Racism in Ottawa

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That piece of shit Montsion has been found not guilty. What a f-ing surprise.



So what the judge is saying is, Abdi would have died that day no matter what? Getting beat to a pulp with motorcycle gloves had nothing to do with his death? The altercation had noting to do with his death?

I am not in any way trying to justify the actions, but I believe it is hard to establish causality beyond a reasonable doubt in such a case. He died of a heart attack, it could have been because of getting beat up, but also could have been the exertion from running from the cops, the stress of being arrested, being off of his antipsychotic medication, or something else.

[Acajack]

At least in Canada, a pretty high percentage of cops involved in the deaths of civilians, regardless of the outcome, never return to work.

A friend of a friend was involved in a shootout with a really bad dude several years ago. The suspect had just killed 1 or 2 people minutes before. The cop killed the bad guy, was not injured himself and was fairly quickly cleared of any wrongdoing.

But even today he isn't back at work as a cop. Not sure if he is on long-term disability for PTSD or if he's found another line of work.

After the stress of the incident itself, the trial and the media frenzy over several years, I'd be very surprised if this officer returns to patrolling the streets.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not in any way trying to justify the actions, but I believe it is hard to establish causality beyond a reasonable doubt in such a case. He died of a heart attack, it could have been because of getting beat up, but also could have been the exertion from running from the cops, the stress of being arrested, being off of his antipsychotic medication, or something else.

As you note, criminal conviction is a different standard of proof. That doesn't mean that the cop is off the hook in a civil context, or for action by his employer. It's hard to believe that there was something he did (wearing those gloves perhaps) that fell short of the standards of conduct for police officers.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I am not in any way trying to justify the actions, but I believe it is hard to establish causality beyond a reasonable doubt in such a case. He died of a heart attack, it could have been because of getting beat up, but also could have been the exertion from running from the cops, the stress of being arrested, being off of his antipsychotic medication, or something else.

Maybe, maybe we could argue that his death may not be a direct result of the altercation, but there's no ambiguity that beating up an unarmed man with motorcycle gloves constitutes aggravated assault. And the motorcycle gloves are not police issue; yes his supervisor bought them for him, but that doesn't make them police issue. When you join the force, you get your uniform, boots, leather gloves, gun, pepper spray, night stick and hand cuffs. They don't give you motorcycle gloves (unless you're a motorcycle cop). If anything, his supervisor should be disciplined for approving gloves that are not police issue.

A not guilty plea on manslaughter is one thing, but aggravated assault and assault with a weapon, much harder to justify.

[rocketphish]

Montsion may yet get convicted... there's a civil lawsuit pending against him, which can now proceed.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Montsion may yet get convicted... there's a civil lawsuit pending against him, which can now proceed.

I wonder what the track record is like in Canada for successful civil action after a failed criminal prosecution?

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder what the track record is like in Canada for successful civil action after a failed criminal prosecution?

Good question. I don't know what the odds are.

If there are any lawyers here, please step in, but it is my understanding that because the burden of proof is lower in a civil trial, then the circumstances that yielded a failed criminal conviction can still lead to successful civil conviction.

"In a civil suit, the plaintiff must prove that it is probable that the defendant is legally responsible, or liable, because a civil case is decided on a balance of probabilities. This is the standard of proof for a civil case, just as the standard of proof for a criminal case is proof beyond a reasonable doubt."

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/just/08.html

[acottawa]

Establishing causation is still a challenge for a civil suit. Plaintiffs would have to establish that the balance of probabilities point to the punches being the cause of the heart failure, and not previous blows from other officers, exertion from the run, the psychotic episode, etc. It would be different if the cause of death were brain injuries inflicted by the punches.

Even if cops or race had nothing to do with this (i.e. someone died of a heart attack during a bar fight) it would be almost impossible to establish either criminal or civil liability.

[phil235]

It's not unusual for someone to be acquitted in a criminal trial and still face civil liability. As mentioned, the standard of proof is a balance of probabilities, which is much lower than the reasonable doubt standard that must be met for a criminal conviction. Also, someone pursuing a civil suit would only need to show that the officer's negligence contributed to the death, and any related damages, not that it caused the death. To the extent that the officer breached any protocols or procedures, there would be a basis for a case. That said, if he is acting in the course of his employment, the employer would be on the hook, and likely by extension, an insurer. My guess is that we will never know, as the organization/insurer will settle this before it ever gets to a trial.

[JCL]

For anyone are interested in reading the full written decision Cst. Daniel Montsion, it's been published: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/do...20oncj464.html

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by JCL

For anyone are interested in reading the full written decision Cst. Daniel Montsion, it's been published: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/do...20oncj464.html

Nah better just to be outraged based on no facts.

[YOWflier]

A must read for anyone with a strong opinion on this matter either way.