PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by PHL10

I don't know but I believe I read that they will be required to recreate the facades which might hinder things (not that I would necessarily disagree with that).


I have the sinking feeling that we will be dealing with that gaping hole for a while.

That’s what I’m afraid of

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

Does anybody have any info on what’s going on with lot that burned down on walnut between 17th and 18th?

Originally Posted by PHL10

I don't know but I believe I read that they will be required to recreate the facades which might hinder things (not that I would necessarily disagree with that).


I have the sinking feeling that we will be dealing with that gaping hole for a while.

I walked by it this weekend, so sad and huge!

I suspect a completed replacement won't come until close to 2030. Look at the arson lot in Old City on Chestnut, 3 years later and still sitting. That too supposedly will recreate the façade, but the first proposal iteration did not. (denied).

I'm sure the city could put pressure on both situations, but likely won't.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I walked by it this weekend, so sad and huge!

I suspect a completed replacement won't come until close to 2030. Look at the arson lot in Old City on Chestnut, 3 years later and still sitting. That too supposedly will recreate the façade, but the first proposal iteration did not. (denied).

I'm sure the city could put pressure on both situations, but likely won't.

Well the decision to develop that lot, as with any lot, will come down to economics. If there is an opportunity to make a ton of cake, you better believe someone will grab that asap, even with the added cost of facade reconstruction. Not sure how you quantify that in terms of timing.

The real issue is with the current owners - as with all the current owners on Walnut. It's greed and ridiculous expectations of what is fair rent (or value for a lot). The rents have gotten unsustainable, even with Covid reduced activity. And owners seen perfectly fine with charging absurd rents and sitting vacant rather then charging fair market value.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Well the decision to develop that lot, as with any lot, will come down to economics. If there is an opportunity to make a ton of cake, you better believe someone will grab that asap, even with the added cost of facade reconstruction. Not sure how you quantify that in terms of timing.

The real issue is with the current owners - as with all the current owners on Walnut. It's greed and ridiculous expectations of what is fair rent (or value for a lot). The rents have gotten unsustainable, even with Covid reduced activity. And owners seen perfectly fine with charging absurd rents and sitting vacant rather then charging fair market value.

FWIW I've seen landlords offering a lot of incentives (a few months of free rent, money to rebuild/update interiors, etc.) throughout Center City over the last year or so. While I don't disagree that greediness has, historically, had the unfortunate effect of leaving some prime real estate empty, I really believe that what is having the biggest effect here is just the fact that retail in general is hurting (and that's not exclusive to Philly by any means).

Just IMO but for Walnut Street in particular, I think it would be helpful to re-establish it with more 'middle class' retail which bring more foot traffic of people who will actually be shopping and not just walking through. For example, Philadelphia Runner just relocated to Walnut Street, and I think that's a great move both for them and for the street in general.

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Well the decision to develop that lot, as with any lot, will come down to economics. If there is an opportunity to make a ton of cake, you better believe someone will grab that asap, even with the added cost of facade reconstruction. Not sure how you quantify that in terms of timing.

The real issue is with the current owners - as with all the current owners on Walnut. It's greed and ridiculous expectations of what is fair rent (or value for a lot). The rents have gotten unsustainable, even with Covid reduced activity. And owners seen perfectly fine with charging absurd rents and sitting vacant rather then charging fair market value.

One of the landlords charging more rent in the area is also a “pro business” city councilman. There’s so much corruption in city govt that holds us back.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

One of the landlords charging more rent in the area is also a “pro business” city councilman. There’s so much corruption in city govt that holds us back.

Mr. A D?

[summersm343]

New $42M warehouse at PhilaPort topped off

PhilaPort has topped off a $42 million, 201,621-square-foot distribution center that is under construction at the Packer Avenue Marine Terminal.

The milestone means the last piece of steel has been installed in the construction of the building under development at 455 Pattison Ave. in South Philadelphia. Haines & Kibblehouse, a Skippack construction company that has an office at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, is the general contractor.

The warehouse will be occupied by Holt Logistics Corp. as part of the company's lease at the Packer Avenue Marine Terminal. The facility will have 32 loading docks and provide storage for dry cargo arriving at that terminal. PhilaPort also intends to leverage the facility to attract other business to the port. It is expected to be completed May 2022 and potentially create between 200 to 300 jobs.

A second phase totaling 217,000 square feet could eventually be built that would incorporate refrigerated warehousing.

Article behind paywall here:
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...Pos=4#cxrecs_s

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Well the decision to develop that lot, as with any lot, will come down to economics. If there is an opportunity to make a ton of cake, you better believe someone will grab that asap, even with the added cost of facade reconstruction. Not sure how you quantify that in terms of timing.

The real issue is with the current owners - as with all the current owners on Walnut. It's greed and ridiculous expectations of what is fair rent (or value for a lot). The rents have gotten unsustainable, even with Covid reduced activity. And owners seen perfectly fine with charging absurd rents and sitting vacant rather then charging fair market value.

Old City is a different story, and I think we can get something built that can replicate or be similar to what was there.

1700 block of Walnut though? Let's just cut our loses there, allow a highrise be built with 2-3 retail spaces on the ground floor and call it a day. Otherwise, this site is going to sit vacant for a decade.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Old City is a different story, and I think we can get something built that can replicate or be similar to what was there.

1700 block of Walnut though? Let's just cut our loses there, allow a highrise be built with 2-3 retail spaces on the ground floor and call it a day. Otherwise, this site is going to sit vacant for a decade.

Absolutely disagree. PHC required permits to be submitted one year after demo (which would be this fall). All three parcels are individually owned and as far as I can tell none have been put up for sale.

The facades could be easily rebuilt with perhaps an overbuild of some kind like what was done over at the Laurel. Furthermore, any plans would have to be approved by the PHC.

There's far too much arson and weak excuses against historic preservation in this city. The rebuild plans for 239 Chestnut, which were rejected by the PHC, were submitted in the fall of 2019. Any progress beyond that probably was at least in part thwarted by Covid.

[cardeza]

All I can say is the negative trends that were developing before COVID in center city are worse now. Im not suggesting that dowtowns arent suffering in other places, but things arent looking great in center city right now. In addition to work scheduling changes in the post covid world I think center city is just lacking some appeal for many companies and workers. I walked around today and the vacancies, homelessness and general look of the city are not where they should be. Even the smells were bad, I felt like I was walking past a trash truck at least 4 times but there wasn't any to be found- it was just trash smells from the alleys carried on the breeze. Things are like this in spite of the presence of the CCD- I guess it would be a lot worse otherwise but thats not really much to get excited about.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

One of the landlords charging more rent in the area is also a “pro business” city councilman. There’s so much corruption in city govt that holds us back.

Please explain how this is corruption?

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Please explain how this is corruption?

Exactly. it's the anti-business attitudes that hold us back.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Exactly. it's the anti-business attitudes that hold us back.

The comment doesn't even make any sense.

A landlord can charge whatever they want for their properties. If they don't rent, than that's the risk they take.

They're also not even obligated to accept offers that are for asking rent. I know plenty of commercial landlords who hold out for the right tenant. I have a buddy that had a space vacant for years in a marginal retail area. He was getting offers from smoke shops and dollar slice pizza places. He simply said no. He thought they'd bring down the value of his building and lower the potential for the entire commercial corridor.

He eventually got a really nice bookstore and coffee shop to sign on and it's helped turn around his entire block.

[Redddog]

I think Old City is fairly desperate for tenants at the moment. One of my favorite hangouts (The Gaslight) closed down and there was talk that the landlord was done with bars/restaurants and he was going to cut the place up and turn it into offices.

After a few months of vacancy, they have a breakfast/lunch soulfood restaurant opening. No booze.

I can't imagine that place has even the slightest chance to make it though the owner seems like a good, hardworking guy. I hope it does but the point is that not everyone can wait it out for the right tenants - even if they are adamant.

Honestly, I'm shocked that Stephen Starr didn't snatch that place up. It's a beautiful room in a great location for Old City right next to his HQ. His lack of activity in general is VERY strange to me. I think that the reset that happened with so many closures due to covid will mark a historical opportunity to take advantage. With his finacial position, he was exactly the type organization to take full advantage of that. He did NOTHING. The OG Conti is still completely empty with absolutely no signs of life.

Makes me wonder if his organization isn't in quite the position we assume.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by cardeza

All I can say is the negative trends that were developing before COVID in center city are worse now. Im not suggesting that dowtowns arent suffering in other places, but things arent looking great in center city right now. In addition to work scheduling changes in the post covid world I think center city is just lacking some appeal for many companies and workers. I walked around today and the vacancies, homelessness and general look of the city are not where they should be. Even the smells were bad, I felt like I was walking past a trash truck at least 4 times but there wasn't any to be found- it was just trash smells from the alleys carried on the breeze. Things are like this in spite of the presence of the CCD- I guess it would be a lot worse otherwise but thats not really much to get excited about.

I posted pictures in the W thread from my recent stay, but since you brought up the state of Center City, I pasted my "Philadelphia weekend summary" from City Data below. There were a lot of positives and I was happy to see more energy, and the food is always amazing, but there were a few negatives, vacancies being one of them (but that is worse in NYC), and lack of police presence or enforcement (which I didn't mention, but a general problem in CC. The recent window smash at Mac Mart is an example). I still see good things in in the future though! See my summary below.

Hey All,

So, I visited Philadelphia over the weekend. I’ve been in and out of the city for work once a month, but this was the first time I spent 3 days/nights wandering and enjoying the city since 2019!
My boyfriend and I stayed at the new W Hotel. The hotel is stunning, we had a suite on the 40th floor (not all rooms are open yet). The rooms are beautiful, very dark and chic. The Lobby Bar / Lounge was great, competes with any hotel in New York. The 7th Floor contains a Spa, Gym, and outdoor Pool, all beautiful.

The pool / bar area will be a great summer spot in the coming years.
We walked all over Center City and pockets of Northern Liberties and Fishtown. Center City overall was very lively, people out and about, and a lot of tourists by the historic sites. My boyfriend loves all the old architecture, he likes to wander the little alleyways in Society Hill and Gayborhood. Washington Square Park is his favorite big city park in the country (Rittenhouse is great, but the vibe of Washington is very chill, which he likes).

We were in the Reading Terminal on Friday, it was busy, and most vendors were open, great to see. While in line for a cheesesteak we chatted with 2 separate couples near us. Both leisure visitors from Seattle and Arizona. Both couples had great things to say about the city and the food, which was also great to hear.

Other good points: I noticed a lot of construction everywhere, parts of Sansom and 13th Streets closed for outdoor dining was awesome (make that permanent), Walnut did not look as dreary as I imagined, restaurants and bars everywhere were busy, and we unexpectedly saw the Naked Bike Ride in Rittenhouse Square! My boyfriend likes Philadelphia a lot, he enjoys the food, energy, tight streets, architecture, and he likes the more brash attitude (similar to New York) that you don’t see in Chicago.

Places we ate or drank at… Various spots in the Reading Terminal, Alpen Rose (amazing), Pizzeria Vetri, Trattoria Carina, AKA Rittenhouse, La Columbe (Fishtown), Suraya, Royal Boucherie, JG Sky Bar, and various coffee shops. We love to eat and drink.

Now some slight negatives that I noticed all 3 nights / days…

1. Our room was on 40th floor facing North & East (we could see Broad Street and City Hall), the dirt bike and ATV riders were LOUD all 3 nights. They sporadically start around 11pm, and packs of them every few minutes until 3am. I even got up to look one night and saw them zooming by the Ritz Carlton. Definitely a problem and not exaggerated by residents. I don’t know what the city should do, but this is not “kids looking for a place to ride” (according to the progressive leftists).

2. Chestnut Street from 12th Street to 17th was not enjoyable, notably the 1200 Block and 1500 Block. Saturday night we were walking East toward hotel around midnight, there were at least a dozen ghetto teens by Foot Locker screaming at the top of their lungs, pushing each other, throwing garbage, we jaywalked midblock to avoid. And it was not a one-off circumstance. There should cops stationed along Chestnut. Before 12th and after 17th were fine though, like different worlds on certain blocks of Chestnut. The Element and W definitely help the 1400 block.

In summary, we had a great weekend. It is good to see the city bouncing back, and looks like it will only get better!

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I posted pictures in the W thread from my recent stay, but since you brought up the state of Center City, I pasted my "Philadelphia weekend summary" from City Data below. There were a lot of positives and I was happy to see more energy, and the food is always amazing, but there were a few negatives, vacancies being one of them (but that is worse in NYC), and lack of police presence or enforcement (which I didn't mention, but a general problem in CC. The recent window smash at Mac Mart is an example). I still see good things in in the future though! See my summary below.
[/I]

Thanks for the post! Glad you had a (mostly) good time!

[Jayfar]

CDRs are up, split into morning and afternoon agendas for September 14.

https://www.phila.gov/departments/ph...blic-meetings/

Includes the first residential/mixed-use development for the Navy Yard:
1. 1200 Normandy Place
Zoned: CMX-3
Gross Square Footage: 704,356 total square feet
25,755 square feet of commercial space
611 residential units
Uses: Residential mixed-use
Parking: 166 vehicular parking spaces
Developer: Mosaic Development Partners (TBC)
Architect: DIGSAU
Attorney: Robert Careless, Cozen O’Connor
PCPC Presenter: Matt Wysong

https://www.phila.gov/media/20210831...andy-Pl_pm.pdf

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by cardeza

All I can say is the negative trends that were developing before COVID in center city are worse now. Im not suggesting that dowtowns arent suffering in other places, but things arent looking great in center city right now. In addition to work scheduling changes in the post covid world I think center city is just lacking some appeal for many companies and workers. I walked around today and the vacancies, homelessness and general look of the city are not where they should be. Even the smells were bad, I felt like I was walking past a trash truck at least 4 times but there wasn't any to be found- it was just trash smells from the alleys carried on the breeze. Things are like this in spite of the presence of the CCD- I guess it would be a lot worse otherwise but thats not really much to get excited about.

I hear ya, but we have to look at it somewhat positively here. Center City fared pretty well. COVID and BLM protests all at once really hit a lot of cities hard. Manhattan got hit hard in some areas, so did Downtown Chicago. I haven’t been since COVID, but I heard Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco are having tough times too.

It could be worse for sure. This is one time where we should be grateful that Center City is so heavily residential. The vacancies will be filled. We just need a mayor that has some balls and would do something about the homelessness, the dirt bike riders, etc.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I posted pictures in the W thread from my recent stay, but since you brought up the state of Center City, I pasted my "Philadelphia weekend summary" from City Data below. There were a lot of positives and I was happy to see more energy, and the food is always amazing, but there were a few negatives, vacancies being one of them (but that is worse in NYC), and lack of police presence or enforcement (which I didn't mention, but a general problem in CC. The recent window smash at Mac Mart is an example). I still see good things in in the future though! See my summary below.

Hey All,

So, I visited Philadelphia over the weekend. I’ve been in and out of the city for work once a month, but this was the first time I spent 3 days/nights wandering and enjoying the city since 2019!
My boyfriend and I stayed at the new W Hotel. The hotel is stunning, we had a suite on the 40th floor (not all rooms are open yet). The rooms are beautiful, very dark and chic. The Lobby Bar / Lounge was great, competes with any hotel in New York. The 7th Floor contains a Spa, Gym, and outdoor Pool, all beautiful.

The pool / bar area will be a great summer spot in the coming years.
We walked all over Center City and pockets of Northern Liberties and Fishtown. Center City overall was very lively, people out and about, and a lot of tourists by the historic sites. My boyfriend loves all the old architecture, he likes to wander the little alleyways in Society Hill and Gayborhood. Washington Square Park is his favorite big city park in the country (Rittenhouse is great, but the vibe of Washington is very chill, which he likes).

We were in the Reading Terminal on Friday, it was busy, and most vendors were open, great to see. While in line for a cheesesteak we chatted with 2 separate couples near us. Both leisure visitors from Seattle and Arizona. Both couples had great things to say about the city and the food, which was also great to hear.

Other good points: I noticed a lot of construction everywhere, parts of Sansom and 13th Streets closed for outdoor dining was awesome (make that permanent), Walnut did not look as dreary as I imagined, restaurants and bars everywhere were busy, and we unexpectedly saw the Naked Bike Ride in Rittenhouse Square! My boyfriend likes Philadelphia a lot, he enjoys the food, energy, tight streets, architecture, and he likes the more brash attitude (similar to New York) that you don’t see in Chicago.

Places we ate or drank at… Various spots in the Reading Terminal, Alpen Rose (amazing), Pizzeria Vetri, Trattoria Carina, AKA Rittenhouse, La Columbe (Fishtown), Suraya, Royal Boucherie, JG Sky Bar, and various coffee shops. We love to eat and drink.

Now some slight negatives that I noticed all 3 nights / days…

1. Our room was on 40th floor facing North & East (we could see Broad Street and City Hall), the dirt bike and ATV riders were LOUD all 3 nights. They sporadically start around 11pm, and packs of them every few minutes until 3am. I even got up to look one night and saw them zooming by the Ritz Carlton. Definitely a problem and not exaggerated by residents. I don’t know what the city should do, but this is not “kids looking for a place to ride” (according to the progressive leftists).

2. Chestnut Street from 12th Street to 17th was not enjoyable, notably the 1200 Block and 1500 Block. Saturday night we were walking East toward hotel around midnight, there were at least a dozen ghetto teens by Foot Locker screaming at the top of their lungs, pushing each other, throwing garbage, we jaywalked midblock to avoid. And it was not a one-off circumstance. There should cops stationed along Chestnut. Before 12th and after 17th were fine though, like different worlds on certain blocks of Chestnut. The Element and W definitely help the 1400 block.

In summary, we had a great weekend. It is good to see the city bouncing back, and looks like it will only get better!

Great summary! Those are exactly my sentiments as well. There are indeed good things happening in the city and it’s encouraging to see more activity. However, while I’ve generally been optimistic, I’ve had an uneasy feeling for the last month or so. I’ve noticed more homeless around Center City and subsequently more trash everywhere. I overheard two young women while walking along Market East the other night who commented the area looks like the zombie apocalypse - to be fair there were quite few meth heads gathered on one particular corner.

Thank you for addressing the dirt bike/ATV situation. Those who don’t think it’s a big deal should try living on Broad, Market or South for a week and see how much they can tolerate it. I imagine it’s probably what hell sounds like. While living at Broad and Arch for a year in Alterra’s One City Apartments, which has “historically protected” 100 year old single paned windows - ie “no windows”, (Alterra likes to skimp on things it seems), I’m pretty sure I lost most of the cells in the part of my brain associated with patience. Also, I was living there during the spring and early summer when groups of 50+ would rampage down Broad at all hours of the night. However, I’ve seen less of the really large groups lately which is encouraging.

Noise pollution is a significant issue in the city that isn’t being addressed enough. I’ve also noticed incredibly loud music emanating from cars which echos off buildings for several blocks - seems like they’re all over lately. Perhaps, I’m now just more sensitive to it, but I lived in Manhattan for three years and it seemed like it was never nearly as noticeable as it is in Philly.

I moved out of One City a few months ago and we have since purchased a townhouse in Spring Garden that we are in the process of renovating, which has been fun. However, if things continue to slide in the wrong direction in terms of quality of life issues, we may end up moving out of the city in a few years. We recently had a conversation with our neighbors who said the same thing.

I hope this doesn’t come across as a rant; thats not my intention. Its just my honest perspective of things as they stand. I love Philly and want to see it succeed. While not everyone is openly discussing it, I do think people are watching to see which way the winds are blowing. If you have similar concerns, please get involved - write to your council member, join a neighborhood association etc. These issues will only get worse if we allow them to.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I hear ya, but we have to look at it somewhat positively here. Center City fared pretty well. COVID and BLM protests all at once really hit a lot of cities hard. Manhattan got hit hard in some areas, so did Downtown Chicago. I haven’t been since COVID, but I heard Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland and San Francisco are having tough times too.

It could be worse for sure. This is one time where we should be grateful that Center City is so heavily residential. The vacancies will be filled. We just need a mayor that has some balls and would do something about the homelessness, the dirt bike riders, etc.

True. Things are unfortunately so unpredictable as of late - there are positive and negative indicators, but sometimes it feels like trying to read tea leaves. Since we are at this point, I think it’s important more now than ever to get involved and get the city to focus on these quality of life issues - there’s power in numbers.