I-5 Bridge Replacement - Formerly Columbia River Crossing | Proposed

[rsbear]

Monies Washington residents who work in Oregon pay in income taxes are probably made up for the money they save in sales taxes by shopping in Oregon.

[360Rich]

Originally Posted by rsbear

Monies Washington residents who work in Oregon pay in income taxes are probably made up for the money they save in sales taxes by shopping in Oregon.

Not for the "average" person.

Paying 9% tax on your gross, is going to be a lot more than saving 9% sales tax on your purchases.

[rsbear]

You're right, savings on sales tax is not exactly equal to the amount paid in income taxes. I think state income tax is actually only on the net amount earned after Federal income taxes, so it really isn't 9% of your gross. Also, isn't Oregon's state income tax progressive, with 9% being the highest rate? My point is, Vancouver residents who work in Portland do cost the city of Portland and the state of Oregon money - road wear and tear and other public services. They also live in an area with a high sales tax that they can avoid by shopping in Oregon. Somehow, somewhere they have to pay their fair share of taxes. They should not have it both ways with no income tax and no sales tax.

[PacificNW]

⇑ No jobs for you, or the other thousands of Washington residents, in Vancouver or Clark County? Then you all wouldn't have to be concerned about our tax structure.

[downtownpdx]

I'm interested in how a 12-lane bridge (right?) will funnel traffic south to downtown Portland, when I-5 narrows to two lanes in each direction at the I-405 split. If it's really 12 lanes over the river, what do planners think of the consequences several miles away? I've heard one Vancouver official complain that Portland isn't looking seriously enough at increasing I-5's capacity around the Rose Quarter, for example. I hope we aren't really expected to tear into neighborhoods again with freeway expansion, just because the bridge was designed this way. I thought we were trying to reduce auto-dependency these days?

[PacificNW]

⇑ Like I have stated before: Direct the through truck traffic to I-205.

[zilfondel]

PDOT is capping all the freeways in the city @6 lanes.

[Civ E JB]

The bridge will most likely be ten lanes, however only 3 in each direction are for through traffic. So you really do have a six lane freeway. The other two lanes northbound and southbound are intended to make merging onto and off of I-5 between the Hayden Island/Marine Drive exits and downtown Vancouver/SR-14 exits (and vice versa) a simpler and safer task.

The whole project is designed as a six lane freeway so as to match up with existing infrastructure in the north and south (well, at least it will after Delta Park I-5 is widened).

[PacificNW]

I just read this article on another site (gay). I realize there are differences in design/labor/construction/material costs for projects around the world but I don't understand the huge cost difference with this project in Dubai and Columbia Crossing.



"Envisioned by New York-based architecture firm Fxfowle, the $817-million bridge will be one mile long and 670 feet tall. Construction starts next month and will last for four years."


http://www.towleroad.com/

[pdxman]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

I just read this article on another site (gay). I realize there are differences in design/labor/construction/material costs for projects around the world but I don't understand the huge cost difference with this project in Dubai and Columbia Crossing.

My thoughts exactly. Call me clueless, but how does something that looks a hundred times more pleasing visually cost a fraction of what our overpass will cost??

[MarkDaMan]

if anyone had info, please do tell. Otherwise PacNW, forward this onto someone from the task force!

[PuyoPiyo]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

I just read this article on another site (gay). I realize there are differences in design/labor/construction/material costs for projects around the world but I don't understand the huge cost difference with this project in Dubai and Columbia Crossing.



"Envisioned by New York-based architecture firm Fxfowle, the $817-million bridge will be one mile long and 670 feet tall. Construction starts next month and will last for four years."


http://www.towleroad.com/

For your question, maybe it's because the country of UAE doesn't pay the workers as much as American workers in USA earn from working on the construction.. It's the ecomonic difference in UAE and USA.

[Pavlov's Dog]

correct. Construction workers in Dubai are little more than indentured servants from India and Pakistan. The system is such that agents recruit them in their home countries. Since they're poor the agents front the money for plane tickets to Dubai. They also live in company housing in Dubai which is deducted from their pay. The pitiful wages they are then paid by the company is seldom enough to cover the cost of the plane ticket (with interest) so they're always in the red and basically stuck in servitude in Dubai.

Their situation is very similar to that of our Chinese laborors in the 1800's when we built out our railroads.

[joeplayer1989]

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

correct. Construction workers in Dubai are little more than indentured servants from India and Pakistan. The system is such that agents recruit them in their home countries. Since they're poor the agents front the money for plane tickets to Dubai. They also live in company housing in Dubai which is deducted from their pay. The pitiful wages they are then paid by the company is seldom enough to cover the cost of the plane ticket (with interest) so they're always in the red and basically stuck in servitude in Dubai.

Their situation is very similar to that of our Chinese laborors in the 1800's when we built out our railroads.

better then slavery

[PacificNW]

If you guys look at my post you will see that I included "labor" costs as a possible reason for the difference in projected costs of these two projects. I am not as stupid as I may appear. "Our bridge" is going to cost 5 times that of the Dubai bridge because of the higher wages here in the Pacific Northwest? 5 times? It's no wonder all these architectural wonders are being constructed in China/Far and Middle East. We, in the the U.S., end up with boring/mundane architecture.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by PacificNW

It's no wonder all these architectural wonders are being constructed in China/Far and Middle East. We, in the the U.S., end up with boring/mundane architecture.

i don't know, all these wild buildings they're putting up over there seem to me like monuments to abuse and exploitation. we may have mundane architecture, but our construction workers get to lead normal lives.

[Dougall5505]

Originally Posted by joeplayer1989

better then slavery

what!?

[IHEARTPDX]

Originally Posted by Dougall5505

what!?

My sentiments exactly Dougall...

[PacificNW]

I agree that our construction workers should be paid the going rate....I just question the huge difference in overall costs. I think we, in the U.S., are only getting what we are willing to pay...so don't expect cutting edge design for the new Columbia River bridge (functional considerations over form rule)...unless you can get a large portion of the public demanding good design. (Or any public project, IMO). I also think Europeans have always been more interested/involved in good design/materials in any number of fields of design, ie. fashion, architecture, IMO.

[zilfondel]

Don't forget that the sites in Dubai and Portland are totally different - we have to rebuild what, 3+ miles of freeway, interchanges, tear down 2 existing bridges, and build a new one in the same corridor, all while rerouting traffic (not interrupting it), and prevent construction waste from falling into the river and killing salmon. The Dubai project gets built on a blank-slate site, to cross an artificial lake!

The environmental rule differences in the two countries alone would cause a huge difference in costs.

Don't forget that labor is also the largest expenditure of money. Materials count for a smaller fraction of total costs... so if the labor costs 10-20 times more in the US than Dubai... expect labor-intensive infrastructure to be expensive.

The wages of construction workers, which range from $106 to $250 per month, contrast starkly with the national average wage of $2,106 per month. Many recent workers’ protests have centered on demands for better wages. Although the UAE Labor Law of 1980 requires the government to implement a minimum wage, it has failed to do so for the past 26 years.

Human Rights Watch

In 2005, the average annual wage in the construction industry was $39,897 – over $3,000 more per year than the average annual wage for all industries in Oregon.

http://www.qualityinfo.org/olmisj/Ar...temid=00005457


$39,897 / 12 months = $3,324.75
Note that they will use Union on a state project, so the wages will be higher. $3-4 grand a month is significantly higher than $100 - $200 a month.


Personally, I feel good about the fact that our workers get paid a comparatively decent wage to what everyone else gets paid. If we want good design, however, we need to pay for it... and then there's the fact that in 1 week we piss the same amount of money on the Iraq war.