Canada Rankings

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Indeed. This is the business model that keeps the doors open for many domestic students, and the revenues generated by foreign students has become even more important given slashes to tertiary education funding by many provincial governments and/or tuition freezes.

I generally agree with this statement, but with the proviso that this paradigm is mostly true for domestic undergraduate students. I wonder if having so many international students however doesn't increase competition for the limited number of postgraduate slots available in the country, thus reducing access to otherwise qualified Canadian born students to masters and doctoral level programs.

I don't know the answer to this (it's only a hunch), and, since you are an academic Molson, I honestly would like your opinion on this. Is this true or not???

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I generally agree with this statement, but with the proviso that this paradigm is mostly true for domestic undergraduate students. I wonder if having so many international students however doesn't increase competition for the limited number of postgraduate slots available in the country, thus reducing access to otherwise qualified Canadian born students to masters and doctoral level programs.

I don't know the answer to this (it's only a hunch), and, since you are an academic Molson, I honestly would like your opinion on this. Is this true or not???

Are there reports of Canadian students being unable to gain admission to postgraduate programs for which they qualify?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Are there reports of Canadian students being unable to gain admission to postgraduate programs for which they qualify?

That's what I would like to know. One of my sons is working on a Masters in Mechanical Engineering, and while he is doing fine, there are a limited number of faculty available to act as preceptors. More international competition for these post grad research positions might make things tougher for Canadian students.

By and large, international students are highly qualified and highly motivated. Many of them are studying at Canadian universities so that they can use this as a springboard to stay in the country post graduation, and want the best possible qualifications, which would mean seeking graduate work at the country's most prestigious institutions, perhaps limiting opportunities for Canadian students.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by YusufChowdhury

You know what I find peculiar? If you look at the times higher education rankings, the more prestigious universities tend to have a higher proportion of international students. Compared with the top 50 universities, U of T at rank 18 actually has a lower than average international student percentage.

Edit: Here's a link to the list

U of T has 22% International students which puts it about the same as U of Saskatchewan even though U of T has twice as many students. 66% of University of Saskatchewan students come directly from the province it's self. I was surprised to see Ryerson has only 5% International students!

https://healthsciences.usask.ca/news...-in-201819.php

U of Regina with 2/3rds as many students as U of S but has 24% International students. It hasn't always been this way, the number of International students at U of R has quadrupled in the last ten years.

https://www.uregina.ca/orp/statistic...headcount.html


http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-2020/Canada.html

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I generally agree with this statement, but with the proviso that this paradigm is mostly true for domestic undergraduate students. I wonder if having so many international students however doesn't increase competition for the limited number of postgraduate slots available in the country, thus reducing access to otherwise qualified Canadian born students to masters and doctoral level programs.

I don't know the answer to this (it's only a hunch), and, since you are an academic Molson, I honestly would like your opinion on this. Is this true or not???

At the graduate level, rarely is it the case that foreign students would edge out otherwise qualified domestic students. I am currently at a research intensive university in Canada, and I have worked at 3 other such places in the past, and my experiences on admissions committees have been very similar at all four institutions. We have a very detailed admissions procedure, which ranks applicants on a large number of criteria. To be honest, the competition for high quality foreign students is usually more severe than it is for high quality domestic students....the former get offers from other top schools in and outside of Canada, with stipends, scholarships, etc., more so than their domestic counterparts. Also, for most graduate programs, we don't operate on a fixed pie model (e.g., there are only 30 spots this year, and if the top 18 are taken by int'l students, that leaves only 12 for domestic students).
Without the monies brought in by foreign students, the number of spots for domestic students, in many graduate programs and at many universities in Canada, would decline. Gone are the days when 80% of the funding came from governments (it has dropped below 50% for the operating budgets of Canadian universities).

[ssiguy]

This idea that foreign students don't take up domestic students spots in nonsense.

The foreign students are overwhelmingly very wealthy which is why they score so well on their high school grades. It's much easier to do better at school when you go to the elitist schools in your own country, probably have a tutor, and don't have to work P/T while going to school to save for your university education. I am also very dubious about some of the students in these 3rd world countries as to whether they earned their grades or were given them by generous parents.

Needing 90% to get into general arts is very elitist because we all know that kids from wealthy families do far better at school than kids from lower income ones. There should not be a single Canadian student applying for university with at B- average who should be refused entry while there is a single international student allowed in.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This idea that foreign students don't take up domestic students spots in nonsense.

The foreign students are overwhelmingly very wealthy which is why they score so well on their high school grades. It's much easier to do better at school when you go to the elitist schools in your own country, probably have a tutor, and don't have to work P/T while going to school to save for your university education. I am also very dubious about some of the students in these 3rd world countries as to whether they earned their grades or were given them by generous parents.

Source: Your ass.

[MolsonExport]

Incoming high school averages are around 90%. Grade inflation is rampant in HS. Students coming out of HS with B- averages are not really that common anymore (and would struggle very badly in most university programs). SSI, where do you get your information? It is not corroborated by what is happening on the ground here.

There are a lot more university spots than there were decades ago. Take a look at enrollment figures at most universities, which have doubled or tripled over the past 3 decades.

Seems as though more Canadians than ever are getting admitted to university:

statistics canada

...despite an uptick in foreign students

statistics canada

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Foreign students greatly enhance the learning environment of their domestic peers. This is based on my 20 years of teaching at the university level. Not saying that there aren't obstacles (ESL, cultural barriers) but the pros vastly outweigh the cons. Where do you think the domestic students want to go to? Places where there are opportunities to interact with people of different cultures.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Incoming high school averages are around 90%. Grade inflation is rampant in HS. Students coming out of HS with B- averages are not really that common anymore (and would struggle very badly in most university programs). SSI, where do you get your information? It is not corroborated by what is happening on the ground here.

There are a lot more university spots than there were decades ago. Take a look at enrollment figures at most universities, which have doubled or tripled over the past 3 decades.

Seems as though more Canadians than ever are getting admitted to university:

statistics canada

...despite an uptick in foreign students

statistics canada

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Foreign students greatly enhance the learning environment of their domestic peers. This is based on my 20 years of teaching at the university level. Not saying that there aren't obstacles (ESL, cultural barriers) but the pros vastly outweigh the cons. Where do you think the domestic students want to go to? Places where there are opportunities to interact with people of different cultures.

The “uptick” in foreign students appears to be an increase (In percentage representation) of something like 35-50% over just a few years. Does Chart 3 include all post secondary, including college (as opposed to degree-granting) programs? Obviously another factor in that growth could be a reduction in the raw number of high school graduates during that period, which might boost the overall percentage “rate” at which students can find places in post secondary programs without implying an increase in their actual numbers.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Andy6

The “uptick” in foreign students appears to be an increase (In percentage representation) of something like 35-50% over just a few years. Does Chart 3 include all post secondary, including college (as opposed to degree-granting) programs? Obviously another factor in that growth could be a reduction in the raw number of high school graduates during that period, which might boost the overall percentage “rate” at which students can find places in post secondary programs without implying an increase in their actual numbers.

In BC part of what we've seen is that the province has called more and more institutions universities. For example Fraser Valley College got upgraded to the University of the Fraser Valley.

I wonder if we have really scaled up the upper end of the education system here, e.g. UBC and in particular graduate programs. They have a hard time hiring and retaining faculty there due to housing prices. It would be a pipe dream for a professor to buy one of those multimillion dollar houses built on what what university endowment land.

At the graduate level there isn't a lot of bandwidth to teach large numbers of students and there can be a lot of contention for supervisors. Years ago it seemed most of the grad students were already foreign. Most seemed to depart Vancouver upon graduation.

I think foreign students are a good thing but that we need to make sure that people born in Canada do well too.

The definition for a non-foreign student is also pretty expansive. Back during the investor class immigration period lots of people were getting PR and their kids could go to school as domestic students. The proportion of ESL students seemed quite high at UBC even years ago and that had an impact too. There were plenty of upper year and grad students who could not write very well.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Incoming high school averages are around 90%. Grade inflation is rampant in HS. Students coming out of HS with B- averages are not really that common anymore (and would struggle very badly in most university programs). SSI, where do you get your information? It is not corroborated by what is happening on the ground here.

There are a lot more university spots than there were decades ago. Take a look at enrollment figures at most universities, which have doubled or tripled over the past 3 decades.

Seems as though more Canadians than ever are getting admitted to university:

statistics canada

...despite an uptick in foreign students

statistics canada

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Foreign students greatly enhance the learning environment of their domestic peers. This is based on my 20 years of teaching at the university level. Not saying that there aren't obstacles (ESL, cultural barriers) but the pros vastly outweigh the cons. Where do you think the domestic students want to go to? Places where there are opportunities to interact with people of different cultures.

Yeah, Canada has the highest degree of post secondary education attainment in the world. Literally no where else in the world is admitting as many of its citizens to post secondary institutions. It boggles my mind that we keep having to discuss this nonsense.

And you're right about high school grades being inflated. Pretty much everyone in my cohort at UoT seemed to have a 90% high school average. Even then, the majority struggled with university course work. This was ages ago. The situation is undoubtedly worse now. SSIGUY's infamous "B- nephew" is probably dumber than a sack of bricks, but we'll never know if he would made it university because he didn't even apply.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by theman23

Yeah, Canada has literally the highest degree of post secondary education attainment in the world. It boggles my mind that we keep having to discuss this nonsense.

Yes although this brings us back to the question of quality of education. Are more Canadians actually learning more? I don't know.

The enrollment data doesn't seem to say much and you hear both arguments, that education has been democratized now and it's made Canadians broadly better off, or that the whole system has been dumbed down and we are just wasting money on pointless credentials.

Either way education for foreign students is a valuable "export" that Canada is better off encouraging if it's managed even semi-reasonably. There's no inherent reason why it needs to come at the expense of educating others.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by someone123

In BC part of what we've seen is that the province has called more and more institutions universities. For example Fraser Valley College got upgraded to the University of the Fraser Valley.

Yes, that is what I'm thinking as well ... domestic students are being streamed into glorified community colleges that have been renamed "universities", with the result that the overall percentage attending university is quite high. So that "diamond in the rough" student who might have just made it into a "real" university a generation ago, is now at the Orillia campus of Lakehead University (which I just discovered existed a few days ago), with a diploma waiting at the end, for sure, but less opportunity to grow and be discovered in a more genuine academic environment.

[CivicBlues]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Yes, that is what I'm thinking as well ... domestic students are being streamed into glorified community colleges that have been renamed "universities", with the result that the overall percentage attending university is quite high. So that "diamond in the rough" student who might have just made it into a "real" university a generation ago, is now at the Orillia campus of Lakehead University (which I just discovered existed a few days ago), with a diploma waiting at the end, for sure, but less opportunity to grow and be discovered in a more genuine academic environment.

Don't know what it's like in Ontario but here in BC, such diploma mills are exclusively the domain of foreign students. If there's any issue here it's the fly-by-night "Colleges" and "Universities" that prey upon unsuspecting foreigners (or who knows, they might know very well what they're getting themselves into and just want to get into Canada), rather than any bizarre conspiracy to keep the Canadian-born out of our prestigious post secondary institutions.

Bu..bu..but guys! don't you know that "foreign students" are FOREIGN!?!? And they're bringing FOREIGN students into OUR schools who are probably speaking *gasp* FOREIGN languages!

-- ssiguy, probably.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yes although this brings us back to the question of quality of education. Are more Canadians actually learning more? I don't know.

The enrollment data doesn't seem to say much and you hear both arguments, that education has been democratized now and it's made Canadians broadly better off, or that the whole system has been dumbed down and we are just wasting money on pointless credentials.

Either way education for foreign students is a valuable "export" that Canada is better off encouraging if it's managed even semi-reasonably. There's no inherent reason why it needs to come at the expense of educating others.

Probably, but I'm not sure if most people find value in that learning. Post secondary education has become an expectation.

Originally Posted by Andy6

Yes, that is what I'm thinking as well ... domestic students are being streamed into glorified community colleges that have been renamed "universities", with the result that the overall percentage attending university is quite high. So that "diamond in the rough" student who might have just made it into a "real" university a generation ago, is now at the Orillia campus of Lakehead University (which I just discovered existed a few days ago), with a diploma waiting at the end, for sure, but less opportunity to grow and be discovered in a more genuine academic environment..

You don't need to be a "diamond" to get into any Canadian undergraduate university. Admission standards in Canada are not high. Most people simply go where they want to go.

If someone chooses the Orillia campus of Lakehead, its probably because they'd rather just live in Orillia.

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Don't know what it's like in Ontario but here in BC, such diploma mills are exclusively the domain of foreign students. If there's any issue here it's the fly-by-night "Colleges" and "Universities" that prey upon unsuspecting foreigners (or who knows, they might know very well what they're getting themselves into and just want to get into Canada), rather than any bizarre conspiracy to keep the Canadian-born out of our prestigious post secondary institutions.

Bu..bu..but guys! don't you know that "foreign students" are FOREIGN!?!? And they're bringing FOREIGN students into OUR schools who are probably speaking *gasp* FOREIGN languages!

-- ssiguy, probably.

SSIGUY makes this exact same claim every few weeks. Each time he posts no supporting evidence, receives a mountain of evidence to the contrary which he never responds to, accuses us of calling him a racist, then disappears for a few weeks until he restarts the cycle.

At least last time he gave us the hilarious story of his B- nephew who couldn't get into a Canadian university because of all of the foreigners. Oh and also, he never applied.

[Brizzy82]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

U of T has 22% International students which puts it about the same as U of Saskatchewan even though U of T has twice as many students. 66% of University of Saskatchewan students come directly from the province it's self. I was surprised to see Ryerson has only 5% International students!

https://healthsciences.usask.ca/news...-in-201819.php

U of Regina with 2/3rds as many students as U of S but has 24% International students. It hasn't always been this way, the number of International students at U of R has quadrupled in the last ten years.

https://www.uregina.ca/orp/statistic...headcount.html


http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-2020/Canada.html

Manitoba and Nova Scotia have the highest percentage of international students per capita according to these stats

https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/6420...n-0213763.html

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Don't know what it's like in Ontario but here in BC, such diploma mills are exclusively the domain of foreign students. If there's any issue here it's the fly-by-night "Colleges" and "Universities" that prey upon unsuspecting foreigners (or who knows, they might know very well what they're getting themselves into and just want to get into Canada), rather than any bizarre conspiracy to keep the Canadian-born out of our prestigious post secondary institutions.

It wouldn't be a "bizarre conspiracy" so much as an understandable decision based on the incentive that being able to charge some people much higher tuition than others undoubtedly tends to create. The question is whether that state of affairs benefits Canadian students or not.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Incoming high school averages are around 90%. Grade inflation is rampant in HS. Students coming out of HS with B- averages are not really that common anymore (and would struggle very badly in most university programs).

Totally agree. Our children finished HS in 2014 and 2018 and the number of their classmates who got 90 + averages was crazy. The youngest child got I think 93% average, did little to no homework and got into the program of his choice. Apparently his HS only had a 10.5% change between HS and 1st year university at Waterloo. Some high schools were greater than 20%.

Awarding so many 90 + averages doesn't help in the long run when reality sinks in during university and they can't cope or get hit with marks in the 60's/70's.

Have you ever wondered why in Ontario there isn't a monetary award anymore for graduating from HS with a 80% or 90% average.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Have you ever wondered why in Ontario there isn't a monetary award anymore for graduating from HS with a 80% or 90% average.

You mean they no longer get the "Ontario Scholar" money? I remember that!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Totally agree. Our children finished HS in 2014 and 2018 and the number of their classmates who got 90 + averages was crazy. The youngest child got I think 93% average, did little to no homework and got into the program of his choice. Apparently his HS only had a 10.5% change between HS and 1st year university at Waterloo. Some high schools were greater than 20%.

Awarding so many 90 + averages doesn't help in the long run when reality sinks in during university and they can't cope or get hit with marks in the 60's/70's.

.

My kids currently span the high school and CEGEP (junior college) years, and in high school 90+ averages were definitely not common at all. Though my kids go/went to a private high school so perhaps that makes a difference.