Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think there was ever much of a sense of English being a threat for the local language in any of the Nordics, or in other high English proficiency places like the Netherlands.

That's what I mean, though - I mean, I'm sure there is someone local who takes it as an affront, but generally people there are unperturbed by the presence of English. I wonder if Quebec, or at least some parts of it, is becoming more aligned with that viewpoint.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

That's what I mean, though - I mean, I'm sure there is someone local who takes it as an affront, but generally people there are unperturbed by the presence of English. I wonder if Quebec, or at least some parts of it, is becoming more aligned with that viewpoint.

There are a couple of ways this can go. One is people moving in from elsewhere, bringing their language and money with them, and swamping the local culture. Another is that the people in a given place choose to be exposed more to some other culture because they want it. For example maybe they want to watch movies or play video games that are mostly in some other language (almost always English). It seems like the Germanic parts of Europe are pretty receptive to English-language media, perhaps because it's comparatively easy for them to learn English, and because aside from German the languages tend to be pretty small around that area so they have limited media of their own.

A lot of the supposed evidence of Canada being generic is really just global mass market media and consumerism which people in say Mexico City or Dubai or Tokyo are also exposed to. And I would guess that a lot of people in Quebec find it appealing too, even if there is local food or cinema or shops as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

That's what I mean, though - I mean, I'm sure there is someone local who takes it as an affront, but generally people there are unperturbed by the presence of English. I wonder if Quebec, or at least some parts of it, is becoming more aligned with that viewpoint.

A decent chunk of Quebec's population has always been aligned with that viewpoint, even in the early days of the language debate (late 60s and early 70s). You've always had quite a few francophones who saw things that way, even.

There are always shifts taking place though, relative to which groups tend to think in which way.

Certainly the data shows that young people (even francophones) are less passionate and more laissez-faire about language, but you also have new variables like appreciable numbers of allophones/immigrants who are very passionate about French. Something that was virtually absent in the 1970s.

For example, this open letter was published a few days ago and circulated on social media. It's from a Kabyle origin student who is complaining of a lack of respect for French... at McGill.

https://www.delitfrancais.com/2020/1...urgit-en-2020/

She does not represent a huge majority but she's not as much of an outlier as one might think.

I think it's wishful thinking to say "it's just old people who care about this and eventually it'll go away as they die off".

There is still some noise to come on this.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We now interrupt this regularly-scheduled SSP Canada classic, "You Guys Are Just Living in the Past, Get With the Program"...

The best analogy that I can think of is that Quebec is the Israel of North America.

Israel is a small country surrounded by a quarter billion Arabic speakers. This leads Israelis to be very aggressive and nationalistic in their world view, but at the same time fearful, especially of their Arabic speaking Palestinian minority, which just so happens to be breeding like rabbits and threatening the dominance of the Hebrew speaking majority within the country. In essence, they are concerned for their very existence.

Quebec is a small ethnic state surrounded by 350 million anglophone North Americans, and also has a minority within it's borders which parallels the surrounding majority. Quebec may not be militarily threatened by the surrounding English speakers in North America, but certainly feels culturally threatened, and is worried about the loyalties of the immigrants arriving into the province. To deal with this threat, Quebec has introduced measures to ensure the dominance of it's language and culture.

This unfortunately makes anglo-Quebeckers the Palestinians of North America.

[MolsonExport]

anything excessive is insignificant

I am sure there is some context attached to this quote, because at face value, it is an absurd utterance.

Trump was insignificant? (if only)
the Holocaust was insignificant?
capital punishment is insignificant?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I am sure there is some context attached to this quote, because at face value, it is an absurd utterance.

Trump was insignificant? (if only)
the Holocaust was insignificant?
capital punishment is insignificant?

Nice try.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The best analogy that I can think of is that Quebec is the Israel of North America.

Israel is a small country surrounded by a quarter billion Arabic speakers. This leads Israelis to be very aggressive and nationalistic in their world view, but at the same time fearful, especially of their Arabic speaking Palestinian minority, which just so happens to be breeding like rabbits and threatening the dominance of the Hebrew speaking majority within the country. In essence, they are concerned for their very existence.

Quebec is a small ethnic state surrounded by 350 million anglophone North Americans, and also has a minority within it's borders which parallels the surrounding majority. Quebec may not be militarily threatened by the surrounding English speakers in North America, but certainly feels culturally threatened, and is worried about the loyalties of the immigrants arriving into the province. To deal with this threat, Quebec has introduced measures to ensure the dominance of it's language and culture.

This unfortunately makes anglo-Quebeckers the Palestinians of North America.

That's actually pretty interesting. First time I have heard that.

[MolsonExport]

What has made you so focused on ethnic minorities and transgendered issues? Why have you taken up this cross to bear? Is it a direct result of the need to squelch any cognitive dissonance for the apologies and excuses offered for a sordid politician in the current events thread? What got you triggered?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The best analogy that I can think of is that Quebec is the Israel of North America.

Israel is a small country surrounded by a quarter billion Arabic speakers. This leads Israelis to be very aggressive and nationalistic in their world view, but at the same time fearful, especially of their Arabic speaking Palestinian minority, which just so happens to be breeding like rabbits and threatening the dominance of the Hebrew speaking majority within the country. In essence, they are concerned for their very existence.

Quebec is a small ethnic state surrounded by 350 million anglophone North Americans, and also has a minority within it's borders which parallels the surrounding majority. Quebec may not be militarily threatened by the surrounding English speakers in North America, but certainly feels culturally threatened, and is worried about the loyalties of the immigrants arriving into the province. To deal with this threat, Quebec has introduced measures to ensure the dominance of it's language and culture.

This unfortunately makes anglo-Quebeckers the Palestinians of North America.

Arab-Israelis, I should think.

[Marshsparrow]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When exactly has Quebec criticized other jurisdictions for "protecting themselves"?

And which jurisdiction outside Quebec needs "protection" from Quebec?

Downtown Ottawa streets? From Gatineau STO passengers getting off buses and walking to work?

Yes - sorry - I have enjoyed this thread - I do think it presents many of the current and real dilemmas - it is sometimes exhausting so I decided to parachute in more on the Macron comment (and I would have done the same if some Anglophone thought that Boris Johnson cared about what was going on in Ontario regarding the English language)... but since I'm doing a driveby shooting - by jurisdiction I inferred groups... if any community or group in Quebec wants to put up a solely English or German or Italian or Chinese sign - can they? As minorities within the province of Quebec - do they not warrant the same protections and ability to promote their culture that Quebec asks for? Asking for a displaced anglophone 1980s vintage...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Arab-Israelis, I should think.

Yes, that would be more appropriate

All Arab-Israelis are Palestinian, but not all Palestinians are Arab-Israelis.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, that would be more appropriate

All Arab-Israelis are Palestinian, but not all Palestinians are Arab-Israelis.

Not yet at least ... .

[lio45]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Usually people don't spend several paragraphs responding to someone who isn't on their radar...

That was nothing! If I actually cared, I'd have given him a lot more explanation than just "believe whatever fantasy you want about me, I've tried enough, and don't care enough to continue to attempt get it through your thick troll skull".

[lio45]

Speaking of the Middle East, someone in the other thread had a fantastic idea to solve the problems over there - from now on, let absolutely all Israeli meetings/ceremonies/businesses begin with an acknowledgement they're on Unceded Palestinian Land while nothing else changes but everyone gets to feel good about it. Best of all worlds!

[CivicBlues]

Can we please nip the Quebecois are Palestinians analogy? Lest we give some certain forum members here more ammunition in stating French-Canadians are some sort of repressed minority.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Montreal is the beating heart of Canadian bilingualism (not just the official version) and multiculturalism. Sadly it’s true nature has been artificially repressed, much to its detriment. In fact, things are probably on track for another round of hammering the square peg into the round hole.

Montreal's bilingualism only exists because of French language laws. Before Bill 101, bilingualism was a one-way street because nearly all anglophones were unilingual. That's changed but only because of government pressure. If you made Montreal officially bilingual, it would slowly become like Ottawa, where the French language is pretty much non-existent outside of government offices and a few odd places around town.

What makes Montreal unique is that it's a multicultural, multilingual city that exists within a predominantly francophone context. That requires a certain amount of intervention to maintain, because in this country the playing field between English and French has never been level.

[GreaterMontréal]

They will push for Bill 101 to be applied to businesses under Federal jurisdiction throughout the province.

the mayors of the 6 largest cities in the province have united to demand the application of this change.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Can we please nip the Quebecois are Palestinians analogy? Lest we give some certain forum members here more ammunition in stating French-Canadians are some sort of repressed minority.

You’ve got this wrong.

Quebeckers are Palestinians. Québécois are Israelis. The rest of us are Arabs.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Quebec is a small ethnic state surrounded by 350 million anglophone North Americans, and also has a minority within it's borders which parallels the surrounding majority. Quebec may not be militarily threatened by the surrounding English speakers in North America, but certainly feels culturally threatened, and is worried about the loyalties of the immigrants arriving into the province. To deal with this threat, Quebec has introduced measures to ensure the dominance of it's language and culture.

Well it's not as though it's totally anglophone as soon as you leave Quebec for your province or mine.

The biggest threat to the French language in Quebec since Confederation has always been big businesses. But language laws do a pretty good job of preventing large companies from operating mainly in English.

[Architype]

Can we now have a special thread for every province?