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View Poll Results: Would you support amalgamation?
Yes - Burnaby only 17 11.72%
Yes - Burnaby and New Westminster 30 20.69%
Yes - Burnaby, New Westminster and the NE 6 4.14%
Yes - Burnaby, New Westminster and Richmond 7 4.83%
Yes - All of the above mentioned communities 32 22.07%
No - I like things just the way they are! 44 30.34%
Other (Please specifiy) 9 6.21%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 8:49 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Question The (old) Metro Toronto model ?? It might work here.

Metropolitan Toronto, from Etobicoke in the West to Scarborough in the East is now ONE contiguous city, and it works for them. After all, including places like Mississauga, Thornhill, and Bramalea, the Toronto area is about 6,000,000, making it larger than Houston in population and therefore the fourth largest metro in North America (it's true)!
*
OK, Vancouver isn't nearly there yet, but perhaps we are ripe and ready for what Toronto did back around 1964 or so - create a two-tiered level of government; one for the entire metro region, and another at the level of local boroughs.
*
When Metropolitan Toronto was created, there was the original City of Toronto, plus the boroughs of Etobicoke, York, North York, East York, and Scarborough, occupying that large trapezoid on Lake Ontario.
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**
Something similar could be done with Vancouver, creating Metropolitain Vancouver, with an overarching government, and having the boroughs of Burnaby, North Vancouver, Coquitlam, New Westminster, Richmond, and maybe Delta, and even (if they'd be humble enough to join) ... West Vancouver.
**
I'm not saying this is THE way to go; it's just a suggestion . . . . food for thought, if you will.
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  #42  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 9:09 PM
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I think Toronto is a perfect example of why we should NOT go for amalgamation. David Miller is the worse mayor in the country.
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  #43  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 9:11 PM
The Lonely Tanner The Lonely Tanner is offline
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De-amalgamation. Coquitlam should be split in two (Millardville [Blue Mountain] and Coquitlam) as they really are very different communities.

Burnaby split into 2 or 3 with the #1 & #7 highways as the boarders.

East Van should be split off so that they stop getting shafted by Point Grey politicians. Rather than bringing in outsiders to fix it, why not place the authority on the community itself?

Amalgamation doesn't always lead to significant cost savings, and then there is always the issue of expansion beyond the Metro region (sprawl). It is forced to become a continuous process of expansion, rather than focusing on each individual local community.

Although I am all for a regional electoral body to monitor elections around here. A few years ago I did a research paper on the adherence to electoral laws within Metro Vancouver; the Sun ran an article after our last muni elections in Van. Most communities don't know the laws at all, and a few actually destroyed or lost the paperwork from previous elections.
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  #44  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 9:17 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Originally Posted by awvan View Post
I think Toronto is a perfect example of why we should NOT go for amalgamation. David Miller is the worse mayor in the country.
I wasn't referring to the CURRENT configuration of the city of Toronto. I was referring to the 60s though 90s configuration of a city and (in Toronto's case) five metreopolitaon boroughs, each of which had its own mayor, such as Mel Lastman in North York (many years ago now). One megacity, the way Toronto has become, DOES indeed open the door to abuse.
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  #45  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 9:23 PM
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Originally Posted by awvan View Post
I think Toronto is a perfect example of why we should NOT go for amalgamation. David Miller is the worse mayor in the country.
Your basing your opinion on one shitty mayor out of a 40 year success story? Surely you could come up with more substantial reasons as to why you don't like the Toronto model.
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  #46  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2009, 9:36 PM
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I'm conflicted about this. Born and raised in Richmond, admittedly I don't know exactly how things go in all of the regions of Metro Vancouver, but here's how things look from here:

It seems to me that the City of Richmond planning and operations are above average, especially when compared to City of Vancouver and some of the other suburbs. From that perspective, amalgamation can only worsen things for Richmond, there is no prospect of amalgamation improving anything here.

Despite that, it's a nice dream that we could one day eliminate these arbitrary boundaries and save considerably on beaurocracies.
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  #47  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2009, 3:18 AM
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Having two elected levels of local government might be better than the one elected and one (or more) unelected levels of local government we have now. I think decisions are best made by the people who will most feel their consequences. Most of the responsibilities of municipal councils basically have a local impact: zoning, community planning, local parks, district energy systems, etc. These details don't really belong in the hands of a centralized regional bureaucracy.

I agree that in some cases de-amalgamation could be pursued so that each regional and sub-regional centre is its own municipality. At the same time, a separate elected regional government could make decisions that affect the whole region, basically Metro Vancouver (combined with Translink) under a directly elected board.

Most of the older cities are smaller and already have one regional centre: Port Coquitlam, Port Moody, North Vancouver City, New Westminster, Langley City, and pre-amalgamation Vancouver. Other newer cities have multiple centres, especially Surrey, Delta, and Burnaby that could be split. Vancouver also has multiple centres. Some examples of new municipalities would be:
Tsawwassen
Ladner
White Rock would be expanded to cover the entire Semiahmoo peninsula
Whalley
Guildford
Newton
Scott Road/Nordel
Fleetwood
Cloverdale
Maillardville and the Coquitlam side of Lougheed would be split off of Coquitlam
Oakridge, West Point Grey and Kits, and everything East of Clark/Knight would be split off of Vancouver
Burnaby would be split in four: Brentwood, Lougheed, Edmonds, Metrotown
UBC would be incorporated

There would likely be about 40 municipalities, none with more than 10% of the regional population. They would be too small and narrowly focused to individually influence regional decisions or work as a bloc, especially against an elected regional board.
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  #48  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2009, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by awvan View Post
I think Toronto is a perfect example of why we should NOT go for amalgamation. David Miller is the worse mayor in the country.
Although I tend to agree with you about David Miller, I am struggling to find the relationship between amalgamation and him.
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  #49  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2009, 10:04 PM
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I just dread the thought that the Metro Vancouver as a whole could fall under the reign of someone like Miller. In most cases I'd rather that each area have control of their own destiny. I say in most cases because in some cases (mainly I think of North Van City/North Van District) the geographic boundaries seem useless and the overlap of services (Fire/Maintenance Crews are two huge standouts) seem to be a total waste. Also, the combined population of those two municipalities is still far below what other municipalities currently are. The demographics are very similar between the two and from a planning perspective I think the whole of North Van could benefit.

I don't see much benefit for Richmond joining anyone, nor Surrey. From dealing with different city departments from across the lower mainland, I have come to appreciate some much more than others. I think the city of Burnaby is quite well run, and wouldn't like to see them bogged down by joining the city of Vancouver. I worry about the political makeup of a combined Metro Vancouver city council and it's influence over policy. I think it is easier to change small bureaucracies than large ones, and find large ones get further bloated more easily.
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  #50  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2009, 10:20 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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I come here with two documents to illustrate my ideas. They have text in them so it shouldn't be too hard to follow along. =O

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...olicialmap.svg
(yes... I spelled it wrong >.<)



I'm not sure about the success of having too many small cities, each with their own departments and such. Again some people have said that some cities are really well managed. My map is more like a mix of both.... Some small cities and some large ones.

Last edited by Millennium2002; Sep 16, 2009 at 10:55 AM.
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  #51  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2009, 4:51 PM
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i remember mayor larry had this plan for a north of the fraser amalgamation that i thought made some good sense, combining burnaby and new westminster with the vanistan.

if you ask me, the endowment lands should have been made part of vancouver years ago, not only for the political representation and all that, but to check the ubc administration's nearly untrammeled power over the built form.
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  #52  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2009, 5:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
I'm conflicted about this. Born and raised in Richmond, admittedly I don't know exactly how things go in all of the regions of Metro Vancouver, but here's how things look from here:

It seems to me that the City of Richmond planning and operations are above average, especially when compared to City of Vancouver and some of the other suburbs. From that perspective, amalgamation can only worsen things for Richmond, there is no prospect of amalgamation improving anything here.

Despite that, it's a nice dream that we could one day eliminate these arbitrary boundaries and save considerably on beaurocracies.
Richmond's planning and operations are above average? It's okay in my view. I'm not sure I agree with amalgamation, as much as that would give the City of Vancouver as a "larger" metropolis (as of right now, Vancouver is only 600,000 large - that's an average city population) reputation. I also like the distinctiveness that each city brings to the table, and wouldn't want to lose that in amalgamation. Toronto's model is nice, and they are a huge metropolis, but Vancouver and Toronto are sooo different, and so are much of their suburbs.

Burnaby is probably one of the best run cities here in the lower mainland. I was there the other night, and saw the two Rogers office towers. Weird to see two newer office towers in a suburb instead of having them in downtown Van O_o

Richmond has a ways to go still. Planning and operations of the city could be better, but I believe that they will get there - needs time, just like any other city. It's a different place to be sure, but Richmond's got so much potential, considering that it was only given "city" status back in 1990. In 19 years, the city has come a long way. It'll go even further the next decade or so! I think there will be major transformation along No.3 rd. I heard that the Bridgeport area was in the planning of the city to be the entertainment district? That'd be pretty exciting to have.
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  #53  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2009, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by SpongeG View Post
i could see the tri-cities joing forces but the rest is best as is
As somebody who has lived in the Tri-Cities almost by whole life, I cannot see it ever happening.

These communities are much more distinct than the outside observer realizes. Coquitlam is the main hub of the area, is more diverse and is the a choice destination for new many new immigrants. There appears to be less demand for pedestrian friendly communities and retention of natural areas.

Port Moody is the most affluent of the 3 and the bedroom community of the area, and home many "artistic" types, galleries and many transplanted downtown yuppies in the city centre. It values its private police force, it's walkability and rich rail history.

Port Coquitlam has blue collar roots and the labour force is still primarly industrial, and no offense to anyone who lives there, would be considered by most to be the least desirable of the 3. It's also been a stronghold in left wing politics (not unlike W Coquitlam although the growing population on the N side has shifted the area poltically as a whole).

Then throw Anmore and Belcarra into the mix, where they will defend their "Bowen Island like" lifestyle until their death.

All these differences create a vastly different political landscape and urban design style for each community, creating little demand for amalgamation.

And as a Port Moody resident, I enjoy the uniqueness of this community compared to the rest of Metro Vancouver. And I certainly don't want the Vancouver attitude of "let's ban bottled water and tax the snot out of vehicle owners and private business owners" to be permeating into my community thank you very much.

The only amalgamations worth considering IMO, are
Burnaby - Vancouver. Similar demographics and similar need for further densification.
Langley City - Langley Township. Langley Twp is no longer a rural area, and the distinction between the two used to be urban vs. rural. That no longer exists.
North Van District - North Van City. The average person doesn't even notice a separation which makes you wonder why it's there.
Maple Ridge - Pitt Meadows. Even with the GEB, this area is falling behind ecomomically compared to other eastern suburbs. They should merge to strengthen their economy and attract more business.
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  #54  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2009, 8:16 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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Hmm... are Anmore and Belcarra somewhat similar or different? They are like the smallest municipalities in the region. =O My map has them amalganated (as well as North Van).
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  #55  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2009, 12:46 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Arrow please think it over, anyway . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake View Post
As somebody who has lived in the Tri-Cities almost by whole life, I cannot see it ever happening.

These communities are much more distinct than the outside observer realizes. Coquitlam is the main hub of the area, is more diverse and is the a choice destination for new many new immigrants. There appears to be less demand for pedestrian friendly communities and retention of natural areas.

Port Moody is the most affluent of the 3 and the bedroom community of the area, and home many "artistic" types, galleries and many transplanted downtown yuppies in the city centre. It values its private police force, it's walkability and rich rail history.

Port Coquitlam has blue collar roots and the labour force is still primarly industrial, and no offense to anyone who lives there, would be considered by most to be the least desirable of the 3. It's also been a stronghold in left wing politics (not unlike W Coquitlam although the growing population on the N side has shifted the area poltically as a whole).

Then throw Anmore and Belcarra into the mix, where they will defend their "Bowen Island like" lifestyle until their death.

All these differences create a vastly different political landscape and urban design style for each community, creating little demand for amalgamation.

And as a Port Moody resident, I enjoy the uniqueness of this community compared to the rest of Metro Vancouver. And I certainly don't want the Vancouver attitude of "let's ban bottled water and tax the snot out of vehicle owners and private business owners" to be permeating into my community thank you very much.

The only amalgamations worth considering IMO, are
Burnaby - Vancouver. Similar demographics and similar need for further densification.
Langley City - Langley Township. Langley Twp is no longer a rural area, and the distinction between the two used to be urban vs. rural. That no longer exists.
North Van District - North Van City. The average person doesn't even notice a separation which makes you wonder why it's there.
Maple Ridge - Pitt Meadows. Even with the GEB, this area is falling behind ecomomically compared to other eastern suburbs. They should merge to strengthen their economy and attract more business.
____________________________________________________________
I appreciate your point of view, and especially your desire to keep your district run the way it is, to preserve its character, and not having a "metro" type government forcing new taxes and restrictions onto you. I think that's a natural feeling that most people have who love and live in their own community.

However, they key factor (one of them, anyway) in a two-tiered (hypothetical) "Metropolitan Vancouver" government embracing all regions is
HOW powers are allocated.

Too much power in certain domains concentrated at the central level is going to interfere with formerly well-run municipalities, intrude, and make people angry, of course. The example about "let's tax the snot out of vehicle owners and private business" (sic) is a good one.

Conversely, if local powers and metroplitan legal powers are judiciously divided, a classic example would be letting Port Moody keep its own police force, with an arrangement for overlap with other police forces only under certain conditions/ circumstances, and a margin for flexibility to change those divisions of powers within given parameters.

Other things, like mass transit, road planning, sewage disposal, and anything else you care to name that needs a co-ordinated, mutually co-operating GROUP approach, and /or a "Holistic" (not to sound like an ex-hippy) approach- - - - the overarching, metropolitan governement might be able to get done more efficaciously.

This is a complex issue, and has certain parallels with federal-provincial distribution of power, only on a smaller, more localised level. (Otherwise stated, it's a toughie).

It is also complex, and has to be transparent, presented in full to the people of ALL districts concerned, voted upon and NOT rammed down people's throats, in order to work.

But if we get it right - and learning from other cities is a good way to start, it might get the Vancouver-Lower Mainland region ticking over and working more smoothly, more efficiently, more cohesively and more productively.

There will always be people who are FOR it and there will always be people who are AGAINST it, either for concrete reasons, or just in principle.

But, in my opinion, it is worth examining before trashing it, or jumping too quickly into a hybrid scheme that has too many flaws due to lack of thorough research beforehand.
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  #56  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2009, 6:38 PM
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While I think amalgamation would be good for things like Police, Fire, Sewer, Water and Garbage. It would help in those areas.

As for zoning I'm kind of on the fence. I don't mind if they would want to zone my area in Vancouver to multi residential. What I am against is lets say forcing me to sell and telling me I have to pay a higher price to buy the new Condo or Townhouse they are building where my house was.

I live near knight & 41st and I'm scareed of the fact that what happens if the South of the Fraser communities try and force Vancouver to turn Knight street into a Freeway. Just so that they can get to Downtown faster. It may not happen. But I would be extremly if they ever tried that.
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  #57  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2009, 7:37 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan_kuan View Post
Hmm... are Anmore and Belcarra somewhat similar or different? They are like the smallest municipalities in the region. =O My map has them amalganated (as well as North Van).
Similar in the sense of that they both feel detached from the city, are located in park like settings and are both the wealthiest communities in MV based on incomes (Small sample size when compared to a place like West Van).

Different in the sense that homes in Belcarra are typically smaller, older and on small steep lots. Most have waterfront access with docks.

Anmore has newer homes, is experiencing faster growth and most homes are located on at least half acre lots. Anmore is only 10 minutes away from services in Port Moody and Coquitlam, while Belcarra is double that.

But ya, they are pretty much the same.
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  #58  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 5:20 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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just to add some thought...

Reorganization of Boundaries

The tedious part was actually the suburbs where I was trying to separate the farming areas from the developed areas... the jagged boundary is the result. >.<
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  #59  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 6:00 AM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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^ Do you have a writeup explaining your reasons for reorganizing the boundaries in that fashion? It looks worse than what we have in most respects, IMO. Tri-cities become quad-cities? Langley and Surrey partitioned into oblivion? Why? Surely we could consolidate them into larger units of at least 300,000 to 500,000 people in most cases....
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  #60  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2009, 6:25 AM
Millennium2002 Millennium2002 is offline
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Hmm... I split them up based on if there was already a natural dividing line as is seen on Google Maps. For example:

- White Rock and Cloverdale are separated from Surrey by farmland
- Cloverdale and Langley City I think are still distinct cities with historical town centres. They could be merged though.
- Langley Township is split in two, as Walnut Grove and Fort Langley are separate from Aldergrove. The same could be said for WG and FL but I kept them together due to their low populations. In return Aldergrove takes up a whole swath of borderline suburban-rural development in the East Langley area.
- Delta and Tsawwassen are separate, but Delta retains a western stretch of land due to some boathouses near the bridge to Reifel Island (also some waterfront industry in the area)

* The key idea behind the boundaries is to mainly limit or slow suburban growth by placing more farmland outside of municipal boundaries (and instead in the hands of the regional district). Keep in mind though that they still have a lot of room to expand suburbs if they wish even with the new arrangement... the boundary zig-zags through some farmlands as it's hard to distinguish between suburbia and farmland, especially if the suburbia looks more like rural development (e.g. large plots but many houses in blocks).


- Coquitlam and Malliardville are also distinct, with Mundy Park and the power lines acting as the division place. The same can be said for the northern and southern halves of Port Coquitlam (split by the rail yard). However instead of splitting into 4 municipalities I joined the northern half of Port Coquitlam into Coquitlam.

The end result is messy but it may help in allowing more local interests to be heard and also help in preserving some pieces of farmland.
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