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  #10141  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 6:06 AM
denizen467 denizen467 is offline
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^ I totally agree with keeping LSD above ground. Ideally I'd like to have them bury 2 or 3 lanes as express lanes, so that you'd reduce the imposing 8-lane or 10-lane metal cordon of belching, speeding cars (still a mar on the park even if a wonderful ped bridge is constructed), leaving a couple lanes for people wanting the view, wanting to drive at a leisurely pace, or needing to turn. However, making it bi-level is costly, and would probably induce additional traffic onto LSD.

As for Columbus in Grant Park, I am a huge supporter. Whether coming from S LSD, or N Columbus / N LSD, it's quicker than using LSD through the park because the wait on LSD can be interminable - lots of traffic and long traffic lights. If LSD became bi-level within Grant Park, it might become a convenient alternative to Columbus.

However, I love Columbus for the views as well. You can drive Columbus in the park at a leisurely pace, and pull over to pause as much as you want -- no way you can do that on LSD. And the views of the Michigan and Randolph streetwalls are much better from Columbus than from LSD.
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  #10142  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 1:03 PM
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Im going to go against the grain here and say that burying LSD is unneccessary, possibly difficult to engineer and a huge waste of money. LSD through Grant provides sweeping views of the skyline and lake and monumental bookends like the Field that have that magic that Philly's Franklin Parkway and many foreign boulevards have. If you drive and have friends or family in Chicago, an effort is always made to bring them up past McCormick and past Buckingham on LSD (haha, sounds illegal). As long as ped tunnels, architecturally stunning but visually unintrusive bridges or both get built that sufficiently satisfies east-west ped traffic, then LSD can and should stay. In a way it benefits the park and lakefront by adding a hustle bustle sense of electricity. I wouldn't want LSD removed from any part of the lakefront park system for this very same reason. Pedestrians and LSD can coexist just fine with a handful of access improvements.
Agree. Although from a pedestrian point of view, burying the LSD would be great, it would be a huge loss for that wow factor visitors get entering that way. Before I lived in Chicago, I took everyone through here. Passing all the monumental museums and stadiums lit up at night then and then the huge skyline before you with the lake to the right, it was very powerful.
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  #10143  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
^ I totally agree with keeping LSD above ground. Ideally I'd like to have them bury 2 or 3 lanes as express lanes, so that you'd reduce the imposing 8-lane or 10-lane metal cordon of belching, speeding cars (still a mar on the park even if a wonderful ped bridge is constructed), leaving a couple lanes for people wanting the view, wanting to drive at a leisurely pace, or needing to turn. However, making it bi-level is costly, and would probably induce additional traffic onto LSD.

As for Columbus in Grant Park, I am a huge supporter. Whether coming from S LSD, or N Columbus / N LSD, it's quicker than using LSD through the park because the wait on LSD can be interminable - lots of traffic and long traffic lights. If LSD became bi-level within Grant Park, it might become a convenient alternative to Columbus.

However, I love Columbus for the views as well. You can drive Columbus in the park at a leisurely pace, and pull over to pause as much as you want -- no way you can do that on LSD. And the views of the Michigan and Randolph streetwalls are much better from Columbus than from LSD.
You know, I actually like that idea better than completely burying LSD. And it would likely be cheaper than buryin the entire thing, because a stacked roadway that's only 4 lanes each would be easier.

I don't know that it would induce more traffic, especially if they used the a controlled exit light to move the traffic through the area.

As it is, I just hate going to Buckingham Fountain and seeing a sea of cars in front of a sea of boats before seeing a sea of blue water.

As for Columbus...I hate it.
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  #10144  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 6:30 PM
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Would it ever be practical to bury, though? Considering it's on lakefront landfill? Granted there are the parking garages, but I think the grade is higher there.
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  #10145  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 7:07 PM
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That's what I was saying. I think a tunnel would be questionable from an engineering standpoint. So much so that it more than likely wouldn't be practical or financially feasible.
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  #10146  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 7:22 PM
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Would it ever be practical to bury, though? Considering it's on lakefront landfill? Granted there are the parking garages, but I think the grade is higher there.
Is it all that much different than a parking garage? It's still 25 ft or so above Lake Michigan from an elevation standpoint. Either way, it's just a dream. There's no money there for it.
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  #10147  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 7:33 PM
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Hairpin Lofts groundbreaking

http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en...ldingproj.html

City, developer break ground for redevelopment of landmark building; projet combines transti-oriented development with affordable housing, community arts center, new retail

Officials from the Department of Community Development today joined members of the development team and community representatives to break ground for an innovative project that will transform a mostly vacant Chicago landmark building into affordable housing and bring a community arts center to the Logan Square community.

The Hairpin Lofts and Logan Square Community Arts Center will transform and restore the landmark Morris B. Sachs Building at 2800 N. Milwaukee Ave. and is a project that combines affordable housing, historic preservation, environmental sustainability, transit-oriented development, new retail opportunities and the arts.

Located at the prominent Six Corners intersection of Diversey, Milwaukee and Kimball avenues, Hairpin Lofts and the Logan Square Community Arts Center will bring 28 new residential loft units, 25 of which will be affordable to households earning at or below 30% to 60% of the area median income, or $22,600 to $45,240 for a family of four.

The second floor will be home to the new, 8,000 square foot Logan Square Arts Center and an outdoor patio deck. The first floor will contain four market-rate retail units totaling over 7,000 square feet.
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  #10148  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 7:43 PM
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Wrigleyville project is no mall invasion; foes' worst fears are unfounded, but planned complex across from Wrigley Field still needs tweaks


May 22, 2010



Read More: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune....tail-comp.html

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Thousands of people are getting all steamed up about a controversial plan for an eight-story hotel, apartment and retail complex across the street from Wrigley Field. On Facebook, a group called “People Against the ‘Malling of Wrigleyville’ “ is sounding the alarm, as if big-box retailers and a mall named “Cubby World” were about to set up shop at the corner of Clark and Addison, right across the street from the Friendly Confines. Here’s some friendly advice for these folks, whose numbers as of Friday morning had grown to more than 10,000: Chill!

In reality, the proposed development, which is called Addison Park on Clark, has few attributes of car-oriented suburbia. It is not — repeat, not — a mall. The real issue is what sort of urban character is heading Wrigleyville’s way. Will the design respect the neighborhood’s edgy vitality? Or will it give us something like the banal Chicago of the North Bridge retail district, where one beige-colored, concrete-faced monstrosity lines up against another.
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  #10149  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by spyguy View Post
http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en...ldingproj.html

City, developer break ground for redevelopment of landmark building; projet combines transti-oriented development with affordable housing, community arts center, new retail

Officials from the Department of Community Development today joined members of the development team and community representatives to break ground for an innovative project that will transform a mostly vacant Chicago landmark building into affordable housing and bring a community arts center to the Logan Square community.

The Hairpin Lofts and Logan Square Community Arts Center will transform and restore the landmark Morris B. Sachs Building at 2800 N. Milwaukee Ave. and is a project that combines affordable housing, historic preservation, environmental sustainability, transit-oriented development, new retail opportunities and the arts.

Located at the prominent Six Corners intersection of Diversey, Milwaukee and Kimball avenues, Hairpin Lofts and the Logan Square Community Arts Center will bring 28 new residential loft units, 25 of which will be affordable to households earning at or below 30% to 60% of the area median income, or $22,600 to $45,240 for a family of four.

The second floor will be home to the new, 8,000 square foot Logan Square Arts Center and an outdoor patio deck. The first floor will contain four market-rate retail units totaling over 7,000 square feet.
Excellent. I'd love to see more and more of these projects - if more developers can see the benefit of a building rehab vs. a tear-down+new construction (which isn't always the cheaper alternative) there is hope yet for responsible and responsive market growth, even in a still-downturn economy.
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  #10150  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 10:14 PM
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^Market growth? Did you miss this part:

The City is providing substantial financial support for the project, including the sale of the land, valued at $3.9 million, for a dollar, and $7.1 million in TIF assistance from the Fullerton / Milwaukee TIF.


So the city is paying $390,000 per unit—for a rehab that someone else will own and get the future rent from.
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  #10151  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
^Market growth? Did you miss this part:

The City is providing substantial financial support for the project, including the sale of the land, valued at $3.9 million, for a dollar, and $7.1 million in TIF assistance from the Fullerton / Milwaukee TIF.


So the city is paying $390,000 per unit—for a rehab that someone else will own and get the future rent from.
Yes, I did read that, thank you. However I wasn't referring to this project specifically, I was speaking about future developments. Did you miss that part in my post?
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  #10152  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 10:46 PM
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Additionally, Mr. D., what do you think should be done with this building instead? I'd like to get your input on a possible alternative. Is doing nothing better than doing something?
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  #10153  
Old Posted May 26, 2010, 11:50 PM
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I'm not sure why you'd say per unit when there's an arts center with 30 permanent jobs involved as well as exterior rehabilitation. Isn't this a much better use of TIF than the usual developer handout?
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  #10154  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 1:00 AM
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I'm not sure why you'd say per unit when there's an arts center with 30 permanent jobs involved as well as exterior rehabilitation. Isn't this a much better use of TIF than the usual developer handout?
I would say it's not a poor use of a TIF per se since there is some tangible community benefit, but in general it's pretty reasonable to question why the city taxpayers can kick in a substantial "equity" contribution of several million dollars (and free land) to get a project rolling, but have no prospect of seeing an ROI on the project in any reasonable time frame (i.e. if you discount the future marginal tax revenue after the TIF expires its hardly worth much).

Last edited by VivaLFuego; May 27, 2010 at 1:10 AM.
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  #10155  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 3:12 AM
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It's not the worst use of TIF money ever, but given the location I have to wonder if the best strategy might not simply be to wait for the market to catch up to it. With no balconies or parking, it's true that it might not be snapped up for market-rate residential. So perhaps a good backup strategy might be to offer it as raw space for artists' lofts, and build affordable housing units somewhere else for—I don't know—only $200,000 each? According to Trulia, the 2010 median sales price for homes in Logan Square was only $165,000.

Meanwhile, put the arts center in the Logan Square Auditorium where it belongs.
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  #10156  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 7:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sentinel View Post
Excellent. I'd love to see more and more of these projects - if more developers can see the benefit of a building rehab vs. a tear-down+new construction (which isn't always the cheaper alternative) there is hope yet for responsible and responsive market growth, even in a still-downturn economy.
Part of me applauds this; the other fears it will be blight within 5 years after completion...time will tell
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  #10157  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 1:40 PM
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This is a horrible waste of tax payer money unless you put an unlimited value on the community aspects of the project. If you are concerned about it getting torn down or no one wanting to develop it otherwise just look at Six Corners further north with the below development in an almost identical building.

http://www.kleeplaza.com/index.html

How is it "not feasible to renovate at market rates" in Logan Square where the building is a block or two from the EL, much closer to downtown, and in a much "hiper" neighborhood, but super feasible to renovate virtually the building 1.5 miles to the north and about .75 miles from the El and in a much less exciting neighborhood?
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  #10158  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 3:21 PM
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How is it "not feasible to renovate at market rates" in Logan Square where the building is a block or two from the EL, much closer to downtown, and in a much "hiper" neighborhood, but super feasible to renovate virtually the building 1.5 miles to the north and about .75 miles from the El and in a much less exciting neighborhood?
The Klee Building was sold to the developer by the city for much less than it was worth and it received TIF.
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  #10159  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 4:47 PM
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Look at the satellite views of the two. They're both deco flatirons - that's about all that's in common. The Klee is longer and less narrow; floor plates are much smaller here. The Klee is at Six Corners and relatively close to the Kennedy, several Metra stops, and shopping like Jewel, Bally, and Sears are across the street. It also had the ability to add a major addition with a parking garage. The Sachs is by Logan Square, but that's about it, so far. This being such a prominent and attractive but challenging to reuse building makes it a good use of TIF - it is indeed a building that would likely remain blighted but for the use of TIF, and its rehabilitation is likely to have ripple effects by improving the image of the area. I wouldn't be surprised if activity starts on the other gorgeous corners of this intersection once this project happens - it's really the gateway to Logan Square.

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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
This is a horrible waste of tax payer money unless you put an unlimited value on the community aspects of the project. If you are concerned about it getting torn down or no one wanting to develop it otherwise just look at Six Corners further north with the below development in an almost identical building.

http://www.kleeplaza.com/index.html

How is it "not feasible to renovate at market rates" in Logan Square where the building is a block or two from the EL, much closer to downtown, and in a much "hiper" neighborhood, but super feasible to renovate virtually the building 1.5 miles to the north and about .75 miles from the El and in a much less exciting neighborhood?
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  #10160  
Old Posted May 27, 2010, 7:05 PM
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If only buildings of this height and density were encouraged to be the minimum standard within 2 blocks of all "L" stations. That would be 16 square blocks per station, or 1/4 of a square mile.

There are 144 stations, but even if we account for stations that are closer than 4 blocks apart, there must be about 120 stations that could reasonably be surrounded by dense buildings. If they were strongly encouraged and enabled to be surrounded with densities similar to the *average* density of a mid-sized European central city (for this example, let's just say 48,000 per square mile, or about 12,000 people within 2 blocks of each station), leaving plenty of space for lower-density areas in the city. If we just did that, we'd have a minimum of 1.5 million people within an easy walk of existing train stations. Currently, I believe that number is only about 450,000. Imagine how much healthier the CTA would be if it could triple it's train ridership base population. And that could be done without skyscrapers, just with buildings a lot like this one.

Add a few infill stations, end up with two, even three times as many people near some of the stations, and you could easily end up with over 2 million people being within walking distance of existing rails. With that much more ridership, the CTA could add a line or two in dense areas to relieve congestion, and ridership would probably increase more than in just a linear fashion. Densities like that would probably result in overall ridership along the lines of six times what it is now in the long run. You're probably thinking: The brown line and Red Line are already too crowded, how the hell will we manage that?

But that's the point - the Brown and Red Line already have a lot of stations with about 12,000 people within an easy walk. The real growth would be on lines that don't currently have high ridership. The Pink Line, the Green Line, the Orange Line all have enough capacity to absorb significant ridership increases. I've seen 4-car trains running on the Pink Line at rush hour. We'd need more train cars, and maybe new signals to enable 90-second headways on some lines and probably 30-second headways on the Loop, but it's not like they'll all show up overnight - we'd have time to work it out.

Much more money for operations, as trains would run fuller, more often, and we'd get a big boost in population - the city would be able to absorb something on the order of a million people in just 30 square miles of area, without bothering all those 2-flat, single-family-home NIMBY types in the balance of the 200 square miles (okay, so we'd have to work out something with Oak Park and Evanston, etc).

As an example, Toronto's city density is about 50% higher than Chicago's, yet it's subway ridership on a per-station basis is nearly 100% higher than Chicago's. There are other, more complex reasons for that, but a big part of it is that Toronto encourages density near its subway stations.

Where Metra stations and "L" stations are in close proximity, this would benefit Metra, too. And keeping density confined to islands helps keep cars off the road, and helps keep buses flowing nicely in the rest of the city.

Where would be get all these extra urbanites? If we're smart, we'd get most of the new Chicagoans from foreign immigration - people from places where people already know how to live in high densites. We could continue to attract Americans of course, but we're about 600,000 immigrants shy of being as internationally diverse as New York and LA are, so if we managed to get to parity there and continue to attract more Americans, we'd be there.

As a 40-year plan, I think it could work. A million new residents by "L" stations, maybe a a couple hundred thousand more filling in the empty spots in the bungalow belt, and we could be over 4 million just in the city proper by 2050, and arranged in a completely sustainable, livable way.

When is it my turn to be King? ;-)

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