Yeah, fair enough, that's another point to be had. I agree it's less obvious how much is lost in a city like Halifax or Saint John. I've walked by that parking lot in the Saint John example and, like you said, wouldn't have thought there was something that substantial there before.

Winnipeg has a bit of this going on too. It's easy to be dazzled by the Exchange District, other old commercial buildings on Main, Portage, etc as well as the extent of old pre-war neighbourhoods, but it too has faced lots of destruction and urban renewal. I think it's still more obvious this took an effect in Winnipeg than the Maritime cities as there is more substantial extent of parking lots as well as jarring urban renewal projects like Portage and Main, Portage Place, etc.

Originally Posted by logan5

From a pure numbers perspective, there's not a huge difference. Like I said earlier, Vancouver has 220 000 people living in 7 square miles (do the conversion yourself if you don't like imperial), which might actually be a bit higher density than Montreal, but Montreal has more office jobs, and a larger overall metro area. Been to Montreal a number of times and it didn't feel all that much busier than Vancouver to me. But if somebody wants to say Montreal is busier that's fine. I like Montreal.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was meaning. Montreal is obviously busier, but the drop to Vancouver isn't that much. It's not like Vancouver to Calgary or Toronto to Montreal. Vancouver's also a bit more polycentric. Vancouver's core areas (Downtown peninsula, Kits, Fairview, Mt Pleasant, DTES, Strathcona) are, particularly in aggregate, quite vibrant for a metro area of its size. As busy as Seattle at least, which is nowadays closer to Montreal in population.

[Marshal]

Seattle is not bad, but Vancouver is quite a bit busier and more lively throughout its core. Also, Seattle is really two cities accounting for that population. Tacoma, of course is smaller but is still a significantly separate portion of the population. On its own, Seattle isn’t Montreal size, and isn’t hugely larger than the Lower Mainland.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Seattle is not bad, but Vancouver is quite a bit busier and more lively throughout its core. Also, Seattle is really two cities accounting for that population. Tacoma, of course is smaller but is still a significantly separate portion of the population. On its own, Seattle isn’t Montreal size, and isn’t hugely larger than the Lower Mainland.

If you're comparing the Lower Mainland (which would include the separate CMA of Abbotsford), then you can definitely compare it to Seattle-Tacoma, which are more integrated as a single metro area (more like the Vancouver CMA), and still has a million more inhabitants. I'm quite familiar with Tacoma and while it does have a bit of its own thing going on, it's been more integrated into the same larger region for some time. It's more like a Los Angeles and Long Beach situation than a Toronto and Hamilton situation.

In terms of downtown vibrancy, I'm less familiar with nearby neighbourhoods like Capitol Hill. Daytime vibrancy on Granville St and around Westlake Center felt pretty similar to me, maybe slight edge to Vancouver. Either way, it confirms my point that Vancouver is a lot busier for its size.

Seattle MSA - 3.9 million
Seattle-sans-Tacoma - 3.1 million
Vancouver CMA - 2.5 million
Lower Mainland - 2.8 million