The Great Canadian Practice your French Thread

[Aylmer]

There's no strict rule about tu/vous- I find it all depends on what you mean to convey: vous indicates distance, whereas tu indicates informality and equality in social stature.

However, the opposite can also be true: when high school teachers use vous, it indicates to the students that they are on a social level akin to the teacher, as opposed to when the teacher uses tu with them, but expects to be addressed with vous (the most common situation). However, this former only indicates a certain equality in social stature, but not informality. Informality and equality is attained when tu is used by both parties (reserved for the really cool teachers). So, to sum it up:

Higher party - lower party

Vous - vous: social equality, very formal and distant
Vous - tu: social inequality, not necessarily formal, distant
Tu - vous: extremely impolite, usually to insult
Tu - tu: social equality, informal, personal

Usually, you'd use the first case with strangers (or the second if the lower party is much younger), but as soon as you're having a conversation, most people in Quebec switch to tu-tu unless the social distance is great (people double your age, important figures, etc.) Again, this depends on what subtext you wish to convey to the person: if I am talking to a woman and she starts vouvoying (using vous) me, it might mean that I'm getting to close, that she's not interested, etc.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

(same as "tu", "vous" -- in fact maybe that relationship was imported from French)

No, that relationship / distinction between 2nd person singular and plural existed in Old English (a.k.a. German) way before the language got in contact with French. As you might know, the modern German du, deine were present pretty much as is in English back then (thou, thine), but later fell out of use. There were many importations after 1066, but that isn't one.

(the d <-> þ is one of the sound shifts that took place between what became Standard (southern) German and English over the centuries. Durst/Thirst, Dieb/Thief, etc.)

[SignalHillHiker]

If a teacher in Quebec uses "tu" to level the playing field with high school students, does it come across as pathetic and weird like efforts by older teachers to be "cool" often do in English classrooms?

Also - we still use "you" (singular) and "ye" (plural). Sir/Ma'am (Formal) and Buddy/Missus (Informal).

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ha ha ha! I would say if you received any formal instruction in French at all you would have been taught to address strangers with "vous".

We did. But we were taught to address anyone with "vous". The concept of speaking differently to people depending on relationship is something I did not learn until I was an adult, and unfortunately "vous" is hard-coded into my brain.

I wonder if this was some intentional avoidance of discussing class/social status and how other languages focus on it more (early Political Correctness in a sense). In English, the closest thing I can think of is the use of Mr. and Mrs., which are extremely antiquated these days and are mostly used in an ironic context. Outside of telemarketers pissing me off with their false formality, I can't think of the last time I was referred to as a "Mister". Except when I time-travelled back to the 1920 and some street kid wanted my attention (hey, mister!).

The reason I'm being so introspective with this: I'm slowly working my way through the subtler points of conversational Spanish, and my "teacher" keeps helping me with "well, you know French, this works similar to that". And I'm blindsided on this one. I'm amused that you guys brought it up when you did.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

If a teacher in Quebec uses "tu" to level the playing field with high school students, does it come across as pathetic and weird like efforts by older teachers to be "cool" often do in English classrooms?

Not IMO. A teacher using "vous" on high-school students would sound a bit old-school and formal...

Yes, efforts by older teachers to try to be "cool" can often come across as weird and pathetic, but the use of "tu" isn't really one of those things.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by freeweed

We did. But we were taught to address anyone with "vous". The concept of speaking differently to people depending on relationship is something I did not learn until I was an adult, and unfortunately "vous" is hard-coded into my brain.

.

It's a bit of a "safe" option. No one will really be offended if you use "vous" with them, though some might find it odd or amusing.

As a native speaker of course when to use "vous" vs. "tu" is of course intuitive to me.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

If a teacher in Quebec uses "tu" to level the playing field with high school students, does it come across as pathetic and weird like efforts by older teachers to be "cool" often do in English classrooms?

No, because they would use it anyways since they're the higher party. If they wanted to level the playing field themselves, they would either have to use 'vous' to address the students (which comes off as very bizarre) or specify that the students should use 'tu' (which is not really that pathetic, but a little).
Usually what happens is that the right to use 'tu' is earned by the students by just being well-behaved and creating a fun atmosphere. Eventually, the class will just all switch over to 'tu' (usually quite suddenly and without anyone consciously realizing it) and, if the teacher doesn't protest, it stays that way. If it's too soon, the teacher will say something.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I wonder if this was some intentional avoidance of discussing class/social status and how other languages focus on it more (early Political Correctness in a sense). In English, the closest thing I can think of is the use of Mr. and Mrs., which are extremely antiquated these days and are mostly used in an ironic context. Outside of telemarketers pissing me off with their false formality, I can't think of the last time I was referred to as a "Mister". Except when I time-travelled back to the 1920 and some street kid wanted my attention (hey, mister!).
.

Yeah, you tend to use "sir" in English these days.

In French "mister" and "sir" are the same word: "Monsieur".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

No, because they would use it anyways since they're the higher party. If they wanted to level the playing field themselves, they would either have to use 'vous' to address the students (which comes off as very bizarre) or specify that the students should use 'tu' (which is not really that pathetic, but a little).
Usually what happens is that the right to use 'tu' is earned by the students by just being well-behaved and creating a fun atmosphere. Eventually, the class will just all switch over to 'tu' (usually quite suddenly and without anyone consciously realizing it) and, if the teacher doesn't protest, it stays that way. If it's too soon, the teacher will say something.

Default is students say "vous" to the teacher, until the teacher says they can use "tu".

Teachers always say "tu" to the students.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Default is students say "vous" to the teacher, until the teacher says they can use "tu".

Teachers always say "tu" to the students.

We had a French teacher who used to use 'vous' with us and it was really quite weird and uncomfortable. But more than that, it's very confusing in a classroom when at any time you could be talking about one person or to everyone and no one can know! I don't know how we do it in English, but we couldn't make the difference, which lead to some people not doing some pieces of homework because they thought it was just for one person in particular, or everyone doing work that was only meant for one student!

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I've got a question about the use of "vous": why? Why not "tu"? Does it mean or suggest that the "vous" is a somewhat unobtainable person not directly known to the singer(s)? If this song were about a girlfriend, wouldn't "tu" be more appropriate? What's the significance of using "vous" here, if any?

I think it's just a question of rhyme - they needed an 'oo' sound (as in vous), but the only alternative is toi, which ends with a 'wa' sound.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I like to use "vos" which is primarily used in Argentina. For two reasons - Argentina is the Spanish-speaking country I am most familiar with and I know lots of people from there, plus it is close to the French "vous".

"Vos" is used in Central America as well, but it connotes a very, very, informal relation of great friendship. I would never use it as the corresponding verb forms are not familiar to me. My biggest problem in both Spanish and French is a bit of a tin ear in terms of noting whether the other person is using "tu" or "Ud/vous" with me. It leads me to want to use "vous" and "Ud" at all times. I figure as a non-native speaker, they'll cut me some slack and that it's better to be too formal than too familiar.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

"Vos" is used in Central America as well, but it connotes a very, very, informal relation of great friendship. I would never use it as the corresponding verb forms are not familiar to me. My biggest problem in both Spanish and French is a bit of a tin ear in terms of noting whether the other person is using "tu" or "Ud/vous" with me. It leads me to want to use "vous" and "Ud" at all times. I figure as a non-native speaker, they'll cut me some slack and that it's better to be too formal than too familiar.

Another thing is that Argentinians aren't generally well liked in Latin America for their perceived arrogance. Probably partly due to being the most European. My very limited impression is that using "vos" with non-Argentinians would tend to be seen as odd or even pretentious. I'd be interested to hear if this is true from people who are more knowledgeable about this.

[vid]

When I had my last French course in High School (it started 10 years ago this month!) we were taught that vous is usually used in formal settings but that Quebec was warming up to using "tu" for all instances of "you", and that it was starting to be acceptable to use "elles" instead of "ils" for a mixed group. The general rule I used was whichever gender was the majority within the group.

[Robertpuant]

General rule is that if there's 1000 women and one man in a room, we'll refer to them as ''ils''. When speaking however, you'll mostly hear ''y'', pronounced 'E' .

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Another thing is that Argentinians aren't generally well liked in Latin America for their perceived arrogance. Probably partly due to being the most European. My very limited impression is that using "vos" with non-Argentinians would tend to be seen as odd or even pretentious. I'd be interested to hear if this is true from people who are more knowledgeable about this.

You know the leading cause of death among young Argentinian males? Falling off their egos! That's a typical joke among all the other LatAms that suggests why Argentinians are not always held in high regard. Chileans are also disliked, but mainly for "not being Latin enough".

[flar]

Originally Posted by Robertpuant

General rule is that if there's 1000 women and one man in a room, we'll refer to them as ''ils''. When speaking however, you'll mostly hear ''y'', pronounced 'E' .

Funny, my five year old daughter came up to me today and said "you're il and I'm elle." My tin ears heard "you're E and I'm L." It took me a minute to clue in that she was repeating something she learned in school today. At first I thought she was assigning letters to us.

[MexiQuebecois]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Another thing is that Argentinians aren't generally well liked in Latin America for their perceived arrogance. Probably partly due to being the most European. My very limited impression is that using "vos" with non-Argentinians would tend to be seen as odd or even pretentious. I'd be interested to hear if this is true from people who are more knowledgeable about this.

-Mom! I was just raped by an Argentinian!
- How do you know he was an Argentinian?
- He made me thank him!

On a more serious note. It's a stereotype, like all Asians are good at math....or Canadians apologize to inanimate objects, Argentinians are all assholes and full of themselves, the ultimate arrogant douchebag.

I've met lots of Argentinians, some were pretty cool, many were dickheads (particularly the ones I found in Mexico City, and there are many down there). My guess is that their "Spanish" is so bastardized that it just aggravates the whole situation. Their conjugations and use of "vos" is considered "Incorrect" and some people might take it the wrong way and as "Hey look! We're so unique that we speak our own kind of Spanish!"

[rousseau]

Argentina's the most Italian country outside of Italy. A friend of mine, the son of Sicilian immigrants to Hamilton, married an Argentinian and said it was hilarious the first time he went to Buenos Aires: he understood the slang because most of it was Italian!

There's also the "lunfardo" dialect that started up in the prisons and on the docks of Buenos Aires that has infiltrated the slang. Apparently it's impenetrable to the uninitiated. All very fascinating.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MexiQuebecois

-Mom! I was just raped by an Argentinian!
- How do you know he was an Argentinian?
- He made me thank him!

On a more serious note. It's a stereotype, like all Asians are good at math....or Canadians apologize to inanimate objects, Argentinians are all assholes and full of themselves, the ultimate arrogant douchebag.

I've met lots of Argentinians, some were pretty cool, many were dickheads (particularly the ones I found in Mexico City, and there are many down there). My guess is that their "Spanish" is so bastardized that it just aggravates the whole situation. Their conjugations and use of "vos" is considered "Incorrect" and some people might take it the wrong way and as "Hey look! We're so unique that we speak our own kind of Spanish!"

I have heard all of this about them too but they have always been really cool with me down there. Maybe the attitude is mostly displayed against other Latin Americans.