Rapid Transit

[ScreamingViking]

One more point about an elevated walkway system: the buildings that are attached need to include interior corridors for the flow-through. So office and residential buildings must be designed to account for that, and it may not be easy to retrofit many of them if we ever wanted to build such a network in Hamilton.

I don't know why we'd want to. I agree with Innsertnamehere -- functionally they're the same as an underground, but they also take people off the street. We don't have the climate and weather issues to warrant them.

If Hamilton wanted to protect pedestrians, a series of connected awnings above the busiest sidewalks would be the cheapest and easiest thing to implement, while keeping the shops and services and restaurants closely accessible to those people.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

What? functionally that's the same as underground connections.

Yes, functionality-wise - I'm thinking cost though. I'm thinking digging pathways underground everywhere would be more expensive though - but maybe I'm wrong.

[TheRitsman]

This video does a good job of explaining why the 20th century obsession with raised paths is a bad idea:

https://youtu.be/TvCUgWnptUc

[ScreamingViking]

Those things are desolate. No amenities? Who is skulking about waiting to jump? Who would help if that happened, or if a person fell and got injured? No wonder nobody wants to use them.

I'm surprised they haven't at least put some planters in the older sections, green things up a bit. There's one short part of the video starting at 5:12 where 8 appear to be filled with sad looking plants. But the new sections, while having greenery and funky design, still don't seem to connect to anything that pedestrians would want to get to so I can't seem them being much more than urban art.

[matt602]

Yeah I'm more of a fan of underground pathways than above ground pedways, maybe because they remind me of growing up in Toronto near the subway? I dunno. I can agree that of all the options I prefer a bustling and lively sidewalk though.

[Beedok]

A) I think it will be summers, more than winters, that will have people wanting interior connections soon. More at more days with a Humidex of 40+ as global warming rolls in.
B) I honestly still don’t get the ‘oh, it takes people off the streets’ argument. Does it lead to more or fewer kilometres of walking per capita? If an interior walkway system meant there wasn’t a single person on a sidewalk, but also meant that people were walking 5x more, surely that’s better for everyone’s health, the environment, and so on.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Beedok

A) I think it will be summers, more than winters, that will have people wanting interior connections soon. More at more days with a Humidex of 40+ as global warming rolls in.
B) I honestly still don’t get the ‘oh, it takes people off the streets’ argument. Does it lead to more or fewer kilometres of walking per capita? If an interior walkway system meant there wasn’t a single person on a sidewalk, but also meant that people were walking 5x more, surely that’s better for everyone’s health, the environment, and so on.

Point taken about the summer heat. I used the PATH mostly in summer and winter for the temperature control.

Re: B, it's not about the active transportation. It's about healthy streets and local economic activity. Take people off the street, and you affect the retail and restaurants that depend on those who are walking. Streets feel less safe, and likely are because there are fewer people on the lookout. Who wants to go a place that looks that dead?

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Re: B, it's not about the active transportation. It's about healthy streets and local economic activity. Take people off the street, and you affect the retail and restaurants that depend on those who are walking. Streets feel less safe, and likely are because there are fewer people on the lookout. Who wants to go a place that looks that dead?

Shops can be connected to pedestrian corridor system. You’d need some renovation for extending it into existing areas, but in in the large chunks of Hamilton’s downtown that are flattened parking lots right now? Those could be developed for a system of pedestrian corridors. Just like alleyways, covered streets, and boardwalks the world over, pedestrian only areas can be some of the most attractive and thriving shopping options around, and have been successful for centuries.



As for the streets feeling less safe, if everyone is walking on the indoor system, what does it matter? Back alleys feel unsafe too, so you don’t walk there. You’re safer where there’s more pedestrians, so build a cityscape that encourages more pedestrians, rather than trying to convince more pedestrians to use the existing cityscape that’s been built for cars.

[TheRitsman]

Sounds like you're talking about a mall. Not sure Hamilton's downtown needs any more malls...

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Shops can be connected to pedestrian corridor system. You’d need some renovation for extending it into existing areas, but in in the large chunks of Hamilton’s downtown that are flattened parking lots right now? Those could be developed for a system of pedestrian corridors. Just like alleyways, covered streets, and boardwalks the world over, pedestrian only areas can be some of the most attractive and thriving shopping options around, and have been successful for centuries.

As for the streets feeling less safe, if everyone is walking on the indoor system, what does it matter? Back alleys feel unsafe too, so you don’t walk there. You’re safer where there’s more pedestrians, so build a cityscape that encourages more pedestrians, rather than trying to convince more pedestrians to use the existing cityscape that’s been built for cars.

The markets that have been around for centuries have had centuries to grow into what they are, many of them organically (like that Morocco example, I'd think). Must have been a quiet period for the Osaka mall because it doesn't exactly look like it's thriving from that image.

What would be the cost of all this, versus the cost of making our existing streets more pedestrian-friendly and less auto-focused? Does it make sense in that case? Integrating such ideas into new builds on blank-slate blocks can be done, and probably reasonably (likely with some concessions to the builders to incorporate interior pedways and commercial units... it's a cost to them to account for that). To do so in existing buildings, especially older ones, would probably be very costly and intrusive.

It would be interesting to visit the Hamilton of the 1950s and 60s, when the city was booming and before its leaders felt the need to re-invent the downtown, before suburban retail was as big a thing. Was it "successful" despite it hosting a blend of pedestrians and cars and transit?

[Beedok]

The Japanese example has a healthy stream of people using it? It’s just not at a crush capacity?

As for existing streets, making some of them pedestrian only seems like a decent first step. King is set to be such a mess to drive down through the core soon that it would probably be easy to convert post LRT. And, obviously, adding new layers of pedestrian activity will take time and the addition of further residential density, but I’m just confused by how so many urbanists today seem to somehow think ‘pedestrian only areas sheltered from the elements’ are bad for pedestrians and that the basic idea of malls is some evil invention of the auto age, rather than a thing that’s existed for centuries in historic town centres of the old world.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I’m just confused by how so many urbanists today seem to somehow think ‘pedestrian only areas sheltered from the elements’ are bad for pedestrians and that the basic idea of malls is some evil invention of the auto age, rather than a thing that’s existed for centuries in historic town centres of the old world.

It's not about them being bad for pedestrians (London example aside... that was bloody awful). It's about economically healthy downtowns, complete streets that have vitality, and people connecting with the outside environment.

Malls aren't evil. We've just made them so auto-centric here in North America, or built too many big ones in places where the demand didn't justify them in the long run. And they competed with, not complemented, the street retail.

[Markus83]

BRIEF: Ontario Regulation for Hamilton LRT Issued
Article via ThePublicRecord

https://www.thepublicrecord.ca/2021/...on-lrt-issued/

[bigguy1231]

For those interested. Dundas street BRT.

https://www.insauga.com/mississauga-...zwPb6CkLZviPu0

[urban_planner]

I could read the article behind the spec paywall but apparently Bratina is now going to work towards seeing LRT completed. I'm guessing he's talked to people in the city and realized more people actually want it.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by urban_planner

I could read the article behind the spec paywall but apparently Bratina is now going to work towards seeing LRT completed. I'm guessing he's talked to people in the city and realized more people actually want it.

It was always an excuse to bail on being a higher level politician so he could run for mayor. The dude's an idiot. He'll eat whatever shit he needs to, to win and then shit his own bed.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by urban_planner

I could read the article behind the spec paywall but apparently Bratina is now going to work towards seeing LRT completed. I'm guessing he's talked to people in the city and realized more people actually want it.

I read the Spec article on it and it appears more so that he's acknowledging that he can't stop it any more and that he has to work with it.. his focus is apparently now on "controlling operating costs" - i.e. pledging to operate it at a barebones frequency to save a bit of $$

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

his focus is apparently now on "controlling operating costs" - i.e. pledging to operate it at a barebones frequency to save a bit of $$

Yep. And doing that would give him the "I told you so!" he craves.

He's such a political dinosaur now. I'm hopeful people tune him out, but I wager there's a substantial number who vote who still believe in him over the alternatives.

[SteelTown]

Survey backs city-run LRT option over private operator
The survey was released by a coalition of labour and transit advocates ahead of a council debate on operating options for Hamilton’s long-planned light rail line.

https://www.thespec.com/news/council...6ee1476f9.html

A new survey of Hamilton residents shows a majority of respondents back the idea of a light rail transit line run by the city, rather than a private operator.

The survey of around 1,000 adults conducted by Mainstreet Research in February was commissioned by the Keep Transit Public Coalition, which is pushing for a LRT run by the city’s own Hamilton Street Railway.

[catcher_of_cats]

I would assume that this survey did not have unbiased questions to skew that results that they were paying for.