Middlesex County Courthouse at the Forks

jammer139 · #1 Posted **Jul 18, 2019, 11:19 AM**

What is the future of this property?

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...ng-street-site

haljackey · #2 Posted **Jul 18, 2019, 12:34 PM**

Hopefully nothing.

The health unit however can turn into a 50-story skyscraper for all I care.

TallerIsBetter · #3 Posted **Jul 18, 2019, 12:50 PM**

This is potential exciting news. If there are competing bids for the 50 King site it means there is recognition that is is the prime location for a definitive, iconic 50 floor stunning curvy residential tower. Or something close to that ideal!

City buying the old Courthouse could mean a city department going in there - or maybe something that attracts people - maybe in conjunction with Museum London - and tie in with forks redevelopment/Dundas Flex Street. Open to all GOOD ideas on that - something that people want to go to.

Leads into an old fantasy idea for the Forks that makes more sense with more residential towers and population downtown... If Rogers would move the AAA farm team of the Blue Jays here from Buffalo and someone would build a 2 or 3 tier state-of-the-art grandstand that holds 10,000 (and have a level of private boxes - 10,000 is what you need for International League) around the 1st to 3rd base of the existing Labatt Park diamond, you would potentially have the same phenomenon as the sold-out Knights all summer long. Key here is having all the new population downtown within walking distance and have many of them be Toronto transplants who have cashed out and chosen London to settle in as it has an affordable urban vibe with the new downtown population - and even has the Blue Jays... the London Blue Jays!

The more towers going up around the forks will make for a spectacular view from the ball park. A little like Charlotte, NC's downtown AAA park:

https://media.bizj.us/view/img/24082...1178-0-424.jpg

Djeffery · #4 Posted **Jul 18, 2019, 9:16 PM**

While I would love to see the Jays AAA team here, I just can't see anyone stepping up to spend the at least hundred million dollars a decent 10,000 seat stadium would cost here. The stadium in Buffalo seats 16,000, which no doubt helps keep their average attendance in the 8,000 per game range (although it's down a bit this year). I just don't see London supporting to that level for 70 games a year, especially in April and early May. We had AA and they drew in the hundreds many nights and they won a league championship one year. That Charlotte stadium would look good here though, especially with our improving skyline.

jammer139 · #5 Posted **Jul 18, 2019, 9:32 PM**

There was also some talk of building an all new City Hall incorporating the historical building into the design. What would happen to the current City Hall was a question mark thou.

Let's pray that it's not Farhi making the offers. Kiss of Death that would be.

TallerIsBetter · #6 Posted **Jul 18, 2019, 9:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by jammer139

There was also some talk of building an all new City Hall incorporating the historical building into the design. What would happen to the current City Hall was a question mark thou.

Let's pray that it's not Farhi making the offers. Kiss of Death that would be.

I hope they don't put a new City Hall where 50 King is. That is the prime spot for a signature AAAAA curvy 50 storey residential. It would be the height of arrogance and self importance for politicians to think that spot should be theirs.

Putting a City department in the old Courthouse would be fine, but there are a lot of potential spots for a new City Hall. My vote would be the east end of the Queens,Talbot, Fullerton block - would make it a sort of Government Corner. West end of that lot could be a great 30 storey AAA office or 45 storey residential. Then implode the old City Hall and Centennial Hall and put in more residential towers.

TallerIsBetter · #7 Posted **Jul 18, 2019, 9:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Djeffery

While I would love to see the Jays AAA team here, I just can't see anyone stepping up to spend the at least hundred million dollars a decent 10,000 seat stadium would cost here. The stadium in Buffalo seats 16,000, which no doubt helps keep their average attendance in the 8,000 per game range (although it's down a bit this year). I just don't see London supporting to that level for 70 games a year, especially in April and early May. We had AA and they drew in the hundreds many nights and they won a league championship one year. That Charlotte stadium would look good here though, especially with our improving skyline.

Please note I used the word fantasy explicitly for the London Jays rambling. I will point out that the London Tigers were sold out pretty much of the first two years and it only tailed off in the thrird, which had a brutally cool and wet April and early May, IIRC. Their departure was also driven by the very weak dollar during that period (this is the same timeframe when Winnipeg and Quebec both lost their NHL teams, due in large part to the team costs affected by the low dollar).

The "it won't work" argument was tossed around about the Knights before they moved downtown too. If a new grandstand with private boxes and nice amenities were there it could become a destination in and of itself. I agree you'd need someone to pony up big bucks, and would only likely happen if someone with deep pockets made it a labour of love (and they were scheduled mostly on the road for most of April).

Its funny how I dream big dreams for London, but alas, I know they don't have any hope of fruition. Maybe London should be renamed "If only..."

TallerIsBetter · #8 Posted **Jul 19, 2019, 12:20 AM**

My opinion is the site calls for something very much like this Milwaukee tower:

GreatTallNorth2 · #9 Posted **Jul 19, 2019, 6:35 PM**

Love the enthusiasm Taller is Better, but don't think we will see a supertall building on that site. My hope is as follows:

1) Turn the old courthouse into a museum - a building as historic as it should be accessible to everyone. Plus, London has absolutely zero attractions and a city our size should have some kind of tourist attractions for it's own citizens and for tourists. We just had friends from England over to visit us and there was literally no where to take them. We took them downtown and they were bored silly.

2) Tear down the Middlesex County office building thing where the health unit is and either make it more parkland or possibly put a concert hall there. Or you could put an interesting lookout tower in that location. I've been to several cities in europe and a bell tower/lookout tower is very popular - one that you can walk stairs or a circular floor. Make it iconic looking and something that every person who visits London has to do. Really hope the city gets this land and does something great.

ldoto · #10 Posted **Oct 9, 2019, 1:31 PM**

Let the bidding war begin.

Rejecting the unsolicited offers it’s had, Middlesex County is opening its showpiece lands overlooking London’s birthplace to all comers through a call for expressions of interest in the historic property.

Following a closed-door meeting Tuesday, county council decided it will only accept proposals for both 50 King St., now the home of the area public health office which is moving to CitiPlaza, and 399 Ridout St. N., the 19th-century former London courthouse building used as the county’s administration building. Also included is a restored historic jail behind the county building.

Overlooking the forks of the Thames River, where London began, the downtown turf is one of the most historic sites in the city.

The county, for a time, had been talking about building a highrise residential tower on the part of the property where the health unit building stands.

“We understand this is a very valuable property, and we want to make sure that the process is fully transparent,” Middlesex Warden Kurtis Smith said of council’s decision.

“Allowing it to be open through an expression of interest will allow many different developers or individuals to put expressions of interest for the properties,” he said.

Until now, the county hadn’t sought offers. Middlesex had several unsolicited offers to buy or lease the properties, county officials have said. All of them were rejected.

One of those offers is believed to have come from London city hall, with Mayor Ed Holder and some city officials seen leaving the county building in July following a closed-door meeting in which county politicians discussed the future of the properties.

Asked Tuesday whether the city had made a formal offer, Bill Rayburn, the county’s top bureaucrat, said he could not comment since council dealt with all the offers as confidential property matters.

The Middlesex-London Health Unit plans to vacate the building it rents for $600,000 a year at 50 King St. this April.

Smith said the original intent was to decide only what would happen with 50 King, but several offers the county received involved both of its properties, making Tuesday’s vote necessary.

“Council was not looking at doing anything with 399 Ridout St. It wasn’t on our radar to do anything with it. But now that those unsolicited offers came in, we realized we should make sure we are being accountable to ourselves and the public,” he said.

Tuesday’s council motion clears the way for a potential sale of both properties, but Smith insisted that’s not a foregone conclusion.

“Going through this process does not mean that county council will be selling either property,” he said. “It just means that we are going through that process to make sure we have all the options out there for council.”

The call for expressions of interest is expected out in coming weeks and will include some of the terms and criteria council will use to assess offers.

With the health unit’s April 1 move looming, Smith said he expects a decision sooner rather than later.

“We don’t want to see that building sitting empty,” he said. “So this is pressing. It seems like April 1 is a long time away, but all these processes take time, so obviously the sooner the better.”

jjuha@postmedia.com

stevanford1 · #11 Posted **Oct 9, 2019, 1:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Love the enthusiasm Taller is Better, but don't think we will see a supertall building on that site. My hope is as follows:

1) Turn the old courthouse into a museum - a building as historic as it should be accessible to everyone. Plus, London has absolutely zero attractions and a city our size should have some kind of tourist attractions for it's own citizens and for tourists. We just had friends from England over to visit us and there was literally no where to take them. We took them downtown and they were bored silly.

Agreed! It would be great for more museums and attractions to be in London.

jammer139 · #12 Posted **Oct 10, 2019, 10:49 AM**

LFP article - https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...ore-properties

MrSlippery519 · #13 Posted **Oct 10, 2019, 1:15 PM**

Am I missing why some feel it is important for the city to own the land? No chance the courthouse and jail are compromised that are historic sites, however if another developer like Tricar/Old Oak, York, (some new TO player), wanted to buy it and build a show piece building that is the place to do it.

FazDeH · #14 Posted **Jan 16, 2021, 1:35 AM**

Have we ever seen any renderings of the York proposal? All I remember hearing was what was repeated in the article. "A very large development"

Djeffery · #15 Posted **Jan 16, 2021, 2:54 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by FazDeH

Have we ever seen any renderings of the York proposal? All I remember hearing was what was repeated in the article. "A very large development"

No, I don't think they are that far down the road on what the want to do there yet. I mean, Ali Soufan probably has a concept drawing sitting in a desk drawer of what he wants to do there but given how busy they are, they probably aren't in a rush either.

haljackey · #16 Posted **Jan 16, 2021, 4:24 PM**

I am still perplexed as to what they'll do with the location. For sure the original facade will be kept and integrated. Maybe something similar to the Delta Armories?

I'll be looking at this one with a lot of curiosity. This + the health unit move means huge changes are coming to this area of downtown.

TallerIsBetter · #17 Posted **Jan 16, 2021, 5:03 PM**

I am only guessing, but there is a lot of land at play. They could renovate the inside of the old courthouse into something else (offices, boutique hotel, whatever) and preserve the outside. Part of the concept of preserving the courthouse could be significant bonusing to allow the rest of the site go VERY tall.

I'd speculate one option would be to do a 30 story, 400 foot tall office tower with a good size floorplate right at the corner of King and Ridout, and that could be the new city hall and the new Middlesex county offices, if they want to (they did say they were thinking of new offices outside London). Doing this could mean the project gets the 125 Million set aside by the City for the new City Hall, plus some additional pot of cash from Trudeau's magic money machine (just say the project tackles climate change). I personally think this is NOT the best spot for a City Hall,.as they don't deserve to have a home at the prime Downtown location. They really should be elsewhere.

The land to the west could support a 55+ story condo/rental, with another 35 - 40 story condo/rental/hotel as the furthest west tower.

Conversely, it could have a lesser office component or maybe a hotel right at Ridout and King, but still with a pair of very tall buildings to the west, overlooking the forks.

This is the prime residential location in the city. People are fleeing Toronto and Vancouver and cashing in and could buy a nice condo overlooking the Forks and put the rest in their TSFA.

York didn't spend 36 million or whatever it was to put up a couple of 12 floor Commie blocks. There is an opportunity here for an iconic development, even to the point where it is becomes the identified world wide image of London Ontario.

Opportunity is there, if there is vision, and a path to do it.

Djeffery · #18 Posted **Jan 16, 2021, 5:51 PM**

I think York will ultimately have their own offices in the courthouse building, and possibly lease space out depending on their own needs. If the city is interested in putting a new city hall on that property, and I think that would be a great spot for it, that would give York some significant bargaining power on other projects they have in the pipeline (possibly some type of affordable housing project on the site of York's current office location on Richmond and Bathurst).

Other than a city hall though, I can't see a market for a large scale office building, even there. Not with the way remote workplaces have taken off. I mean, they could probably build a 15-20s office and cannibalize other buildings around downtown just based on location. But I don't think that's a good use of the land or good for downtown. It will be interesting to watch over the coming years.

GreatTallNorth2 · #19 Posted **Jan 19, 2021, 3:14 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TallerIsBetter

The land to the west could support a 55+ story condo/rental, with another 35 - 40 story condo/rental/hotel as the furthest west tower.

Why not a 100+ story tower? Maybe 150?

TallerIsBetter · #20 Posted **Jan 19, 2021, 4:01 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Why not a 100+ story tower? Maybe 150?

Because that would be way out of scale. We have a 423 foot tower under construction currently. Going to 500 or even 600 at the high end isn't that much more.

You realize the parking lot just Budweiser Garden is currently zoned for 150 meters?

And a lot of developers are currently wanting to go higher. For example, The One at Young and Bloor is under construction, and approved for 85. They have gone back and are asking for an increase to 94.