Middlesex County Courthouse at the Forks

[FazDeH]

Have we ever seen any renderings of the York proposal? All I remember hearing was what was repeated in the article. "A very large development"

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by FazDeH

Have we ever seen any renderings of the York proposal? All I remember hearing was what was repeated in the article. "A very large development"

No, I don't think they are that far down the road on what the want to do there yet. I mean, Ali Soufan probably has a concept drawing sitting in a desk drawer of what he wants to do there but given how busy they are, they probably aren't in a rush either.

[haljackey]

I am still perplexed as to what they'll do with the location. For sure the original facade will be kept and integrated. Maybe something similar to the Delta Armories?

I'll be looking at this one with a lot of curiosity. This + the health unit move means huge changes are coming to this area of downtown.

[TallerIsBetter]

I am only guessing, but there is a lot of land at play. They could renovate the inside of the old courthouse into something else (offices, boutique hotel, whatever) and preserve the outside. Part of the concept of preserving the courthouse could be significant bonusing to allow the rest of the site go VERY tall.

I'd speculate one option would be to do a 30 story, 400 foot tall office tower with a good size floorplate right at the corner of King and Ridout, and that could be the new city hall and the new Middlesex county offices, if they want to (they did say they were thinking of new offices outside London). Doing this could mean the project gets the 125 Million set aside by the City for the new City Hall, plus some additional pot of cash from Trudeau's magic money machine (just say the project tackles climate change). I personally think this is NOT the best spot for a City Hall,.as they don't deserve to have a home at the prime Downtown location. They really should be elsewhere.

The land to the west could support a 55+ story condo/rental, with another 35 - 40 story condo/rental/hotel as the furthest west tower.

Conversely, it could have a lesser office component or maybe a hotel right at Ridout and King, but still with a pair of very tall buildings to the west, overlooking the forks.

This is the prime residential location in the city. People are fleeing Toronto and Vancouver and cashing in and could buy a nice condo overlooking the Forks and put the rest in their TSFA.

York didn't spend 36 million or whatever it was to put up a couple of 12 floor Commie blocks. There is an opportunity here for an iconic development, even to the point where it is becomes the identified world wide image of London Ontario.

Opportunity is there, if there is vision, and a path to do it.

[Djeffery]

I think York will ultimately have their own offices in the courthouse building, and possibly lease space out depending on their own needs. If the city is interested in putting a new city hall on that property, and I think that would be a great spot for it, that would give York some significant bargaining power on other projects they have in the pipeline (possibly some type of affordable housing project on the site of York's current office location on Richmond and Bathurst).

Other than a city hall though, I can't see a market for a large scale office building, even there. Not with the way remote workplaces have taken off. I mean, they could probably build a 15-20s office and cannibalize other buildings around downtown just based on location. But I don't think that's a good use of the land or good for downtown. It will be interesting to watch over the coming years.

[TallerIsBetter]

I agree without a City Hall the focus of the development should be very high density residential with the finest design possible. Something architecturally great.

There could be some market for a mixed use right on the corner of King and Ridout. I can think of the Blythe high school for the Knights (with gym and weight room, etc), some fresh AAA lawyers offices and other services like that (wealth management, etc.) who specifically benefit from the location. Probably under 10 floors worth, with an opportunity for other mixed use above.

I've also always thought that an adjacent hotel would have been the cherry on top of the JLC/Bud gdns/CG Market development, but too bad that wasn't already in place. Who knows what the market be for that in the future.

[jammer139]

I agree the site calls for iconic high rise towers incorporating the existing courthouse and jail building. The idea that the county would want to keep their county office in the city is less likely. I would expect them to use the next 5 years to locate and design a new modern county seat building in one of the centrally located towns like Strathroy, Mt Bridges, Komoka or Delaware. Most likely combining it with some combination of a community centre, library, pool, YMCA, arena, LTC, childcare. As for London City Hall I hope they put an end to the $13M study to build a new City Hall given the massive upheaval WFH has been due to Covid19. The rational pre covid was the current City Hall was running out of space and now that is gone for a generation if not forever. $13M would likely buy the Market Tower complex from the Landlord. The empty Royal Bank building is likely $10M more and you have all the space needed for a City Hall annex. Building a Taj Mahal City Hall at the forks is a waste of money. Which is likely what many at City Hall were planning. Hopefully that thinking can be put to rest. Property tax increases were already double the inflation rate pre covid and must be reduced.

[MolsonExport]

Demand for top-dollar office space in London will be depressed for at least a decade, and we shouldn't expect any office towers to rise for at least that time frame.

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Demand for top-dollar office space in London will be depressed for at least a decade, and we shouldn't expect any office towers to rise for at least that time frame.

I would agree, except that the province is apparently looking for a lot of office space in London. https://lfpress.com/business/local-b...n-office-space

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by TallerIsBetter

The land to the west could support a 55+ story condo/rental, with another 35 - 40 story condo/rental/hotel as the furthest west tower.

Why not a 100+ story tower? Maybe 150?

[TallerIsBetter]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Why not a 100+ story tower? Maybe 150?

Because that would be way out of scale. We have a 423 foot tower under construction currently. Going to 500 or even 600 at the high end isn't that much more.

You realize the parking lot just Budweiser Garden is currently zoned for 150 meters?

And a lot of developers are currently wanting to go higher. For example, The One at Young and Bloor is under construction, and approved for 85. They have gone back and are asking for an increase to 94.

[jammer139]

LFP article on York's plans for property. - https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...ue-to-covid-19

[GreatTallNorth2]

Looks like London has lots of towers in our future. We can only hope the design gets better over time.

[bolognium]

Quote form the above article:

"It (York Developments) also recently bought property at 543-547 Ridout St., the former Big Brothers Big Sisters of London building near Harris Park, from Lerners law firm for $2.2 million. York plans a highrise on that site but will not build there for at least five years, Soufan said."

Was this news to anyone else? First tidbit I've heard about this.

[Djeffery]

Yeah I saw that too and was the first I heard of it as well. Ali Soufan must have some kind of bank account and lines of credit for all the property he owns right now that isn't bringing anything back in yet.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Why not a 100+ story tower? Maybe 150?

because london is a city of 400K, and there is absolutely no economic case to be made for a 100+ storey tower, in a slow-growing city with very few geographic constraints on growth.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

because london is a city of 400K, and there is absolutely no economic case to be made for a 100+ storey tower, in a slow-growing city with very few geographic constraints on growth.

Forgive my sarcasm

[MolsonExport]

whoops, I confused you with "tallerisbetter"

[jammer139]

Site on Ridout is rather small and geologically constrained by the steep forested slope to the west down to Harris Park. City would likely limit the Ridout side easement so any building would have to be set back to the current building footprint you see with the building immediately to the north. This would have to be a rather narrow building to fit on the lot. I don't see York Dev having this high on their list of priorities to build with so many other proposals on their table.


- Remainder of the Boswick/Southdale buildings
- 10s - Richmond and Sunningdale - NE corner

- 17s - Wonderland north of Fanshawe
- 28s - King St
- 28s? - Anne St
- 6s - College St
- ??s - Dundas St beside funeral home site

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

whoops, I confused you with "tallerisbetter"

Lol, yes I like tall buildings but I'm not as optimistic as TallerIsBetter.