Atlantic Canada Regional Transportation Thread

[josh_cat_eyes]

Yeah it doesn’t make sense for there to be high speed rail in the maritimes but in the Windsor-Quebec city corridor it is badly needed. My point is that you could take a train to Quebec City and then take a high speed train to Montreal or Ontario.

A Saint John - Moncton - Halifax train route would make a lot of sense too though.

[someone123]

I think if Canada had a well-managed passenger rail system and there were good maintenance and incremental improvements to the railways it wouldn't be considered far-fetched to contemplate some trains around the Maritimes that go 200 km/h. In Europe there are routes like that running to terminal small cities like Umea and Oulu.

Congestion on the highways is not a prerequisite. The train is a different mode of transport. It allows people to work or relax instead of driving, you don't need a car, it doesn't get stuck in city traffic, it can hypothetically go much faster, and it does relatively well in inclement weather.

It's amazing how many people take The Ocean despite how bad the schedule is and how slow it is.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think if Canada had a well-managed passenger rail system and there were good maintenance and incremental improvements to the railways it wouldn't be considered far-fetched to contemplate some trains around the Maritimes that go 200 km/h. In Europe there are routes like that running to terminal small cities like Umea and Oulu.

Congestion on the highways is not a prerequisite. The train is a different mode of transport. It allows people to work or relax instead of driving, you don't need a car, it doesn't get stuck in city traffic, it can hypothetically go much faster, and it does relatively well in inclement weather.

It's amazing how many people take The Ocean despite how bad the schedule is and how slow it is.

That's the definition of a pipe dream, though. Cities that are on average ninety minutes apart by car no matter the time of day or year could not support this. There's not even much movement between the cities by weekday travelers, no one commutes much farther than Hampton to Saint John. And if the train is making stops in like, Sussex, Truro, or Oromocto, it's definitely taking forever.

The Ocean is a novelty and is not suitable for most personal or any business travel. It runs infrequently for a reason. Our freight lines are in terrible shape and need improvement to keep goods off the roads.

[Taeolas]

A Saint John - Moncton - Halifax route is such a no-brainer idea, it should've been done decades ago, and I still hope it will be launched eventually, especially with Saint John's resurgence. Once that route is established, a link to Bangor/Portland, and link to Freddy and maybe Sydney would probably make sense. Along with daily service to Montreal.

But to start, yeah SJ-Halifax is probably the main priority for Maritime rail service now, with improving the Ocean as a secondary priority.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think if Canada had a well-managed passenger rail system and there were good maintenance and incremental improvements to the railways it wouldn't be considered far-fetched to contemplate some trains around the Maritimes that go 200 km/h. In Europe there are routes like that running to terminal small cities like Umea and Oulu.

Sure, but we all know what the main difference is between Europe and NA when it comes to travel and lifestyle mentality.

Originally Posted by someone123

It's amazing how many people take The Ocean despite how bad the schedule is and how slow it is.

Lots of people with time to kill, apparently.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

A Saint John - Moncton - Halifax route is such a no-brainer idea, it should've been done decades ago, and I still hope it will be launched eventually, especially with Saint John's resurgence.

Saint John's resurgence be damned, there's only one entity that controls the province that needs to approve it/let it happen.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Saint John's resurgence be damned, there's only one entity that controls the province that needs to approve it/let it happen.

Are you implying that any potential rail passenger service to Saint John requires Irvings blessing???

If so, why? I know that branch line from Moncton down to SJ is used by oil trains from the west, but there aren't so many trains on the line that a 2-3x daily rail liner would interfere with.

[adamuptownsj]

A link from Saint John to Bangor by rail would require truly gigantic subsidies to operate and would have very very few people use it.

On that note, NB and northern New England need to collectively push for a freight rail/highway east-west corridor from St Stephen to the I-91 or wherever. From what I remember this would put Maritime products nearly hours closer to the Great Lakes and give NB a second proper connection to the US market.

Passenger could conceivably follow this, but replacing at minimum the Airport Road with 80 miles of 4-lane highway and two rail tracks would be a massive boost for the Atlantic economy. Hell, it would be worth eating much of the costs and letting Maine toll it.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Are you implying that any potential rail passenger service to Saint John requires Irvings blessing???

If so, why???

No reason...New Brunswick Southern Railway totally didn't just let Fredericton's train station rot away for decades until public pressure led to refurbishment or anything like that.

Would not shock me if the overlords who have a vested interest in gas stations and highway rest stops would like to see NBers continue to use cars instead of being provided the mere option of passenger railway service.

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

A link from Saint John to Bangor by rail would require truly gigantic subsidies to operate and would have very very few people use it.

Nobody would use this service. The bus trips for shopping in Bangor ended forever ago. If people are looking to travel to Boston or beyond they'd simply fly. Can't imagine too many people are looking to spend a day travelling to Portland when they can drive in half the time.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by JHikka

No reason...New Brunswick Southern Railway totally didn't just let Fredericton's train station rot away for decades until public pressure led to refurbishment or anything like that.

Would not shock me if the overlords who have a vested interest in gas stations and highway rest stops would like to see NBers continue to use cars instead of being provided the mere option of passenger railway service.


Nobody would use this service. The bus trips for shopping in Bangor ended forever ago. If people are looking to travel to Boston or beyond they'd simply fly. Can't imagine too many people are looking to spend a day travelling to Portland when they can drive in half the time.

If you could take the train to Bangor or Portland for a reasonable price I think more people would take this than you’d think. Especially for the large concerts these cities host. It costs a lot of money for bands to cross the border so you see a lot of bands playing close to the Canadian border.

Unfortunately there is currently no Amtrak connection north of Brunswick, Maine so they would need to extend that up to Bangor before it would be feasible to have a Canadian extension. It’s also unfortunate that an extension to Bangor is not in the works under Joe Biden’s Amtrak expansion plans. They do however plan on extending the line to Rockland so perhaps Bangor would be the next most logical stop.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

Unfortunately there is currently no Amtrak connection north of Brunswick, Maine so they would need to extend that up to Bangor before it would be feasible to have a Canadian extension. It’s also unfortunate that an extension to Bangor is not in the works under Joe Biden’s Amtrak expansion plans. They do however plan on extending the line to Rockland so perhaps Bangor would be the next most logical stop.

Rockland and not Bangor? That doesn't make much sense. Rockland isn't that big, and Bangor is only another 100 km distant. It would make much more sense to me to include Bangor as the Amtrak terminus in Maine, especially since Bangor is the principle centre for northern Maine.

Amtrak serves Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal by cross border connections. I know it is fanciful, but just imagine if Amtrak also served Halifax as well. Just imagine if you could take the train to Boston! Right now, if you can't drive or don't own a car, the only option to go to Boston is to take the bus to Halifax and fly from there, or do a connecting flight in Montreal or Toronto. Our cross border public transportation options here on the east coast are simply horrible at present.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Sure, but we all know what the main difference is between Europe and NA when it comes to travel and lifestyle mentality.

I don't think the basis is just culture or attitudes. Competent administration and reliable maintenance/investment are just as important if not more important; people use what is most desirable, they don't have religious convictions for or against modes of transportation, though some modes can develop reputations over time. There was a time when North America had better infrastructure than Europe in pretty much every way (with the US being better than Canada and areas like NYC being amazing) but a lot of it has since fallen apart due to poor governance and poor administration (e.g. NYC corruption). Canada could restore the railways a bit with some legal changes and better management. There should be public railways (the physical routes that sustain natural monopolies) while operators like CN or VIA should bid for that service. 200 km/h rail in the Maritimes is many many steps beyond that but it's along that path.

I think governments in general should take public transport more seriously in Canada. Not just within metro areas but between cities and in rural areas. A lot of people don't have cars and have trouble getting around, and there are major network and economic spinoff effects to keeping the overall transport system running well. It even promotes things like national unity. We have a grade D transport system with lots of congestion in cities, almost nothing on the ground between those islands of congestion except highways, and airports that take forever to get through.

[Aging Hipster]

• Video Link

This is a great video about how HSR would be viable from Toronto to Montreal (in fact it's kind of a no-brainer) but it also shows what kind of population size and distance make sense for HSR. Unfortunately we don't have either here in the Maritimes. I would love an awesome train network here but it just doesn't pencil out.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Aging Hipster

Unfortunately we don't have either here in the Maritimes. I would love an awesome train network here but it just doesn't pencil out.

The thing is the current train service is so bad that even semi-normal train service would be a tremendous improvement. If you want to go from Halifax to Montreal by train your effective travel speed is about 35 km/h right now and you can only leave at 1 specific time during a week (maybe it will be 2 times soon).

If people could just take a train from Moncton to Halifax that went 120 km/h reliably most of the time, a couple times per day, it would be a radically better service.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

If you could take the train to Bangor or Portland for a reasonable price I think more people would take this than you’d think. Especially for the large concerts these cities host. It costs a lot of money for bands to cross the border so you see a lot of bands playing close to the Canadian border.

Don't think we'll be building a rail service so that people can go to concerts in Maine any time soon.

Originally Posted by someone123

Canada could restore the railways a bit with some legal changes and better management. There should be public railways (the physical routes that sustain natural monopolies) while operators like CN or VIA should bid for that service. 200 km/h rail in the Maritimes is many many steps beyond that but it's along that path.

Absolutely, but none of this changes the geographic challenges that Canada has over Europe - namely length of distances travelled and densities therein. Taking a train through Restigouche isn't exactly the same as going through the Rhine, you know? Connecting Maritime cities is one thing, but connecting the Maritimes to the rest of Canada with decent frequency is an exceptional hurdle.

Originally Posted by someone123

I think governments in general should take public transport more seriously in Canada.

Absolutely, but it's easier to pass that buck along and instead focus on middle-class Canadians with automobiles. If you're building trains in the Maritimes you'll be faced with a lot of NIMBYs asking why you're supporting public transport for lower-income [sic] train riders, even if that isn't actually the case whatsoever. Public bus service in these cities get the same flak ("why do we fund them if they lose money?")

It would help if large-scale print media on the East Coast wasn't collectively against these sorts of ideas, but alas.

Originally Posted by someone123

If people could just take a train from Moncton to Halifax that went 120 km/h reliably most of the time, a couple times per day, it would be a radically better service.

This should be something we already have. Unfortunately...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Absolutely, but none of this changes the geographic challenges that Canada has over Europe - namely length of distances travelled and densities therein. Taking a train through Restigouche isn't exactly the same as going through the Rhine, you know? Connecting Maritime cities is one thing, but connecting the Maritimes to the rest of Canada with decent frequency is an exceptional hurdle.

Right but you can look at similar areas like northern Scandinavia outside of the major cities and you don't need to look only at Europe. There are also former Soviet areas in Central Asia that seem to have better rail infrastructure than Canada. Uzbekistan has a lot more electrified rail than Canada.

Also the Maritimes used to have much better train service even in the 1980's and 90's. The main cities in the Maritimes are well within the range where a few trains a day running at decent speeds would be justifiable. They don't happen because of an unfortunate mix of railway monopolies and historical events that made it hard to recover from cutbacks. It's not because there's insufficient demand around central NS or southern NB.

(I think we are largely in agreement...)

[someone123]

The rail discussion in the Maritimes reminds me of the bad old days of transit discussion in Halifax. In the bad old days there, the city was basically asleep at the wheel, officials talked about very modest bus tweaks that could never offer a long-term solution, and then the "enthusiast" discussion would was derailed by people talking about how Halifax needs 100 km of subways.

If railways in the Maritimes were managed well there would be questions like which segments should have some sidings put in or which at-grade crossings or signals should get upgraded to cut a few minutes off the trips, which towns should or shouldn't get a stop, etc. And over the years the network would slowly improve with a greater extent and frequencies and better speed and reliability.

I also maintain that part of the problem is that Maritime trains are managed out of Montreal. I don't think it's a mistake that the 1 train in the region that's ostensibly for Halifax or Moncton actually serves a weird route through northern NB and Quebec and goes to Montreal while Saint John and Fredericton are completely left out. I don't think this is what people living in the Maritimes primarily want for service. Maritimers should demand their own control of their trains again just like their highways. Make a new company for regional transport (including bus that will connect up with the trains), put it in Moncton like the old railway, start lawsuits to open up the physical railways, and get NS and NB to provide funding so the money does not go Ottawa -> Quebec-based crown corp.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

The Maritimes used to have much better train service even in the 1980's and 90's. The main cities in the Maritimes are well within the range where a few trains a day running at decent speeds would be justifiable. They don't happen because of an unfortunate mix of railway monopolies and historical events that made it hard to recover from cutbacks. It's not because there's insufficient demand around central NS or southern NB.

Indeed. My father worked for CNR, and my family took the train everywhere. In the late 1960s, we used to make connections in Moncton when travelling from PEI, and I can clearly remember having three passenger trains at a time lined up on sidings at the Moncton train station as they all converged to make connections with the Ocean Limited. The train station was a hive of activity!

There is a golden opportunity right now to recapture some of this past glory thanks to the global warming crisis. Air travel is energy intensive, and long distance automobile travel will be at least a little more cumbersome and inefficient than it used to be as we move towards EVs. Regional intercity train travel might start to make sense again.

[Smevo]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

A Saint John - Moncton - Halifax route is such a no-brainer idea, it should've been done decades ago, and I still hope it will be launched eventually, especially with Saint John's resurgence. Once that route is established, a link to Bangor/Portland, and link to Freddy and maybe Sydney would probably make sense. Along with daily service to Montreal.

But to start, yeah SJ-Halifax is probably the main priority for Maritime rail service now, with improving the Ocean as a secondary priority.

I'd love to see passenger rail return to Sydney, but the line would need a lot of investment to get it repaired, as successive provincial governments have paid a subsidy to keep the rail in place, but haven't done anything to ensure it's maintained in any reasonable state.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Smevo

I'd love to see passenger rail return to Sydney, but the line would need a lot of investment to get it repaired, as successive provincial governments have paid a subsidy to keep the rail in place, but haven't done anything to ensure it's maintained in any reasonable state.

One basic question I have is how much it costs per km for the actual physical work (not administration) to keep a basic rail line in good working order. My guess would be that it costs very little, such as $5 per person in Cape Breton per year to keep a basic rail line functional, not counting the trains themselves. I could also see governments wasting more than this on red tape.

[Smevo]

Originally Posted by someone123

...

If railways in the Maritimes were managed well there would be questions like which segments should have some sidings put in or which at-grade crossings or signals should get upgraded to cut a few minutes off the trips, which towns should or shouldn't get a stop, etc. And over the years the network would slowly improve with a greater extent and frequencies and better speed and reliability.

I also maintain that part of the problem is that Maritime trains are managed out of Montreal. I don't think it's a mistake that the 1 train in the region that's ostensibly for Halifax or Moncton actually serves a weird route through northern NB and Quebec and goes to Montreal while Saint John and Fredericton are completely left out. I don't think this is what people living in the Maritimes primarily want for service. Maritimers should demand their own control of their trains again just like their highways. Make a new company for regional transport (including bus that will connect up with the trains), put it in Moncton like the old railway, start lawsuits to open up the physical railways, and get NS and NB to provide funding so the money does not go Ottawa -> Quebec-based crown corp.

I agree completely with these management and ownership statements. The one alternative I might like to see is treating the rail systems like the national highway system, where the provinces own and maintain their own portion of any railway deemed essential national infrastructure. There would be too much push-back from the provinces if this was done now, but if this was put in place and maintained the at the same time and in the same way the Trans-Canada Highway system was done, connections to PEI and Newfoundland would have to be maintained in good working order. I don't know if either province even has any rail line currently, to be honest.