Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by JCarp

In my personal experience, light rail (that is TRAX in SLC) goes the same speed as traffic does on surface streets). With the larger blocks and further spaced traffic lights (at least in that part of town), I bet METRO will be quicker then 20 mph. Regaurdless, since i go about 20 mph on the 10, it will be a wash.

Two points:

1. For much of the length of the TRAX route (south of downtown), they use old railroad right of way, which means there's no traffic to deal with and the trains can get up to speed (50 mph+) between stops.

2. While Metro trains will definitely go faster than 20 mph between stops, when you factor in the fact that they'll be on surface streets with other traffic and lights and the stops that have to be made, the average overall speed will be less than 20 mph.

That's why I'm saying that a spur from Ahwatukee that goes all the way east into Chandler before heading north into Tempe and then back west to downtown will simply be too long. I think in order for it to be attractive to Ahwatukee commuters, it would have to go as close to I-10 and South Mountain as possible and then perhaps up 48th Street and connect with the main line at Washington.

[SethAZ]

One of my friends works for the City of Tempe and has been working on the light rail for about 10 years now. I asked him last friday why (or if) it was really going to go so slow. He said people get hung up on the "20 mph" but that is just the average. He brought to my attention too, that when you are in traffic or at a red light, your car speed is 0 and when taken as an overall average, your car really isn't going much faster. He also said that the light rail will go 50 mph between some stops.

[combusean]

Mary Manross's State of the City address in which she addresses light rail... let's try to keep the transit-related posts in here.

She's against light rail on Scottsdale Rd through downtown ... but what about tracks on the Goldwater/Drinkwater "couplet"?

Our number one issue, without question, is addressing transportation in this city, recognizing that we are part of a regional system. Transportation needs demand action on local, regional and state levels. There is no easy fix to these challenges which are in part a result of Arizona being the fastest growing State in the nation, and our next door neighbor Phoenix being the fifth largest city in the country. What happens regionally impacts our city!

As Vice Chairman of MAG, I was successful in accelerating the construction schedule of the Loop 101 HOV lane between Tatum and Princess. As a result, construction is now set to begin this summer. This lane will not only encourage ride sharing, it will also provide a dedicated corridor for Bus Rapid Transit, or BRT. Currently, there is BRT in the Valley, but not nearly extensive enough to adequately serve the needs of the public. Coupled with park and ride lots and other local transit connectors, BRT can fill an important transportation gap for our work force commuting to and from Scottsdale – and help us reduce the number of cars on our local streets! As a matter of fact, today, a majority of our workforce travels to Scottsdale for employment. As your Mayor I will continue to look for opportunities, like this, to expedite local and regional projects which benefit Scottsdale and the regional system.

Hopefully, you are all aware that an intensive, citizen-driven effort is currently under way to draft a Transportation Master Plan for Scottsdale. We expect it to be completed in the fall of 2007. There will be many more opportunities for citizen input between now and then. This planning process is comprehensive and deals with transportation issues throughout the city including roadway widening, new trolley routes, bus route expansion, trails and bike paths, all aspects of transportation. It also will make recommendations on possible transit and workforce travel options on Scottsdale Road.

Make no mistake about it… this is a “watershed moment” for the future of our City. Like everyone else, I am eager to reach the decision making point. But it takes time to complete a fair and open public process. Many options for roadway and transit improvements are being analyzed and considered. With public input, and in depth research, we will be prepared to move forward with an effective transportation plan.

However, as your Mayor, I feel compelled to speak out on one issue that has created some controversy within our community. We have yet to see the results of Light Rail in Phoenix, Tempe and Mesa. It may prove to be effective in some of those communities, it may not.

However, I strongly believe that Scottsdale’s downtown, with four distinct districts including Old Town, is very unique, and it needs to be protected! Let there be no question about it, that while I support improved transit opportunities on our signature road, I do not support light rail on Scottsdale Road going through the heart of our Downtown!

Due to the potential costs and impacts associated with rail, the Council has assured the public that any potential rail proposal would be placed on the ballot for all of us to consider.

As we address our transportation needs, we are not just talking about roadways and public transit, either. We haven’t forgotten our non-motorized travelers in Scottsdale, and there is more every year. Energy saving and environmentally friendly means of getting around need to be highlighted and encouraged. We are expanding our extensive network of more than 95 miles of bike lanes and 65 miles of paved pathways. New bicycle, pedestrian and equestrian path improvements are under way, with more on the drawing board.

Our commitment to creating healthy and environmentally responsible options for transportation is just one way we demonstrate our awareness of the importance of protecting our land, water and air.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by DevdogAZ

Two points:

1. For much of the length of the TRAX route (south of downtown), they use old railroad right of way, which means there's no traffic to deal with and the trains can get up to speed (50 mph+) between stops.

2. While Metro trains will definitely go faster than 20 mph between stops, when you factor in the fact that they'll be on surface streets with other traffic and lights and the stops that have to be made, the average overall speed will be less than 20 mph.

That's why I'm saying that a spur from Ahwatukee that goes all the way east into Chandler before heading north into Tempe and then back west to downtown will simply be too long. I think in order for it to be attractive to Ahwatukee commuters, it would have to go as close to I-10 and South Mountain as possible and then perhaps up 48th Street and connect with the main line at Washington.

It isn't like the trains are blindly travelling along the surface streets with traffic making it a crap shoot if they actually hit a green light or have to make a stop. There is a much more comprehensive signal timing plan for the trains, giving them green light precedence and smooth sailing more often than a regular vehicle would have right now.

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by combusean

Mary Manross's State of the City address in which she addresses light rail... let's try to keep the transit-related posts in here.

She's against light rail on Scottsdale Rd through downtown ... but what about tracks on the Goldwater/Drinkwater "couplet"?

So is she just opposed to it on Scottsdale Rd. in the downtown area (i.e. south of downtown she's not opposed)? I hope so. I think the Scottsdale/Rural Rd. corridor is ideal for LRT. That bus route (72) has some of the highest ridership in the East Valley.

On another note, I don't know if officials here really know what BRT is supposed to be. There is almost nothing (aside from fancy "commuter buses") that differentiates our Rapid "BRT" routes from Express bus routes. Real BRT typically has its own right of way or lanes, much like LRT, and doesn't have to compete with other traffic as much as a standard bus route. It would be nice if we had something like this, but the Valley has never been anywhere near the "cutting edge" of transit solutions.

[DevdogAZ]

Originally Posted by PHX31

It isn't like the trains are blindly travelling along the surface streets with traffic making it a crap shoot if they actually hit a green light or have to make a stop. There is a much more comprehensive signal timing plan for the trains, giving them green light precedence and smooth sailing more often than a regular vehicle would have right now.

I realize that, but even the people promoting Metro are saying the average speed is under 20 mph.

[PHX_PD]

Someone who drives home during rush hour should figure out their average speed for comparison. With all the time you spend stopped, I wouldn't be surprised if the avg was well under 20 mph.

[combusean]

I realize that, but even the people promoting Metro are saying the average speed is under 20 mph.

I wonder how much salt ther is to this ... Stops take time, sure, but at < 20 MPH it's probably a worst-case. The light rail vehicles are traveling at posted speed limits in no traffic. I wonder if the LRV's could be rigged with a trigger device like the strobes in emergency vehicles.

If you go to az511's site, they have the average speed of the current conditions on the freeway. Freeways here are so hit or miss--maybe the east side of the 101 is the exception (traffic at 2:00? huh?)--you're either flying or you're stopped, with the problem starting in all the usual places--on the 10 east right as it curves, on the 202/10 east right before 7th st, etc.

[JI5]

Originally Posted by PHX_PD

Someone who drives home during rush hour should figure out their average speed for comparison. With all the time you spend stopped, I wouldn't be surprised if the avg was well under 20 mph.

My car calculates it.... Its on the dashboard. I usually average about 25 MPH city driving at night, and 12-15 during rush hour.

[sundevilgrad]

Another hack job...

http://www.azcentral.com/blogs/index...e=PhxPluggedin

How about doing some research on light rail before posting negative opinions? Go ask Dallas, Minneapolis, Salt Lake or Portland their opinions of the light rail!

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale

there actually is only one "101 and bell" roads. on the east side. bell road turns into frank lloyd wright at scottsdale road, and thats what hits the 101. there is a bell road that starts about a half mile north of that, but there isnt an exit for bell.

absolutely dead wrong. You can infact exit bell road either in glendale, or in scottsdale.

[JCarp]

Originally Posted by John_Vandercook

absolutely dead wrong. You can infact exit bell road either in glendale, or in scottsdale.

Not quite... While the 101 does cross Bell in Scottsdale too, there is not an exit off of the 101 for Bell, only the streets before and after it (Frank Lloyd Wright Blvd and Princess Dr respectfully). So in a way, you're both right?

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by JCarp

Not quite... While the 101 does cross Bell in Scottsdale too, there is not an exit off of the 101 for Bell, only the streets before and after it (Frank Lloyd Wright Blvd and Princess Dr respectfully). So in a way, you're both right?

NO NO NO...

I've driven out there to the Ice Den and McDowell Mountain Ranch plenty of times to know that there is infact a Bell road exit. The sign says Bell/Frank Lloyd Wright heading southbound on the 101.

click this link and look at the aerial view. Looks like an onramp to meeee....

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...09377&t=k&om=1

[PHX31]

No JCarp is right, you don't actually get on or off the freeway from Bell Rd. The on and off ramps are either directly from FLW or Princess, with connections to Bell Road. It doesn't matter if there is a Bell Road directional on the guide sign. That's there to tell the driver that if they want Bell Road they have to get off on Frank Lloyd Wright because there isn't a direct ramp at Bell.

[JCarp]

Originally Posted by John_Vandercook

NO NO NO...

I've driven out there to the Ice Den and McDowell Mountain Ranch plenty of times to know that there is infact a Bell road exit. The sign says Bell/Frank Lloyd Wright heading southbound on the 101.

click this link and look at the aerial view. Looks like an onramp to meeee....

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...09377&t=k&om=1

I used to live on FLW, and I'm pretty sure that the off ramps are for Princess and FLWB. I do concur that the southbound Princess off ramp might include Bell on the signage, but I know for a fact (look closely at the above link) that there is no off ramp directly to Bell Road from the 101.

[JCarp]

Well this has been beaten to death long enough.... I think you all would agree that it's time to move on...

[Vicelord John]

so you guys are really technical. The signs say Bell road, and you can get on or off the freeway at bell road. sheesh

[sundevilgrad]

Who f-ing cares? Really. It's not that confusing. Driving in New York/New Jersey, now that's confusing!

[nbrindley]

Try Pittsburgh at night and in the rain. bleh.

[combusean]

West Valley light rail route revised

Sean Holstege
The Arizona Republic
Mar. 14, 2007 08:14 PM

Phoenix city leaders have decided to build an initial three miles, not the full 4.6 miles of the first light-rail extension.

It's the second time in as many years that plans for the northwest line have shifted. Two years ago, the Phoenix City Council opted against sending tracks across Interstate 17 into MetroCenter Mall. Instead, the line was to end at a business park on the east side of the freeway.

The latest plan, ratified recently, would build the northwest extension in two phases. The first phase, a 3.2-mile line, would open on time in 2012 using $273million in local funds, adjusted for inflation. Completing the extension would have to wait until after 2014, when federal money could be secured, and those plans could be altered.

"We are trying to get as far as we can by 2012," said Wulf Grote, Metro's director of project development.

The new plan stops tracks at 19th and Dunlap avenues, rather than 25th Avenue and Mountain View Road. It would eliminate two planned stations west and north of the 19th and Dunlap.

City and Metro officials said they faced the choice of building all of the line late or using money exclusively from a 2000 local sales tax to finish as much of it on schedule as possible. They said the 2012 date was no longer realistic because federal requirements had grown too onerous and time-consuming.

Also, the city wanted to contract the work using a method that's preferred locally because it can be more cost-effective and quicker. That method, used to build Sky Harbor International Airport's Terminal 4, is prohibited by the Federal Transit Administration, which doles federal money to new rail projects it deems worthy.

Phoenix and Metro officials hope the FTA will agree to do in Phoenix to what it did in Salt Lake City and Denver. There, locals paid for early rail expansions in their entirety on the promise that the FTA would pony up 80percent of the money on later phases. Typically, the federal government expects locals to contribute half of the money for new rail projects, a policy that benefited Arizona when it successfully sought FTA money for the 20-mile starter track, which is now half-built.

But it's a gamble that the FTA will agree to the 80-20 offer, and early numbers show the planned northwest extension won't meet federal ridership standards. Current estimates show 6,000 to 7,000 people will board the 3.2-mile extension on a one-way trip by 2030. The extra 1.4 mile doesn't add enough projected ridership, according to federal models, although transit agencies question assumptions in those models.

It's unclear if the northwest extension will ever go to MetroCenter Mall or the business park east of I-17, Grote said.

The Arizona Department of Transportation has told Metro not to plan any crossing until the state decides how to increase capacity on I-17.

At Glendale's insistence, Metro is studying three ways to bring rail into the city: along Interstate 10 and north to University of Phoenix Stadium; west into downtown as planned, or along a new unknown route to Arizona State University West. For the first time, Metro planning maps show a dotted line to ASU West.

Ed Zuercher, deputy chief of staff to Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon, said the action does not break faith with voters, who were promised a MetroCenter line by 2012.

"We wanted to push light rail to the boundaries of our knowledge, and that's 19th and Dunlap, " Zuercher said, adding Gordon is still committed to sending trains to the MetroCenter area.

"We're ready and willing to go that last mile, when we know where it should be," Zuercher said.

Phoenix resident Bob McKnight, who has pored over Metro technical reports, has been a critic of light-rail planning from the beginning but applauded the news.

"There's a big difference between this pie-in-the-sky project that was sold to us and what actually works," he said. "The City Council is doing the right thing. I don't think haste is a virtue."

Contact the reporter at (602) 444-8334 or sean.holstege@arizonarepublic.com