Downtown Eastside - DTES Issues

[a very long weekend]

^ Your attitude may be that the mentally disturbed have an unfettered right to scare the living shit out of everyone, and maybe even some courts would agree to an extent, but if that's your "East Vancouver Socialist" values/program, you're not going to get very far. A crazy or drug-addled person shoplifting or publicly defecating or taking their clothes off or punching at the air in front of random Asian people or whatever else you're going to make an excuse for . . . it's not okay.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

^ Your attitude may be that the mentally disturbed have an unfettered right to scare the living shit out of everyone, and maybe even some courts would agree to an extent, but if that's your "East Vancouver Socialist" values/program, you're not going to get very far. A crazy or drug-addled person shoplifting or publicly defecating or taking their clothes off or punching at the air in front of random Asian people or whatever else you're going to make an excuse for . . . it's not okay.

They need help, I never said they didn't. But yelling at the sky doesn't = assault.

I'm just sick and tired of the exaggerations in this thread and the constant "I hate vancouver" crap I see the lot of post.

This is easily one of the greatest cities on the planet and I'm sick of it being dragged for what is in essence a very mild crime problem.

More needs to be done for the plight of the DTES and to help contain it, but using exaggerations helps no one, and infact may lead to the discrimination of the people who are themselves victims.

[logan5]

Nothing exemplifies the failure of the City in the DTES more than this - the sale of the Burns Block. A market rental building that will be converted to housing for the homeless. The Burns Block was suppose to be a turning point for the DTES, where functional residents could live in Vancouver's most historic neighbourhood, and start the rejuvenation process. Instead, the homeless and addict problem has forced residents out. Incredibly, the City is going to increase the addict population, ensuring that the DTES never becomes a functional neighbourhood.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/burn...ortive-housing

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by logan5

Nothing exemplifies the failure of the City in the DTES more than this - the sale of the Burns Block. A market rental building that will be converted to housing for the homeless. The Burns Block was suppose to be a turning point for the DTES, where functional residents could live in Vancouver's most historic neighbourhood, and start the rejuvenation process. Instead, the homeless and addict problem has forced residents out. Incredibly, the City is going to increase the addict population, ensuring that the DTES never becomes a functional neighbourhood.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/burn...ortive-housing

No offence but I don't think building rental housing and pushing out the homeless would solve the problems in the DTES but would instead push it out making the problem even worse.

Wouldn't you rather have social housing concentrated in the DTES over say Yaletown?

The DTES as a neighbourhood is too far gone, people don't want to live there, building market rental won't work in such a neighbourhood.

The "build it and they will come" argument doesn't work for such a neighbourhood.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

The DTES as a neighbourhood is too far gone, people don't want to live there, building market rental won't work in such a neighbourhood.

The neighborhood can still be cleaned up, however it is beyond the point where the city and coastal health alone can do it.
You as a taxpayer are the governing factor that would allow long-term institutionalizing of the worst offenders over Catch and Release and closing safe injection sites which serve little purpose beyond unsustainably supporting the addicted as opposed to monitored rehabilitation programs. The government would never commit to any programs and facilities unless they knew the majority population would support it.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

No offence but I don't think building rental housing and pushing out the homeless would solve the problems in the DTES but would instead push it out making the problem even worse.

Wouldn't you rather have social housing concentrated in the DTES over say Yaletown?

The DTES as a neighbourhood is too far gone, people don't want to live there, building market rental won't work in such a neighbourhood.

The "build it and they will come" argument doesn't work for such a neighbourhood.

Having a functional neighbourhood would be beneficial for everybody. Housing addicts in the DTES in its current condition is the worst thing you can do.

The neighbourhood can be functional, but you have to stick to a certain ratio of hard to house vs working people.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by MIPS

The neighborhood can still be cleaned up, however it is beyond the point where the city and coastal health alone can do it.
You as a taxpayer are the governing factor that would allow long-term institutionalizing of the worst offenders over Catch and Release and closing safe injection sites which serve little purpose beyond unsustainably supporting the addicted as opposed to monitored rehabilitation programs. The government would never commit to any programs and facilities unless they knew the majority population would support it.

I don't think the problem is people not supporting placing these people in institutions, I believe the problem is that it may not be constitutionally allowed to force them against their will to go to one.

The problems that lead to the DTES are so pervasive and complex that the neighbourhood has been a mess for decades, I don't think even reopening riverview will help much anymore.

Raising income assistance rates and providing housing will likely help a LOT of the people there, not everyone in the DTES is an addict or a criminal and I feel viewing them as such is unfair and deals more with stereotypes rather than reality.

Many just need housing and an aide worker and a bit of extra money to provide themselves food and the other necessities of life. I don't think it is an unreasonable demand to desire these people are provided that which is the most basic of human need.

For those who are repeat offenders, they should be in prison or institutionalized. Frankly I have no idea why the VPD engages in catch and release in the first place.

[officedweller]

Burns Block sold to BC government for homeless housing
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/burn...ortive-housing

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Maybe you don't like it but it is LITERALLY not against the law to scream in public.

The guy is mental ill, this is entirely built around ableism even if you try to wrap around the guise of public decency.

I go downtown daily, those people have always been a thing, I don't need some fucking rich suburbanites telling me how bad MY city is.

Actually it is against the law, screaming at the top of your lungs frightening people is called disturbing the peace.

So where do you draw the line?

What if that screaming starts being racist profanities? Is that the line?

Can I blast music in the middle of the night in Yaletown as loud as possible without being told to stop?

How about I just never stop honking my horn and driving around one city block? Is it against my rights to be told to stop?

Also thanks but my income is far from rich, at best it is low middle.

The position of “oh they are mentally ill so they can do anything” approach does more damage for their well being than good. It’s that bizarre catch 22 territory where misguided compassion just becomes an enabler.

The mentally ill deserve much more care than the do nothing and ignore it approach.

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by logan5

Nothing exemplifies the failure of the City in the DTES more than this - the sale of the Burns Block. A market rental building that will be converted to housing for the homeless. The Burns Block was suppose to be a turning point for the DTES, where functional residents could live in Vancouver's most historic neighbourhood, and start the rejuvenation process. Instead, the homeless and addict problem has forced residents out. Incredibly, the City is going to increase the addict population, ensuring that the DTES never becomes a functional neighbourhood.

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/burn...ortive-housing

Reliance Properties says it sold the property as the condition of the neighbourhood has deteriorated to such an extent that the building can no longer be maintained as a tenanted market housing building.

What's next.. Woodwards? Ugh.

Ron.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Actually it is against the law, screaming at the top of your lungs frightening people is called disturbing the peace.

So where do you draw the line?

What if that screaming starts being racist profanities? Is that the line?

Can I blast music in the middle of the night in Yaletown as loud as possible without being told to stop?

How about I just never stop honking my horn and driving around one city block? Is it against my rights to be told to stop?

Also thanks but my income is far from rich, at best it is low middle.

The position of “oh they are mentally ill so they can do anything” approach does more damage for their well being than good. It’s that bizarre catch 22 territory where misguided compassion just becomes an enabler.

The mentally ill deserve much more care than the do nothing and ignore it approach.

Yelling at the sky hurts no one, yelling in someones face or spewing racist profanities does harm people. I draw the line as soon as someone enters someone elses private space.

Again, I go downtown all the time, I live 3km from the DTES, I know the situation there and the situation the city is in.

My issue with this thread is the degree of exaggeration involved, the obsession with making it seem Vancouver has this deep crime problem that it just doesn't have.

DTES looks worse than it is on the ground, I lived on main and prior for 5 years and walked down hasting nearly daily, never once was I ever harmed.

[Skook]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Yelling at the sky hurts no one, yelling in someones face or spewing racist profanities does harm people. I draw the line as soon as someone enters someone elses private space.

Again, I go downtown all the time, I live 3km from the DTES, I know the situation there and the situation the city is in.

My issue with this thread is the degree of exaggeration involved, the obsession with making it seem Vancouver has this deep crime problem that it just doesn't have.

DTES looks worse than it is on the ground, I lived on main and prior for 5 years and walked down hasting nearly daily, never once was I ever harmed.

I've lived a block from pigeon park since 2006 and things are unquestionably worse now than ever. And no, I've never been harmed either, but that's a pretty low bar for measuring quality of life. There are needles and human feces left outside our elementary school regularly, even in the playground. You can call that exaggeration if you like, but I think most people would call it completely unacceptable.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Yelling at the sky hurts no one, yelling in someones face or spewing racist profanities does harm people. I draw the line as soon as someone enters someone elses private space.

Again, I go downtown all the time, I live 3km from the DTES, I know the situation there and the situation the city is in.

My issue with this thread is the degree of exaggeration involved, the obsession with making it seem Vancouver has this deep crime problem that it just doesn't have.

DTES looks worse than it is on the ground, I lived on main and prior for 5 years and walked down hasting nearly daily, never once was I ever harmed.

I do get that some people on here do exaggerate and some people do come off as insensitive (though I do think some of that is an end product of getting fed up with what seems to be an expanding problem despite all the money seemingly being thrown at it) and I even agree that as a society we will need to put up with some levels of odd behavior in public.

That said it is a slippery slope.

One guy yelling at the sky on a street corner or in a park for a few minutes mid day isn’t a problem, agreed.

5 or 10 guys frequently yelling at the sky in a relatively small area all times of the day does start to become a problem. It can affect nearby businesses, it can affect people’s rights to have peace in their own home, it can prevent people from enjoying a public space, and then all this compounds into creating a less inviting and less healthy urban environment.

Also anyone yelling at the sky frequently is obviously someone who needs medical attention and is a symptom of a failed social system. Unfortunately when left unchecked that symptom does start to snowball to the point where it becomes both a symptom and a cause of the problem.

I feel Vancouver in it is at that point.

Also just because someone doesn’t currently live in downtown or the east side doesn’t mean their viewpoint isn’t valid for conversation. Some people may not live there but work there, or have family there, or go to school there, or simply care about their city and the people in it in general, or have some other connection that you arrant aware of.

Furthermore some people living in a said area may experience the frog in slowly heated water syndrome, where it takes someone from the outside / who has been absent for a long period of time to see and give a better before and after evaluation.

Vancouver may not be the worst place for crime and homelessness, but it sure as hell can do a lot better than it currently is.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Vancouver may not be the worst place for crime and homelessness, but it sure as hell can do a lot better than it currently is.

And Vancouver's handle on the problem is rapidly deteriorating...

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

The only parts of Downtown I experience any visible crime is Granville street and the DTES, those areas have ALWAYS been rough, maybe a bit rougher over the past year but the absurdist exaggerations in this thread NEED to be confronted, they are bloody ridiculous and deep down all of you know it.

Even then I can walk down east hasting not paying attention with my bloody Iphone 11 out and NO ONE bugs me.

Thats what big crime looks like to you people? You'd be murdered in detroit, Vancouver is extremely safe.

I think what you're not realizing is that the daytime population of downtown is probably down about half since the pandemic hit. A lot of those people passively or actively do the labour of keeping downtown clean, and feeling safe. Of course people will feel less safe, they probably are less safe. That fraction of the populus was part of their safety net.

A place like Main / East Hastings can be utterly impoverished, but still feel reasonably safe because there are eyes on the street, and people will help you if you get into trouble. When you're not in a crowd though, or in range of someone you know will help you, then good luck not feeling vulnerable.

That's a pretty basic tenet of Jane Jacobs for how a community works.

If you look at Chinatown now, there's a growing amount of empty storefronts, and more vandalism than I've seen in the last decade (that I've lived nearby). It's an obvious problem when you have growing vagrancy, but the community which supports the area is obviously withering.

The merchants do much of the labour of keeping the neighbourhood a nice place. You see them literally washing turds off the sidewalk in the morning, painting over graffiti, and keeping a watchful eye. When there's less of them to spread the work around, and more vandalism you have a problem for the viability of the neighbourhood.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I think what you're not realizing is that the daytime population of downtown is probably down about half since the pandemic hit. A lot of those people passively or actively do the labour of keeping downtown clean, and feeling safe. Of course people will feel less safe, they probably are less safe. That fraction of the populus was part of their safety net.

A place like Main / East Hastings can be utterly impoverished, but still feel reasonably safe because there are eyes on the street, and people will help you if you get into trouble. When you're not in a crowd though, or in range of someone you know will help you, then good luck not feeling vulnerable.

That's a pretty basic tenet of Jane Jacobs for how a community works.

If you look at Chinatown now, there's a growing amount of empty storefronts, and more vandalism than I've seen in the last decade (that I've lived nearby). It's an obvious problem when you have growing vagrancy, but the community which supports the area is obviously withering.

The merchants do much of the labour of keeping the neighbourhood a nice place. You see them literally washing turds off the sidewalk in the morning, painting over graffiti, and keeping a watchful eye. When there's less of them to spread the work around, and more vandalism you have a problem for the viability of the neighbourhood.

This is all pandemic related though, once the economy fully opens up these problems will self correct.

[osirisboy]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Burns Block sold to BC government for homeless housing
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/burn...ortive-housing

This is the stupidest thing ever! Let’s stick a vulnerable population in the middle of a drug infested ghetto. I’m sure their lives will be very successful.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

This is all pandemic related though, once the economy fully opens up these problems will self correct.

Um... what?

This pandemic isn't going away for a very long time. Especially when new strains keep popping up every month or so.

The economy will never fully re-open, and it will certainly not fully re-open in the same way that it once did. And the psychological scars resulting from this pandemic will take even longer to heal up completely. By the time all of this healing takes place, business owners in Chinatown are going to have to make tough decisions in order to protect their livelihoods and what they have been working for their entire lives; a lot of these tough decision are going to be permanent business closures and they're not coming back when in a pandemic-less world 5 years from now (if that).

Besides that, Chinatown was in this kind of a decline anyways. The only thing that I would credit the pandemic doing is speeding up the direction that it was going in anyways. Alex's observations (and one of the many posts in this very thread) were noted 10 years ago before the pandemic and you don't have to search very far in this thread to gather all of the anecdotes about Chinatown.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by scryer

Um... what?

This pandemic isn't going away for a very long time. Especially when new strains keep popping up every month or so.

The economy will never fully re-open, and it will certainly not fully re-open in the same way that it once did. And the psychological scars resulting from this pandemic will take even longer to heal up completely. By the time all of this healing takes place, business owners in Chinatown are going to have to make tough decisions in order to protect their livelihoods and what they have been working for their entire lives; a lot of these tough decision are going to be permanent business closures and they're not coming back when in a pandemic-less world 5 years from now (if that).

Besides that, Chinatown was in this kind of a decline anyways. The only thing that I would credit the pandemic doing is speeding up the direction that it was going in anyways. Alex's observations (and one of the many posts in this very thread) were noted 10 years ago before the pandemic and you don't have to search very far in this thread to gather all of the anecdotes about Chinatown.

I didn't realize 2 months was a "Very long time"

You're out to lunch if you think the scars of this pandemic will last longer than at most another 12 months, the businesses which leave will be replaced. The market will adapt to the future.

Everything will be normal completely by the end of the year, if you think covid is bad enough to last longer than that than all I can say is you're really delusional. This entire pandemic has been made out to be thos grand crisis on the same level as the great depression or world war 2. Don't make me laugh, the meme virus will be gone in Canada within a year and cases will be low enough by july 1st to make any of this shit moot.

I'll say this, regardless I'm burning my fucking masks on July 1st regardless of what happens, sick of this shit.
Rant over.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

This is the stupidest thing ever! Let’s stick a vulnerable population in the middle of a drug infested ghetto. I’m sure their lives will be very successful.

Bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Lots of programs are centered down there for these people, and many might not be too mobile.

I agree there are big problems, I'm not sure what the answer is.